AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[PJetski]

They are not rhetorical questions. Have those situations ever occurred for you in a game? If they occur frequently, there are many other ways to mitigate battleshock:

Lord Celestant on Dracoth has a command ability that makes all units in a huge area around him ignore battleshock
Vandus Hammerhand passively makes units around him ignore battleshock
Celestant Prime has a +1 Bravery aura
Hammers of Sigmar gives all units +1 Bravery
Anvils of the Heldenhammer let you reroll battleshock
Any priest can take Bolster Faith to give a unit battleshock immunity
Pennant of Sigmaron artifact heavily mitigates losses from battleshock

The main reason you use an Ordinator is for his +1 hit aura, and the rest of his kit is so lackluster that it's really not worth considering. I like the Ordinator and the Azyros and use both in different kinds of lists. I am not arguing in favour of one or the other, they are too different for a direct comparison - I am just pointing out that the Ordinators command ability is basically worthless because it's so niche.

"there's no convincing you" Failing to convince me doesn't mean I can't be convinced. That's a disingenuous statement.

[FPC]

So, again, none of those are worth a DIRECT comparison. Celestant and Hammerhand are far more points, and the rest aren’t ignore effects except the priest and that can fail. Plus to my knowledge none of those buff shooting, the core piece that would make them relevant here.

My point was, clearly your mind is made up. Thus, I don’t believe youre open to convincing arguments, view the situation narrowly based on this, and proceed accordingly.  My experience has shown me the Ordinator is very useful.  I’ve had multiple battleshock tests on important units in each game I’ve run SCE (albeit a small sample).  If you think it’s IMPOSSIBLE to have two units need to make important battleshock rolls, fine. I disagree that this is overly situational or conditional but whatever. 

The Ordinator mitigates battleshock AND supports ballistas. All I’m pointing out is that the Ordinator does provide more than the +1 (which you said he does not). And then I don’t have to take other battleshock protections, which come on more expensive (and, really unlrelated to this comparison) models.  Also I still feel like the Ordinator is almost guaranteed to last 2+ turns, where an Azyros almost always won't (barring double turn, but that probably means the Ordinator gets 3+ turns of effect).

I’m not trying to say the Azyros is bad, and I intend to try one once I acquire one.

[HammerOfSigmar]

Well, Azyros has a bubble of 10' rather than 20' of rerolling 1s. I can show some calculation here:

Two ballista with Ordinator: 2*4*1/2*3.5*2/3=9.333  Two ballista with Azyros: 2*4*(1/3+1/6*1/3)*3.5*2/3=7.259

Three ballista with Ordinator: 3*4*1/2*3.5*2/3=14 Three ballista with Azyros: 3*4*(1/3+1/6*1/3)*3.5*2/3=10.888

Hence, if we only consider buffing the ballista, ordinator is better. It's hard to consider the other aspects in maths for me to show your guys. 

[FPC]

5 minutes ago, HammerOfSigmar said:

10' rather than 20'

I think people mean 20” diameter. That’s why I said the ordibator has a 36” battleshock immunity bubble.

[Freejack02]

1 hour ago, HammerOfSigmar said:

Well, Azyros has a bubble of 10' rather than 20' of rerolling 1s. I can show some calculation here:

Two ballista with Ordinator: 2*4*1/2*3.5*2/3=9.333  Two ballista with Azyros: 2*4*(1/3+1/6*1/3)*3.5*2/3=7.259

Three ballista with Ordinator: 3*4*1/2*3.5*2/3=14 Three ballista with Azyros: 3*4*(1/3+1/6*1/3)*3.5*2/3=10.888

Hence, if we only consider buffing the ballista, ordinator is better. It's hard to consider the other aspects in maths for me to show your guys. 

It would be better to account for the point difference in your calculations, otherwise the caveat "but the Azyros is 40 points cheaper" will always be there. 

[Mark Williams]

Just use an azyros and an ordinator.

[Lucur]

 

I never said the Ordinator COULD NOT be useful outside the +1 to hit, it's just for ease of comparison. I also didn't account for a unit of Evocators rerolling 1s thanks to an Azyros

In my mind it's the Azyros' mobility and points that puts him ahead of the Ordinator in general. Not saying the Lord O doesn't have his place though, i merely wanted to elaborate on the numbers. Hence my conclusion that the Ordinator "pays off" for3+ ballistae.

[FPC]

I accept your surrender.

[Future]

3 hours ago, HammerOfSigmar said:

Well, Azyros has a bubble of 10' rather than 20' of rerolling 1s. I can show some calculation here:

Two ballista with Ordinator: 2*4*1/2*3.5*2/3=9.333  Two ballista with Azyros: 2*4*(1/3+1/6*1/3)*3.5*2/3=7.259

Three ballista with Ordinator: 3*4*1/2*3.5*2/3=14 Three ballista with Azyros: 3*4*(1/3+1/6*1/3)*3.5*2/3=10.888

Hence, if we only consider buffing the ballista, ordinator is better. It's hard to consider the other aspects in maths for me to show your guys. 

