AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[EnixLHQ]

Oh man, a legit fear mechanic? What would that look like?

We'd need to be able to make Bravery 10 units susceptible while not making anything less so absolutely broken that losing a single model is an insta-wipe. Even if it came through spells, I'd hate to break out a super-reliable -5 Bravery cast that puts any non-Death or demon army in the negatives. Worse, I'd hate to get a super UNreliable spell.

Maybe stackable -1 auras? So the more units we put in play against a single opponent unit the more we reduce their Bravery? Still only comes into -1 to -3 territory on its own. How about everything stays the same, but the aura gets stronger over turns? Aura of Dread now reduces Bravery by the current turn number, so the longer the game goes on the worse it is to deal with us. Maybe it even grows by a couple inches each turn, too. So it starts at 6" and ends at 14".

These still wreck low-bravery enemies, probably out of proportion.

Maybe making failing Battleshock a Command Ability? Like for a CP we can force a failure of an enemy's battleshock test. For example, the enemy just lost 5 models in a 10-man unit. We spend a CP and now it's an auto-failure for them (the CA would overwrite Inspiring Presence or other Battleshock-preventing or passing abilities). Since it's a failure their models lost now becomes the number of models that run. So another 5 run and the unit is lost. Against a 3-man unit of elites you can take one out, spend a CP and force another out. Or if you got 2 the CP completes the wipe. This would make it a tactical choice, but not help any of our other abilities that depend on a Bravery value to do things.

[SleeperAgent]

17 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

Maybe it even grows by a couple inches each turn, too. So it starts at 6" and ends at 14".

I originally had an idea like this for our terrain piece. Like the herd stone, it grows every turn. Starts at 12" and goes up 6" each turn. The negative to bravery is equal to the current battle round. Maybe broken realms will get us Nighthaunt terrain. We definitely don't need more models.

Edited October 29, 2020 by SleeperAgent

[dmorley21]

What about an ability/spell that automatically makes a unit bravery 5 until the end of the turn?

[Saxon]

6 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

Oh man, a legit fear mechanic? What would that look like?

We'd need to be able to make Bravery 10 units susceptible while not making anything less so absolutely broken that losing a single model is an insta-wipe. Even if it came through spells, I'd hate to break out a super-reliable -5 Bravery cast that puts any non-Death or demon army in the negatives. Worse, I'd hate to get a super UNreliable spell.

Maybe stackable -1 auras? So the more units we put in play against a single opponent unit the more we reduce their Bravery? Still only comes into -1 to -3 territory on its own. How about everything stays the same, but the aura gets stronger over turns? Aura of Dread now reduces Bravery by the current turn number, so the longer the game goes on the worse it is to deal with us. Maybe it even grows by a couple inches each turn, too. So it starts at 6" and ends at 14".

These still wreck low-bravery enemies, probably out of proportion.

Maybe making failing Battleshock a Command Ability? Like for a CP we can force a failure of an enemy's battleshock test. For example, the enemy just lost 5 models in a 10-man unit. We spend a CP and now it's an auto-failure for them (the CA would overwrite Inspiring Presence or other Battleshock-preventing or passing abilities). Since it's a failure their models lost now becomes the number of models that run. So another 5 run and the unit is lost. Against a 3-man unit of elites you can take one out, spend a CP and force another out. Or if you got 2 the CP completes the wipe. This would make it a tactical choice, but not help any of our other abilities that depend on a Bravery value to do things.

Maybe it just halves bravery? Putting demons/death down to 5 could be huge?

Some of the elite armies might badly suffer (disproportionately so) if they auto-fail battleshock tests. Think Orruk Brutes or blightkings who are high wound elite models. 

The problem i have had though is that most armies have so many ways to ignore battleshock that debuffing bravery achieves nothing. Look at gloomspite gitz. Terrible across the board bravery but they CP spam so providing they don't outrun their heroes it's never a problem. 

Similarly, now that GW has made OBR who don't take battleshock tests, they would need to explain how this rule would work so i would imagine they won't go this way. If a command ability allows you to wipe units, NH would go to top meta again so no chance it will happen.

