AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion

[Unter]

11 hours ago, Akhelian-Snail said:

Hey fellow Tadpole!

As of right now I'm not too impressed with any of the Isharann heros. But the Soulrender is my favorite fighting wise because he seems the one that can actually swing a bit!

Soulscryers are pivotal to how our lists work, you could make an argument that Tidecaster's table flip is equally central to many lists.

[Azamar]

10 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

Allopex and Leviadon, what do people think of them, why are the sharks rarely seen?

In competitive lists they’re generally left out, I think, because they’re not optimal for your points. The allopex costs the same as a unit of ishlaen or thralls and does much less damage than either. The leviadon has a similar issue- it does good damage but for the points you could have 6 morrsarr , or 30 thralls which would have more versatility  and damage output, albeit without the cover bonus. 

That being said, in a more casual setting I bloody love them both. The allopex does kind of suck, but every so often it does bite the head off an important character, and visually in an Akhelian force it breaks up the sea of eels nicely.  It sounds like people get a bit more mileage with them in larger units at high tide, but I would have though this would make battleshock risky.

The leviadon meanwhile has consistently performed for me. I take it as part of an Akhelian corps which makes it great as a stable core/ rally point for the army, and if you can get it into combat at full health, with lord of the deep on it at high tide, it makes an excellent battering ram.  Plus I get a Great A’tuin vibe off the model. I can’t see me leaving mine out of my list any time soon. 

[Acid_Nine]

11 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

Allopex and Leviadon, what do people think of them, why are the sharks rarely seen?

well, As other people said of the shark, it's because other units are either a lot tougher against rend and can put out more high quality attacks, or because you can get the chaff for the same amount of points and have a wider footprint / more attacks.

that said, I played two games with the allopex and so far I have been surprised. It's nice to have some shooting in a list, and though I only use the three shot profile it did come in handy a few times. It's great for taking a last wound off a bloodcrusher or potshotting that pesky little fanatic your king is about to charge next to. and, in the first game I played with it it managed to survive a khorne lord on a juggernaught long enough for me to bite his head off, which surprised the heck out of me. next game it failed to eat a bunch of grots, but it really did help me win the game when I took out the last fanatic that was definatly going to crush my morrsarrs.

 

so, my thoughts on the allopex is that they are okay. Set them on a backfield objective, take pot shots at units, and don't expect them to match the morrsarr any time soon unless it's high tide and you are super lucky.

[DanielFM]

On 1/10/2019 at 3:34 PM, DanielFM said:

Hi, I'm a new Deepkin player (well, mostly just the owner of a ID battleforce ).

I wanted to know your opinion on one matter: is the Soulrender worth it without Mor'phann and/or Namarti Corps? I like the concept and model, and I would like to use Thralls and Reavers (MSU or not). But in a Fuethan Reverse Tide list (which I would favour) only 1d3 casualties and mediocre CaC punch don't seem like a lot for 100 points.

Any thoughts on this from tournament players?

[Joseph Mackay]

ive played around with 2x Allopex and 2x Leviadon in a list, and although i dont think id run 2 Leviadons again, i like how they did.

if people arent taking them because 'eels are better' then i think that supports my thoughts that eels need to go up in points

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, Joseph Mackay said:

ive played around with 2x Allopex and 2x Leviadon in a list, and although i dont think id run 2 Leviadons again, i like how they did.

if people arent taking them because 'eels are better' then i think that supports my thoughts that eels need to go up in points

It‘s not only that, leviadons are utterly overcosted as are the allopexes. Both eels should go up 10 to 20 pts but Allopexes, Leviadons and Eidolons need to lose quite a chunk of points while Reavers really need to drop to 110 or sth. Of the likes.

[Joseph Mackay]

im not sure id agree with anything being overcosted in the battletome (maybe Reavers i guess, i see no reason to take them when the Allopex and Leviadon have better shooting, though i do like the models), maybe the turtle could drop 20pts just so id have the points to be able to run 4 😛 
eels and volturnos i think are undercosted though (volturnos would be fine if his command abilitiy couldnt be stacked though), one thing i think is inconsistant between the 2 types of eels though, according to the background, the eletr- whatever creates the Ishlaens ignore rend (which is always active) and the Morrsarrs spears (which is once per game). maybe they should tone done the Morrsarr ability but no longer once per game? makes no sence why one is all game and the other is once per game

the sharks, id like a points decrease if taken in units rather than indivauls, but otherwise i think theyre fine. they play like Leviadon-Lite

[DanielFM]

Hi, what do you think of this casual-competitive 2000 points list? Going for variety, the models I like and some competitive synergies.