Two ballista with Ordinator: 0.02745 per point, Two ballista with Azyros: 0.0241966 per point

Three ballista with Ordinator: 0.03181 per point, Three ballista with Azyros: 0.02722 per point

--------------

I don't normally math hammer but what is 3.5*2/3 in this case? I'm guessing 2/3 is just to wound (3+) but what is 3.5? Is this some kind of constant for rend?

[HammerOfSigmar]

1 hour ago, Freejack02 said:

It would be better to account for the point difference in your calculations, otherwise the caveat "but the Azyros is 40 points cheaper" will always be there. 

Well, thing will be more complicated when taking unit points into consideration. As shown in the calculation,  ordinator actually buff the ballista to make 1.5 times damage as they do when without ordinator,  azyros buff the ballista to make 1.166(7/6) times damage as they do when without the azyros. Hence, as the number of ballista increases, the damage difference between  ballista with ordinator and with azyros will become bigger. I don't have a good way to represent the relation between the damage and unit points. I can try a little bit here:

One ballista without buffing can do 4*1/3*3.5*2/3=3.111(28/9) damage

One ballista with ordinator can do 4*1/2*3.5*2/3=4.667(14/3) damage     1.556(14/9) addition damage

One ballista with azyros can do 4*(1/3+1/6*1/3)*3.5*2/3=3.63.(98/27) damage        0.5185(14/27) addition damage

ordinator 140 points   azyros 100 points   

Now compare addition damage/points

                                       with ordinator              with azyros

one ballista                 0.011(1/90)                    0.005185(7/1350)

two ballista                 0.022(2/90)                     0.01037(7/675)

three ballista              0.033(3/90)                    0.01556(7/450)

four ballista                 0.044(4/90)                   0.02074(14/675)

In this very simple model, just considering buffing the ballista, ordinator is still more efficient.  

 The best way to do the comparison is to build a complex math model, which is beyond my ability.

[HammerOfSigmar]

4 minutes ago, Future said:

Two ballista with Ordinator: 0.02745 per point, Two ballista with Azyros: 0.0241966 per point

Three ballista with Ordinator: 0.03181 per point, Three ballista with Azyros: 0.02722 per point

--------------

I don't normally math hammer but what is 3.5*2/3 in this case? I'm guessing 2/3 is just to wound (3+) but what is 3.5? Is this some kind of constant for rend?

For each successful hit roll, the ballista will make actually d6 hits, 3.5 is the average value of d6.

Edited October 30, 2018 by HammerOfSigmar

[Future]

3 minutes ago, HammerOfSigmar said:

For each successful hit roll, the ballista will make actually d6 hits, 3.5 is the average value of d6.

Thanks makes sense. I forgot about that aspect of the ballista.

[Future]

10 minutes ago, HammerOfSigmar said:

The best way to do the comparison is to build a complex math model, which is beyond my ability.

Whats wrong with dividing the damage output total by the points total. That gives you the true trade off cost without complexity in my opinion.

[HammerOfSigmar]

13 minutes ago, Future said:

Whats wrong with dividing the damage output total by the points total. That gives you the true trade off cost without complexity in my opinion.

Maybe I am just too sensitive about math models since having a hard time in statistic classes in college in past years, being criticized by professor on the projects about math models a lot. Actually I also think that the way I did is OK already.

[Fisren]

17 minutes ago, HammerOfSigmar said:

Maybe I am just too sensitive about math models since having a hard time in statistic classes in college in past years, being criticized by professor on the projects about math models a lot. Actually I also think that the way I did is OK already.

just did it to practice warhammer math (and to organize all to a single table) and take a look at using both XD, purely from a buff perspective ordinator covers its value at 3 ballistas, and with both heroes at 4 ballistas. ([dmg]/[total points] probably better reflects worth, as [added dmg]/[hero value] is basically treating the hero as a unit who does the extra shooting dmg?) 

[Synidus]

15 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

Personally, I would cut the Comet - only having a single caster with no bonus to cast makes it a riskier play than I would prefer. If you cut that and 3 Hurricane Raptors, you can snugly fit in 2 Venators and keep 3 Hurricanes. 

If that's not an option, I would choose the Raptors over the Venators. 

Thanks, that's quite an interesting idea. I might just give that a try.

[mmmbbb3]

i feel like stormcast play weaker on low points like 1000 or 1250, is it just me? what do you play on low points?

 

[Mark Williams]

 

50 minutes ago, mmmbbb3 said:

i feel like stormcast play weaker on low points like 1000 or 1250, is it just me? what do you play on low points?