[El Antiguo Guardián]

Today is Halloween, so I made this video for you!!! A good day for the ghost (and for the vampires on Patreon).

 

 

[The_Dudemeister]

On 10/29/2020 at 4:55 PM, EnixLHQ said:

Oh man, a legit fear mechanic? What would that look like?

We'd need to be able to make Bravery 10 units susceptible while not making anything less so absolutely broken that losing a single model is an insta-wipe. Even if it came through spells, I'd hate to break out a super-reliable -5 Bravery cast that puts any non-Death or demon army in the negatives. Worse, I'd hate to get a super UNreliable spell.

Roll 2d6 against bravery in a 18" aura. Every point over each target unit's bravery equals 1 mortal wound. As per usual...

But when this test rolls under the current bravery, set the bravery characteristic to the result of the roll for the rest of the battle.

This spell would work as it always does against low bravery armies from the beginning. Death, Daemons etc are spared by the first barrage of mortal wounds but from that point on might be as spooked as a cowardly little snotling. And it's a lasting effect so all other bravery shennanigans don't need to be modified too much. By round 3 all opponents will have low bravery

For example Nighthaunt against Tzeentch. Reikenor casts that spell and rolls a 6 on his 2d6. Kairic Acolytes with native bravery of 5 get a mortal wound (or 2 when close enough). Flamers', Pink Horrors' etc bravery gets set to 6, setting them up for a punishing shooting phase from Olynder, Tomb Banshee and a scary morale phase. And next turn will either earn them many more mortal wounds or their bravery gets pushed below 6.

Either way something good comes out of such a spell.  And it's steong enough to genuinely build your army around. Harridans, Tomb Banshees and whatnots will be back on the menu. 

Edited November 2, 2020 by The_Dudemeister

[EnixLHQ]

17 minutes ago, The_Dudemeister said:

Roll 2d6 against bravery in a 18" aura. Every point over each target unit's bravery equals 1 mortal wound. As per usual...

But when this test rolls under the current bravery, set the bravery characteristic to the result of the roll for the rest of the battle.

This spell would work as it always does against low bravery armies from the beginning. Death, Daemons etc are spared by the first barrage of mortal wounds but from that point on might be as spooked as a cowardly little snotling. And it's a lasting effect so all other bravery shennanigans don't need to be modified too much. By round 3, all opponents will have.

For example Nighthaunt against Tzeentch. Reikenor casts that spell and rolls a 6 on his 2d6. Kairic Acolytes with native bravery of 5 get a mortal wound (or 2 when close enough). Flamers', Pink Horrors' etc bravery gets set to 6, setting them up for a punishing shooting phase from Olynder, Tomb Banshee and a scary morale phase. And next turn will either earn them many more mortal wounds or their bravery gets pushed below 6.

Either way something good comes out of such a spell.  And it's steong enough to genuinely build your army around. Harridans, Tomb Banshees and whatnots will be back on the menu. 

I love this

[Sauriv]

I would enjoy to see something similar to the coven throne's spell, roll against bravery and if you succeed the target is too afraid to fight back. 

Or some way (like a spell) to force the opponent to retreat or flee, like the opposite effect of a great bray-shaman's spell. Instead of "move as close as possibly" to "move as far away as possible". 

[Sharklone]

Had my Very first game last night with the nighthaunt with a variation on EnixLHQ's list all takers list. was versing an Ogors list consisting of 3 wizards, Gluttons, ironguts, leadbelchers... all the foot dudes.

Lady Olynder - Soul Cage
GENERAL - Spirit Torment - Ruler Of the Spirit Hosts - Pendent of the fel wind
Guardian of Souls - Beacon of Nagashazzir - Shademist
Reikenor the Grim Hailer

30x Chainrasps
10x Chainrasps
5x Hexwraiths
5x Hexwraiths

9x Spirit Hosts

20x Grimghast reapers

The Dolourus Guard

SETUP

We were playing force the hand? the L shaped deployment. Basically set up in 2 lines across from each other. I had my basic formations set out. The spirit hosts and the torment. The rasps and the guardian of souls, and the reapers operated as a sweeping independent force. The hexwraiths, reikenor, LADY O and her screen of 10 rasps were in the under world.