The idea is Fuethan Reverse Tides. I didn't decide on any traits/relics/spells yet (advice welcome)

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Fuethan

Leaders
Isharann Tidecaster (100)
- General
Isharann Soulscryer (100)
Eidolon of Mathlann, Aspect of the Sea (440)

Battleline
10 x Namarti Reavers (140)
10 x Namarti Thralls (140)
10 x Namarti Thralls (140)

Units
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (160)
1 x Akhelian Allopexes (140)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)

Behemoths
Akhelian Leviadon (380)

Battalions
Akhelian Corps (100)

Endless Spells
Soulsnare Shackles (20)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 100
 

Thanks!

[Arael]

1 hour ago, DanielFM said:

Hi, what do you think of this casual-competitive 2000 points list? Going for variety, the models I like and some competitive synergies.

The idea is Fuethan Reverse Tides. I didn't decide on any traits/relics/spells yet (advice welcome)

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Fuethan

Leaders
Isharann Tidecaster (100)
- General
Isharann Soulscryer (100)
Eidolon of Mathlann, Aspect of the Sea (440)

Battleline
10 x Namarti Reavers (140)
10 x Namarti Thralls (140)
10 x Namarti Thralls (140)

Units
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (160)
1 x Akhelian Allopexes (140)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)

Behemoths
Akhelian Leviadon (380)

Battalions
Akhelian Corps (100)

Endless Spells
Soulsnare Shackles (20)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 100
 

Thanks!

I think there is not enough punch in this list, fuetan inverse tide list are based on their Morrsarr to break the enemy while namarti hold objective, you have only 3 of them,  ishlaen will do the same job of trhall while allopex and leviadon will never be able to do the work of the Morrsarr. 

Moreover u have taken the "defensive"  version of the eidolon  limiting another time the hammer of your list. 

Just my 2 cent. 

[DanielFM]

11 minutes ago, Arael said:

I think there is not enough punch in this list, fuetan inverse tide list are based on their Morrsarr to break the enemy while namarti hold objective, you have only 3 of them,  ishlaen will do the same job of trhall while allopex and leviadon will never be able to do the work of the Morrsarr. 

Moreover u have taken the "defensive"  version of the eidolon  limiting another time the hammer of your list. 

Just my 2 cent. 

Ok, so you think if I changed the Aspect of the Sea for the Aspect of the Storm and the Ishlaen for Morrsarr the list would be slightñy better?

I'm still trying to make my head around how do people take advantage of first turn Flow Tide. Ok, running and shooting (rerolling 1's to hit) with Reavers is the obvious one. But who should run and charge? Morrsarr wouldn't be able to benefit from it and also benefit from High Tide while having charge bonus.

Please explain me if you have it sorted already

[Luke1705]

On 1/11/2019 at 2:11 PM, DanielFM said:

Any thoughts on this from tournament players?

Neither the soulrender nor any of the deepkin battalion are viable if you want to place highly in a tournament setting

 

As far as your list goes, I’d change the sea aspect to storm. I’d also ditch the shark and the turtle, but I assume those are the models that you like that you know aren’t so great

[JackStreicher]

On 1/12/2019 at 1:53 AM, Joseph Mackay said:

im not sure id agree with anything being overcosted in the battletome (maybe Reavers i guess, i see no reason to take them when the Allopex and Leviadon have better shooting, though i do like the models), maybe the turtle could drop 20pts just so id have the points to be able to run 4 😛 
eels and volturnos i think are undercosted though (volturnos would be fine if his command abilitiy couldnt be stacked though), one thing i think is inconsistant between the 2 types of eels though, according to the background, the eletr- whatever creates the Ishlaens ignore rend (which is always active) and the Morrsarrs spears (which is once per game). maybe they should tone done the Morrsarr ability but no longer once per game? makes no sence why one is all game and the other is once per game

the sharks, id like a points decrease if taken in units rather than indivauls, but otherwise i think theyre fine. they play like Leviadon-Lite

Other races pay for a model of higher dmg output with 1 save less and 2-4 HP less 160-200 points. But 380 points seem justified to you?

The Lev should be at 250-280.

