AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion

[Sactownbri]

I’m playing my final club game this weekend. 2500pts.my army is an almost complete collection of Deepkin: 

Aspect of Sea

Volturnus

Tidecaster

Lotann

2x 10 man squad of Thralls

Ishlaen Guard

Morsarr Guard

Leviadon

Allopex x2

Reavers

Akhelian Corp 

Nnot sure what to spend my last 100 points. I’m thinking Cogs or Voryex for the Tidecaster. Thoughts?

[Hankster]

19 hours ago, Keggers said:

So what are people leaning to nowadays? I hit a hobby slump, partially due to a newborn, and I'm ready to get some paint on my deepkin in preparation for 2019 tournaments. This was the last list I came up with a few months ago.

I wanted to try and counter some of the heavy-magic lists with this, or at least attempt to but it seems like I may as well just swap the AoSea for the Storm and drop the wanderers/spellweaver for more eels?

It's worth noting that Morrsarr's got cheaper in GHB18. They are now the same as the Ishleans. 

Personally, I've pretty much gone all in on eels on the premise that you are better off doing one thing really well than a bunch of things ok.  That said I've never played tournaments and meta here in Ottawa is not very magic heavy.  

[HollowHills]

46 minutes ago, Hankster said:

It's worth noting that Morrsarr's got cheaper in GHB18. They are now the same as the Ishleans. 

Personally, I've pretty much gone all in on eels on the premise that you are better off doing one thing really well than a bunch of things ok.  That said I've never played tournaments and meta here in Ottawa is not very magic heavy.  

Wrong. GHB18 values are incorrect, the Battletome values are the correct points. See the Errata on WHC.

[Drofnum]

3 hours ago, Unter said:

I think a huge amount of the power of Evocators is their synergy with Gavriel to guarantee the charge. Not sure they are hot stuff without that

While this is mostly true if you take Ionrach you can get run and charge with them 2nd turn which will usually get them in to combat pretty reliably.  And just having a command point ready to reroll the charge in case they dont make it again makes it a fairly reliable tactic.

[HollowHills]

5 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

While this is mostly true if you take Ionrach you can get run and charge with them 2nd turn which will usually get them in to combat pretty reliably.  And just having a command point ready to reroll the charge in case they dont make it again makes it a fairly reliable tactic.

5 evocators will do an average of 8 or so wounds vs a 4 up save in combat. You can add 5 mortals to that for an estimated total of 13 or so wounds through on your target per 5 guys at 200 points. That's assuming they have empower on themselves. 

Morsarr in charge will deal 6 with spears. 1.5 with tails and 1 more from maws. For a total of 8.5 assuming charge but no rerolls at all. This doesn't take into account the once per game mortals.

I don't think it's worth taking Ionrach for. Better off using internal synergies, movement and less points for morsarr. 

[whispersofblood]

That was my point. I'm considering evocators for the post soulscryer+Volturnos meta. Currently it's still very powerful so no need to really shift to much. 

I more or less have the build in my head already. Might do it for Adepticon since it's far enough out that a shake up would be needed. 

[Drofnum]

The math I get is a bit different, vs a 4 up Morrsarr are doing 5 with spears, 1 from tails and and another 1 from maws for 7 damage total.  Evocators empowering themselves, I get 9.5 damage with them and another 5 mortals for 14.5.

Getting double the damage and more importantly mortal wounds could definitely be worth it, is it an auto include?  No, but it does potentially fill out a list with something we dont have, consistent mortal wound output.  Not to mention Evocators are doing that damage every turn regardless of charging or being stuck in a combat.

I dont even really have a horse in this race though, i've looked at Evocators but chose not to go with them until I finish painting all 2k of my Idoneth.

[Hankster]

1 hour ago, HollowHills said:

Wrong. GHB18 values are incorrect, the Battletome values are the correct points. See the Errata on WHC.

Really? FTW Warhammer! What's the point of tweaking battletomes in the GHBs if those aren't right.

Sighhhhh. 

[Keggers]

9 minutes ago, Hankster said:

Really? FTW Warhammer! What's the point of tweaking battletomes in the GHBs if those aren't right.

Sighhhhh. 

It's speculated a lot of the stuff for Deepkin in GHB2018 was written pre-release for deepkin, before things were tweaked for the final release of the IDK book.

I'm just moreso curious if the list I made actually has a stand against magic heavy lists or if I should just go all in on eels and forget trying to fight the magic meta.

[Drofnum]

12 minutes ago, Keggers said:

It's speculated a lot of the stuff for Deepkin in GHB2018 was written pre-release for deepkin, before things were tweaked for the final release of the IDK book.