TURN 1 - 3-3

He gave me first turn and I pushed everything up the board and captured my 3 objectives. He essentially did the same, except he got a huge 12 inch charge off on my Spirit hosts with his 12? gluttons. He managed to take down 4 of them... and then they hit back real hard and did like 11 mortals and 2 damage? It was alot of sixes. rolled for the torment in battleshock... back came a torment.

 

TURN 2 - 7-6

I won priority and he nearly threw up when I rolled 3 hosts to come back to the board making the unit full strength again. I pushed the reapers up behind the spirit hosts expecting a retread from the gluttons on his turn.  Reikenor and his Hexwraiths appeared on the right flank 9 inches away from a unit of 4 leadbelchers who had a unit of 8 iron guts about 7 inches behind them. Managed to get a charge of on both hexwraiths and reikenor even rolled wave of terror (he whiffed and did 0 damage but haha). The hexwraiths murdered the leadbelchers with the extra attack from dolorus guard and the spirit hosts lost 2 models and took down  3 more gluttons. On his turn, he charged in his irongutz and absolutely destroyed the hexwraiths and Reikenor, but I'd planned for that, and still had my 30 chainrasps and the GOS on that flank as a screen in case I got doubled. He retreated the gluttons as expected.

 

TURN 3 - 12 - 7

I won priority again, but honestly think I would have been fine if I got double turned. My Rasps got shademisted by the GoS and my Spirit hosts brought back 1 model. This round was all objective grabbing for me. I moved my Spirit hosts up with the spirit torment. They had now gone the entire distance of the board all the way to his read objective being baby sat by 4 leadbelchers. My Reapers flew over the top of a building in the middle of the map and landed 3 away from his retreating gluttons. Chainrasps just moved up and spread out keeping the Ironguts where they were. LADY O and the Rasps dropped straight into the middle of about 3 of his units and she pumped out some mortals. Spirit hosts left 1 Leadbealcher alive. The Reapers destroyed the rest of the gluttons and My unit of 10 rasps made a charge into his butcher and managed to kill him thanks to the mortals from LADY O earlier. His turn he charged his irongutz into the unit of 30 rasps and killed 17. At this point in the game he was stuck in a small triangle in his deployment zone. Basically it was a line from halfway down the long edge, to the middle of the short edge and his whole army was in that small triangle and mine was all in front of that in a line.

TURN 4 - 17 - 8

At this point He conceded we mathed it out and his Irongutz were the only thing he had that was going to be able to take any objectives, and I still had a full squads all over the board to potentially take them out anyway.

THOUGHTS ON NIGHTHAUNT (FIRST GAME)
This Army was an absolute ball to play. I usually play FEC and OBR. and this army was so much fun as it was a nice change from just one big scary monster or unkillable Mortek haha. The Underworlds was HUGE. My opponent was so worried about my units appearing in his backfield that he played way to conservatively essentially just shuffling around allowing me to move my entire army up the board and trap him in his deployment zone and then steal all his objectives with my unrendable ghosty bois.

I think I might have a new favourite army!!!

 

[EnixLHQ]

1 hour ago, Sharklone said:

Had my Very first game last night with the nighthaunt with a variation on EnixLHQ's list all takers list. was versing an Ogors list consisting of 3 wizards, Gluttons, ironguts, leadbelchers... all the foot dudes.

[...recap goodness]

I think I might have a new favourite army!!!

Oh, this bring so much joy to my cold, dead, ethereal heart! I love this, and I'm glad your first outing with the ghosty bois was so fun.

[Nasrod]

A big wishlist of changes I dream of every night:

Glaivewraith Stalkers - Fight first if charged, new points 60/220, new unit size 5/20. 

Dreadscythe Haridans - Units suffering casualties from this unit cannot benefit from Inspiring Presence. 

Grimghast Reapers - New unit size of 5/20, 80/300 points change

Bladegheist Revenants - Rend 2

Hexwraiths and Black Coach - Wave of Terror trigger on a roll of 9+ 

Spirit Hosts - Can Deep Strike in place of movement.