Edited January 13, 2019 by JackStreicher

[wanderingrogue1]

5 hours ago, Luke1705 said:

Neither the soulrender nor any of the deepkin battalion are viable if you want to place highly in a tournament setting

 

As far as your list goes, I’d change the sea aspect to storm. I’d also ditch the shark and the turtle, but I assume those are the models that you like that you know aren’t so great

I'll be taking namarti corps with a render to heat 1 to try and proove this wrong 

 

They ain't great tho

[DanielFM]

5 hours ago, Luke1705 said:

Neither the soulrender nor any of the deepkin battalion are viable if you want to place highly in a tournament setting

 

As far as your list goes, I’d change the sea aspect to storm. I’d also ditch the shark and the turtle, but I assume those are the models that you like that you know aren’t so great

I see. It felt somewhat off to field Namarti and not the Soulrender, losing the chance to revive them. But 100 points for only 1d3... 

Mor'phann has a big opportunity cost, Namarti Corps is 100 points (maybe worth it with 2 Soulrenders?). I guess if I don't go full tilt Namarti Reviving horde it's better to leave the Renders home.

I feel the Akhelian Corps is nice, though? Both the Allopex and Leviadon are in it to allow it and to be better. And yes, it's a "like the models" decision.

How should I equip the AotStorm? I have two artifact slots and a command trait to assign.

3 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Other races pay for a model of higher dmg output with 1 save less and 2-4 HP less 160-200 points. But 380 points seem justified to you?

The Lev should be at 250-280.

Can you please name those models instead of vague references to them?

29 minutes ago, wanderingrogue1 said:

I'll be taking namarti corps with a render to heat 1 to try and proove this wrong 

 

They ain't great tho

I think if you go full res combo it's relatively nice, if not great.

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, DanielFM said:

Can you please name those models instead of vague references to them?

Chaos Gargant, Dankhold Troggoth, Ghorgon, Bloodthirster, slaughterbrutes, Comossal Squigs, Troggoth Hag .

Edited January 13, 2019 by JackStreicher

[DanielFM]

13 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Chaos Gargant, Dankhold Troggoth, Ghorgon, Bloodthirster, slaughterbrutes, Comossal Squigs, Troggoth Hag .

The comparison is so heavy-handed that it gives almost no information. You say they have more damage output, but the models you mentioned vary wildly (and not all of them outdamage the Leviadon). You then discount 1 less save and 2-4 less wounds as if it was minor, and proceed to ignore the Leviadon gives a pretty significant buff (while most you mentioned give nothing). Plus almost none of those shoot 

With all that taken into account, it's very difficult to see if those 180 points of difference are fair or not.

A Drakesworn Templar is way closer for a comparison, IMHO. Or a Maw-crusha.

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, DanielFM said:

The comparison is so heavy-handed that it gives almost no information. You say they have more damage output, but the models you mentioned vary wildly (and not all of them outdamage the Leviadon). You then discount 1 less save and 2-4 less wounds as if it was minor, and proceed to ignore the Leviadon gives a pretty significant buff (while most you mentioned give nothing). Plus almost none of those shoot 

With all that taken into account, it's very difficult to see if those 180 points of difference are fair or not.

A Drakesworn Templar is way closer for a comparison, IMHO. Or a Maw-crusha.

Drakesworns are way too special since they only consist of a bunch of special rules. The maw crusha  is better and can receive an artefact and it’s still overpriced.

 

the ones I listed are either mages with high dmg and a lot of wounds and are almost half the price of the lev while coming close to his damage or even outdamaging him. So his ~4 wounds more and a 3+ is worth 200 points? 

The lev buff isn‘t significant unless you plan to get charged in which case the lev and allopexes won‘t benefit from it. It‘s a buff that only works defensively in an aggressive army, find the mistake there.

Edited January 13, 2019 by JackStreicher

[wanderingrogue1]

Yea . The fact that the deepkin strength is speed and hitting power and its weakness is low body count; means you have to spread thin across the table..this all pushes to a certain play style. 

 

Having a big cover granting monster you have to cower near for an average buff is completely not worth the effort.

 

So basically your paying for its stats a with few fringe cases....and its stats are in no way worth its price tag.

Id rather 6 morsar

Or 30 thralls

Hell I'd prefer 3 sharks . At least they can cover more board 

Edited January 13, 2019 by wanderingrogue1

[Acid_Nine]

So played another game against a big tourney player's blight king batallion and hoo boy it went as badly as I thought. didn't take my own advice to screen my morrsarr because I completely forgot that he could run and charge, so they were out for a turn when I needed them, and I lost my king turn 2 when I charged his general and got swarmed by blight kings.

so, more fish food for thought: beware of gnarlmaws, blight king battallions hurt a lot, and always charge in with your opponent's next turn in mind when he could do something.