I'm just moreso curious if the list I made actually has a stand against magic heavy lists or if I should just go all in on eels and forget trying to fight the magic meta.

I run a list somewhat similar to yours and havent had a problem against Seraphon, which is probably the most magic heavy army I see in my area.  No one plays Tzeentch or Nagash here.  I definitely dont get as much mileage out of my casters against them but they still do well, the Eidolon is decent enough in combat and is quite tanky so even when you arent casting he can do a job.

My list is below.  I wouldnt mind swapping out the Reavers for Royal Council just for another artifact.

Vulturnos, High King of the Deep (280) (General)
Eidolon of Mathlann, Aspect of the Sea (440)
Isharann Soulscryer (100)
Isharann Tidecaster (100)
10 x Namarti Thralls (140)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (320)
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (160)
10 x Namarti Reavers (140)

Total: 1960 / 2000

[mmimzie]

37 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

I run a list somewhat similar to yours and havent had a problem against Seraphon, which is probably the most magic heavy army I see in my area.  No one plays Tzeentch or Nagash here.  I definitely dont get as much mileage out of my casters against them but they still do well, the Eidolon is decent enough in combat and is quite tanky so even when you arent casting he can do a job.

My list is below.  I wouldnt mind swapping out the Reavers for Royal Council just for another artifact.

Vulturnos, High King of the Deep (280) (General)
Eidolon of Mathlann, Aspect of the Sea (440)
Isharann Soulscryer (100)
Isharann Tidecaster (100)
10 x Namarti Thralls (140)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (320)
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (160)
10 x Namarti Reavers (140)

Total: 1960 / 2000

I also run a similar list, but i run ionrach because i think if you want to run an aspect of the sea +1 to cast is big, and leaping off that you'd either want 2 tidecasters or 1 tidecaster and a balewind to get more out of the +1 to cast. Recently i also threw in some evocators because they fit really nicely in and benefit really well from ionrach.  I also take the royal council for the extra artifact. Don't know how the evocators work just yet, but they seem like they should do well enough. ALso i could drop a unit of ishlaen for a unit of thralls, but i haven't had any games where it would have mattered one way or another, and i don't own any thralls, so *shrug*.

 

 

King

   deep places

    cloud of midnight

Tidecaster

Scryer

Aspect of the sea

   Arcane Pearl

 

3xIshlaen

3xIshlaen

3xishlaen

6xmorrsarr

Royal Court

5x Evocators

Balewind Vortex

[Drofnum]

I've been trying out different Enclaves lately.  I still cant decide if I want Ionrach or Fuethan, I've also had pretty good results with Nautilar mostly just cause protective barrier can be nice on the Morrsarr.

Still undecided on which i will stick with long term though.

[PUFNSTUF]

6 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

That was my point. I'm considering evocators for the post soulscryer+Volturnos meta. Currently it's still very powerful so no need to really shift to much. 

I more or less have the build in my head already. Might do it for Adepticon since it's far enough out that a shake up would be needed. 

What is the meta your referring too? Is there some special combo?

[mmimzie]

3 hours ago, PUFNSTUF said:

What is the meta your referring too? Is there some special combo?

Nothing special just current list are about spamming various combinations of eels along with volturnous (or normal king) and a scryer or two. 

[Keggers]

How are people finding Ishlaen for grabbing and holding objectives? Originally I intended to ally in 2x20 wanderers with a spellweaver to keep them alive for "my side of the board objectives." I'm willing to drop them but for their cost, it seems like they would do that job great.

If I do drop the allies, I'm looking at something like this:

IONRACH ENCLAVE
Akhelian King (240)
- General
- Command Trait : Emissary of the Deep Places
- Artefact : Cloud of Midnight
Eidolon of Mathlann, Aspect of the Sea (440)
Isharann Tidecaster (100)
Isharann Soulscryer (100)

3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
9 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (480)

Balewind Vortex (40)

 

Leaves 40 points so I'll probably just throw a pendulum in as well.

Edited October 6, 2018 by Keggers

[Amradiel]

Our gaming group is growing. And to start things off for beginners we are playing 1000 points. So, used to the eel spam but what do you bring to smaller games?

[HollowHills]

21 hours ago, Drofnum said:

The math I get is a bit different, vs a 4 up Morrsarr are doing 5 with spears, 1 from tails and and another 1 from maws for 7 damage total.  Evocators empowering themselves, I get 9.5 damage with them and another 5 mortals for 14.5.

Getting double the damage and more importantly mortal wounds could definitely be worth it, is it an auto include?  No, but it does potentially fill out a list with something we dont have, consistent mortal wound output.  Not to mention Evocators are doing that damage every turn regardless of charging or being stuck in a combat.