Lady Olynder goes to 9 wounds and provides a wholly within 24" +5 Deathless Aura, gains +1 to casts and unbinds. Regens D3 wounds to ANY 3 nighthaunt units wholly within 18".  320 points.

Myrmidon Banshees - Considered at full stength for the purpose of dispels if wholly within 12" of Lady Olynder. 

Lord Reikenor goes to 2 casts per turn and points increase of 30 points.  Goes to 8 wounds.

Kurdoss Valentian becomes a monster with brackets and 12 wounds. Regenerates D3 summonable wounds to 3 units wholly within 32" degrading to 12" as he is bracketed over time. Can spend a command point to allow a units in that same range to run and charge. At the start of each turn, pick an enemy unit; Nighthaunt units gain +1 to wave of terror rolls charging the target unit. 

Dreadblade Harrow - Command Trait to swap places with a unit wholly within 24" at the end of the movement phase. 

Lord Executioner - Hits on a 4+ and deals D3 Mortal Wounds per hit. 

Factions:

Phantasmal: Missile attacks are made at -1 to hit from 12"-23", -2 to hit from 24"-35", and -3 to hit from 36" or further. 

Cursewarded: Heroes with Wizard keyword and Nighthaunt wholly within 12" of those Heroes gain +4 shrug against Mortal Wounds

Honorbound: Battleline units in this army may soak wounds from Heroes within 6" on a 4+

Heartstoppers: Nighthaunt units in this faction force Battleshock tests to be taken immediately following each attack resolution. Nighthaunt units in this faction never have to take Battleshock tests while wholly within 12" of a hero. 

[EnixLHQ]

3 hours ago, Nasrod said:

A big wishlist of changes I dream of every night:

These are pretty unique, I have to say. I like them.

[EnixLHQ]

I've got a general ask for my spooky boi buddies. I'm looking for someone who really knows Nagash and Nighthaunt lore.

I've got some homebrew lore I'd like to "fact check" against established canon.

If you're up for it please hit me up in a DM.

Edited November 7, 2020 by EnixLHQ

[The_Dudemeister]

On 11/5/2020 at 10:25 PM, Sharklone said:

The Underworlds was HUGE. My opponent was so worried about my units appearing in his backfield that he played way to conservatively essentially just shuffling around allowing me to

That's Nighthaunt's real terror ability!

You'll find this exact sentiment several times in this thread. It's an interesting psychological effect and I've been on the receiving end of it too.

The threat of just popping up in the backfield is real. Over the course of your next games I bet you'll also hear your opponents ask if you have any more in the underworlds left and if not, visibly starting to position way more aggressive again. Like a sigh of relief, "finally I can frigging move"

[dmorley21]

Looking through the reviews of Morathi, I wonder if NH get something like the Misthavn command ability that allows a unit that pops up from being set aside to move D6". Would make me consider no longer taking Cogs. 

Edited November 11, 2020 by dmorley21
Typo

[Neck-Romantic]

How about if you manage to drop a unit's bravery to X amount they automagically lose a model during bravery phase whether they pass or not?

Edited November 11, 2020 by Neck-Romantic

[Sauriv]

36 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

How about if you manage to drop a unit's bravery to X amount they automatically lose a model during bravery phase whether they pass or not?

Core rules say that you must take battleshock for each unit that has any models slain. So something need to die before rolling. 

If the bravery debuff and the casualties are high can result in "X models fleeing + whatever you roll", but they need to fail the battleshock before loosing any models. 

 

 

[EnixLHQ]

It urks me to no end that other armies can do our grief/fear mechanic better than we can.

In addition to everything already mentioned, the Sylvaneth have a few bravery shenanigans that they can combo that I'd like to have in our toolbox. A general that can force all opponent battleshock successes to be rerolled, a battalion that adds an additional D3 models to any opponent failed battleshock test, units that reduce bravery by 1 by being close, an artefact that can reduce it by another 1, and a spell that that does D3 damage to all enemies in a 10" radius if you roll higher than their bravery.