[JackStreicher]

@Joseph Mackay look at the new Rules for the colossal squig which is only 300 points:

-1 to hit, MWs on the charge, dmg and spawning squigs when he dies, 8 attacks hitting (2+, 3+, rend -2) of which each 6 to hit deals D3 MWs, another 10 attacks and one shooting attack at 16 HP, 4D6 move and a 5+ save.

pretty much better than the Leviadon in every way (the -1 to hit is huge).

Edited January 14, 2019 by JackStreicher

[Joseph Mackay]

forgeworld models are not fair comparisions (they may have got better at rules writing lately, but theyre generally either undercosted or overcosted)

[Praecautus]

Hi fishkin, I am slowly building my deepkin list to 2k and wanted some advice on next steps.

Currently I have the following

Akhelian king/Volturnus 

Soulscryer

Soulrender

Tidecaster

10 reavers

10 thralls

6 Morsarr Guard eels

 

I would prefer to avoid the eel span lists and like to play with the infantry starting with eels and king deepstriking in. My current thought to get close to 2k is 6 more Morsarr and an aspect of the storm. I would like to squeeze another unit of thralls in if possible.

Before I commit the funds are there any thoughts eg drop the aspect for more bodies? 

[DanielFM]

10 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

@Joseph Mackay look at the new Rules for the colossal squig which is only 300 points:

-1 to hit, MWs on the charge, dmg and spawning squigs when he dies, 8 attacks hitting (2+, 3+, rend -2) of which each 6 to hit deals D3 MWs, another 10 attacks and one shooting attack at 16 HP, 4D6 move and a 5+ save.

pretty much better than the Leviadon in every way (the -1 to hit is huge).

As above, the Colossal Squig is an afterthought to the actual Battletome, some rules tacked to a model with no real balance with the rest of the real army.

Anyway, it does 8.88 unsaved wounds (against 4+ save models) not counting the mortals, and the Leviadon does 7.33 (not counting the mortals either). Not that big of a difference. The CS is -1 to hit in CC and only a 5+ save against anything else, the Leviadon is 3+ always and can be made inmune to shooting (Forgotten Nightmares). The Squig has the summon (5 squigs, that's...60 points?) if it dies, and the Leviadon has the cover aura (which is far from useless, it can be played around if you are willing to adjust a little).

Is the Leviadon worth 80 points more than the Colossal Squig. Not really. Should it be 300? I don't think so.

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, DanielFM said:

Is the Leviadon worth 80 points more than the Colossal Squig. Not really. Should it be 300? I don't think so.


and the Leviadon has the cover aura (which is far from useless, it can be played around if you are willing to adjust a little).

I agree, 280 seems about right 😜

Yup if you want to play a bunch of sub-par units which in turn need to get charged (which means killed) in order to profit fromt the buff (of which again Allopexes, and the Leviadon don't profit from). Namarti spam it is then? You just lose your mobility if you have to play around the lev. Mobility is sadly what keeps the IDK alive since we usually lack the numbers of other units to contest objectives.

Edit: Counting in Allegiance Abilities: The squig can run 5D6 inches. This will get him most likely where you need him.

Edited January 15, 2019 by JackStreicher

[DanielFM]

6 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

I agree, 280 seems about right 😜

Yup if you want to play a bunch of sub-par units which in turn need to get charged (which means killed) in order to profit fromt the buff (of which again Allopexes, and the Leviadon don't profit from). Namarti spam it is then? You just lose your mobility if you have to play around the lev. Mobility is sadly what keeps the IDK alive since we usually lack the numbers of other units to contest objectives.

Edit: Counting in Allegiance Abilities: The squig can run 5D6 inches. This will get him most likely where you need him.

😒

I think we play different games. What if you play Reverse Tide and you don't get first turn? Yeah, the Leviadon cover is useless.

What if (how dare you) you ambush a Leviadon with a big unit so they take and hold an objective?

What if you maneuver the Leviadon so it runs and keeps a charging unit within the bubble?

PD: am I missing something and cover stops working if you charge? Or is it that you think it's impossible to charge with a unit and still be within the aura? *Real edit: I wasn't aware cover doesn't work if you charge. Sorry. It doesn't wholly invalidate the previous argument.

Reply to the Edit:  what are you talking about? Running 5d6 and charging? Yeah, if the moon is where it should be when you need it (first battleround it's in the corner, no effect. Second battleround it can be in a quadrant or in the center of the table). The Leviadon moves 12+1d6 and charge in the second turn. Consider me unimpressed 😜

Edited January 15, 2019 by DanielFM