 

 Sce in general, with a handful of notable exceptions, is a jack of all trades, master of none type army. Any army with a book can stomp the floor with them when you run a generic list. You sort of have to abuse some of the best units to do well with them. This is true for basically every point level; you’re probably just noticing it in small games because small armies don’t tend to include some of the better and more eclectic choices, due to generally being still in the “building collection” phase of the hobby.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Mark Williams

[schwabbele]

On 10/29/2018 at 7:27 PM, Black Blade said:

Honestly you could do these calculations pretty easily on your own

Haha, I did already long time ago, the how was regarding on where do we get +1 to hit cheaper? And I hoped @Lucur would come up with some fancy grahps because he mentioned statistics - and I know that if somebody has that figured (statistics) out could  pull of some fancy charts for us :)) Especially when he/she can factor in special thingies for the azyros. 

Anyhow, I am still  for 4 ballista(e)?   + Ordinator and give my opponent a "hard/bad" time. In times of nagash, mortal wound spam  - basically annihilate or die yourself why shouldn't we bring the finest aged cheese we have to the table? 

[Black Blade]

1 hour ago, schwabbele said:

Haha, I did already long time ago, the how was regarding on where do we get +1 to hit cheaper? And I hoped @Lucur would come up with some fancy grahps because he mentioned statistics - and I know that if somebody has that figured (statistics) out could  pull of some fancy charts for us :)) Especially when he/she can factor in special thingies for the azyros. 

Anyhow, I am still  for 4 ballista(e)?   + Ordinator and give my opponent a "hard/bad" time. In times of nagash, mortal wound spam  - basically annihilate or die yourself why shouldn't we bring the finest aged cheese we have to the table? 

I guess I'm being blinded by my own experiences here. I have a pretty casual matched play scene at my the shops I play at. We are competitive but casual; maybe 1 or 2 guys is a try hard like you're mentioning with Nagash and MW spam etc. but we just refuse to play them. I realize now your experience is probably different than mine so by all means do what you need to survive in that situation. Take 4 Ballista, an Ordinator AND an Azyros and then take Anvils Host and fire them off more times than you're normally allowed to shoot in a turn. Good luck to you.

[FPC]

So haven’t seen much discussion here on this lately (point me to page #s if it has!)...

How is Vanguard looking in 2.0? I like the look of hunters, and feel like some scions/compass shenanagins with them and raptors could be cool. Wish there was a foot Aquilor so they could be battle line for cheaper.

Edited October 31, 2018 by FPC

[boombyeyeah]

I had good games with hurricane raptors and aether wings, also I like to stack the charge debuff with the Knight Incantor spell.

I don't have a lord aquilor, but I ll try to convert one out of a Lord Arcanum on gryph

[Synidus]

4 hours ago, FPC said:

So haven’t seen much discussion here on this lately (point me to page #s if it has!)...

How is Vanguard looking in 2.0? I like the look of hunters, and feel like some scions/compass shenanagins with them and raptors could be cool. Wish there was a foot Aquilor so they could be battle line for cheaper.

I've only had one game of AoS 2.0, and i've found them to be quite mobile. Especially now that the lord aquilor can use his command ability more than once in the same turn. I'm adding raptors with hurricane crossbows to my army so that they can also be repositioned over the course of the battle. Hunters are kinda meh, but Palladors are awesome! IMO, the Aquilor's repositioning ability is what makes the vanguard chamber feel like the vanguard chamber.

[Requizen]

18 hours ago, FPC said:

So haven’t seen much discussion here on this lately (point me to page #s if it has!)...

How is Vanguard looking in 2.0? I like the look of hunters, and feel like some scions/compass shenanagins with them and raptors could be cool. Wish there was a foot Aquilor so they could be battle line for cheaper.

The Raptors and Aetherwings are extremely powerful still. Longstrikes are still one of the premier character snipers in the game (especially if you can get rerolls or extra shooting), and Hurricanes got a huge buff with the "set up != move" ruling and better Scions rule. Dropping down 6 Hurricanes with some birds to block for them is a very strong option.

Palladors are, imo, a very reasonable choice now. At 200 they're quite cheap for "heavy cavalry" (they're our lightest cavalry, but heavy compared to most armies), and can be strong mobile support for mounted heroes and just good troubleshooters. A unit of 6 with a Staunch Aquilor can be a really mobile, hard to shift fighting force. 

Hunters are... well they're better now at 120 Battleline, but they're just not great. C grade unit overall. There are certainly some matchups where they can be quite powerful - if you're going against something with squishy Wizards or artillery crew hanging out in the back, they can threaten flanks and be real pests, but there are often better ways to deal with those problems. There doesn't seem to be a role they fill better than other options, sadly.

Edit: That said, they're pretty good for low point games. Aquilor + some Hunters + random Vanguard stuff can be a real terror at the 1000 point or lower level where opponents don't have good screening or all their tools, since the Hunters are reasonable at both melee and ranged. 

Edited November 1, 2018 by Requizen

[Future]

So far I’ve found the best way to play vanguard is to just not use hunters. That said I use them out of stubbornness because rule of cool.