I dont even really have a horse in this race though, i've looked at Evocators but chose not to go with them until I finish painting all 2k of my Idoneth.

OK fair enough, I mean I don't think anyone is arguing they don't have good damage output. That said even if you can get them into combat you lose the incredible movement of the eels. Being able to retreat 20 inches onto an objective for example. Plus you have to give up a lot take Ionrach enclave. No unique command trait, no fuethan bonuses etc. 

[mmimzie]

4 hours ago, HollowHills said:

OK fair enough, I mean I don't think anyone is arguing they don't have good damage output. That said even if you can get them into combat you lose the incredible movement of the eels. Being able to retreat 20 inches onto an objective for example. Plus you have to give up a lot take Ionrach enclave. No unique command trait, no fuethan bonuses etc. 

The real arguement is that you use both morrsarr and evocators. Its basicly two units of 6 morrsarr vs 6morrsarr & 5 evocators. 

 

Both units have thier pros and cons, but I think together they work really well. As they let you keep the pressure from turn 1 to turn 3. Morrsarr can turn 1 charge with ishlaen.  Evocators can turn 2 charge with ishlaen. Then turn 3 you buff what's left of your morrsarr and bring the pain along with attacking first evocators. 

 

But as you say you lose stuff. That not a bad thing... its a trade off. It's not like thralls vs eels where going heavy thralls is kind of all a lost comparatively. Evocators its abit of a wash.

 

Evocators can generate more damage and are more durable to shooting than morrsarr in ionrach. 

 

Cons wise you lose fuethan, which the reroll 1s to hit is already pretty useless as your morrsarr usually dont charge turn 2 as you want them charging turn 3. The reroll 1s to wound is just +1/6th damage to the weakest part of the eel kit. That said with lots of bonus stacks the +1/6th can go far.  Fuethan also loses retreat and charge turn 4.

 

So again it's a choice, and that's a good thing in my book. In a gaming environment where most armies only have 1 list of variation on one list. We now have a pretty awesome 2nd choice that looks and feels pretty good.

[HollowHills]

54 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

The real arguement is that you use both morrsarr and evocators. Its basicly two units of 6 morrsarr vs 6morrsarr & 5 evocators...

...So again it's a choice, and that's a good thing in my book. In a gaming environment where most armies only have 1 list of variation on one list. We now have a pretty awesome 2nd choice that looks and feels pretty good.

It's a good point, I'd certainly be interested to see how it works for people. The Evocators are great models as well. I might pick some up once I'm done painting eels. 

[DocKeule]

To me the Deepkin are one of those armies where bringing in allies just does not seem right. An isolated population with no above water settlements that regularely hunts all other factions for souls...I could see some "uneasy allies" scenario against a common threat but no long term alliance. (Plus I am a fluff bunny).

[mmimzie]

58 minutes ago, DocKeule said:

To me the Deepkin are one of those armies where bringing in allies just does not seem right. An isolated population with no above water settlements that regularely hunts all other factions for souls...I could see some "uneasy allies" scenario against a common threat but no long term alliance. (Plus I am a fluff bunny).

Allies is the whole story of Ionrach enclave working with stormcast eternal on like every other page of the book. 

edit: like sigmar ahs sent emmsarries to ionrach itself. Though any allaince were voted down. Storm cast helped save nautilar. From there the lore is so open these days (thankfully), to where you could easily have your own settlement of  ionrach offshoot enclave that works closely with allies. Also, it's hinted at in the verbage that the whole of ID aren't against allying with any of the other aelf factions 

edit 2: and while some of the ID seek specificly Aelf souls other enclaves could just as easily only target chaos/destruction souls as to not put off allys etc. 

 

Edited October 6, 2018 by mmimzie

[DantePQ]

So my army is coming nicely - more is coming  

 

[Amradiel]

32 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

So my army is coming nicely - more is coming  

 

Love it

[PUFNSTUF]

Has anyone tried allying in aventis with the comet? Or another sacrosanct wizard to throw out a comet?

[mmimzie]

1 hour ago, PUFNSTUF said:

Has anyone tried allying in aventis with the comet? Or another sacrosanct wizard to throw out a comet?

It's good stuff, just sucks of your opponent can snipe the 1 and only wizard that can throw your comment, and then you are down 240+ pts. Compare to a king who is 240 pts who atleast can use forgotten nightmare, cloud of midnight,  and a soul scryer to live throw most alpha strike style damage. 

 

Plus you need to back ththe comet up with some decent shooting or more powerful spells so you can snipe character or do enough damage to start force battle shock. Otherwise it end up only softening a bunch of unit. 

 

Like comet + 3 drop ballistic would be good because you are either killing a character or two, or cause some serious battle shocks we don't have anything outside of spells to combo with the comet.