Can you imagine that? NH or LoG already reducing bravery by 1, our general trait to reduce bravery by 2, an artefact that could reduce bravery by 1 more, our LoG spell to reduce bravery by D3 becoming baseline, the general forcing rerolls of successful battleshock, and a battalion that both prevents Inspiring Presence and adds an additional D3 to models that flee.

That's -5 to -7 bravery, depending on a CV8 spell (would like to see that reduced a bit or get some casting bonuses), +D3 fleeing, no CA battleshock prevention, and a low ceiling to roll against for Banshee/Mortis Engine/Olynder shooting. Add in a way to chip into all the "take no battleshock" immunity rules (like forcing that to become a failure of 1 if otherwise no battleshock would be taken) and I think the lore about Olynder projecting so much grief that hardened warrior's hearts simply stopping becomes real on the table, too. And not that overpowered since it all already exists in the game and there's still a cast RNG/unbind involved.

It's not my preferred way to play, but I can see the allure of it.

You could make a 3-model unit with 10 bravery have to roll against a modified 5 or 3 bravery, reroll their success, and make at minimum 2 more run on a failure, just as long as you killed 1. And if they were immune to battleshock, 2 flee anyway. Broken, but worth the risk it'd take to set it up.

And heaven bro help you if you brought a 40-model unit with 6 bravery...

[EnixLHQ]

By the way, my friend just started a new gaming channel. He's a brand new baby let's player, so there's not a lot of content up yet and he's still working on, well, all the everything.

But, I'm in it, too. Whenever there is any AoS or Warcry content I'll be collaborating with him to bring Nighthaunt in it's various forms to the table, and maybe branching out to other armies later.

Right now the only related video is this one: 

Where we build the Catacombs Warcry set. I'm the one who builds the terrain.

I promised you guys a show of my Mortal Reign Mk. 2 list, but the footage didn't turn out well. He might still release it later if it can be salvaged, or release it as link-only content which I'll put here. Once we nail down how we want to film you'll see a lot more NH play action on the channel.

But, for now you can see my stupid face stumbling over what to even call myself and hear me babble about the Warcry set. In the future I'll try to answer questions or refer to comments here and on the channel and try to interact where I can. It's his channel, though, so please remember that if you sub or comment. I'm just helping him out.

[SleeperAgent]

What if, alongside some bravery de-buffing updates we get, we had rules kind of like Slaanesh but in reverse: "At the start of the combat phase, roll a dice for each enemy model within 3" of a friendly unit, add 1 (or 2) to the roll if it's a NIGHTHAUNT hero rolling, if the roll beats the enemy's bravery characteristic they must retreat instead of fighting in combat".

[EnixLHQ]

26 minutes ago, SleeperAgent said:

What if, alongside some bravery de-buffing updates we get, we had rules kind of like Slaanesh but in reverse: "At the start of the combat phase, roll a dice for each enemy model within 3" of a friendly unit, add 1 (or 2) to the roll if it's a NIGHTHAUNT hero rolling, if the roll beats the enemy's bravery characteristic they must retreat instead of fighting in combat".

I suppose what's good is that in the time following our NH release GW has played with various abilities and functions across the army to get a feel with how they play on the table. It's good because whenever we do get our update they'll have a lot more data to pull from to, hopefully, put together a great tome for us.

I just wish that new tome was a thing that was happening.

[Whiteman]

Hello (dead) Guys

i have a debate with a rule . 

In the NH BT :

Several Nighthaunt abilities allow you to return slain models to a unit. When you do so, set up the models one at a time within 1" of a model
from the unit they are returning to (this can be a model you returned to the unit earlier in the same phase).
The slain models you return to a unit can only be set up within 3" of an enemy unit if one or more models

In the FAQ of core book : 

I heard that BT rules are over the core book if they are contradictory.

So, do you know if this FAQ applies aswell to NH abilities ?

Thanks !

 

[EnixLHQ]

2 hours ago, Whiteman said:

So, do you know if this FAQ applies aswell to NH abilities ?

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking.

For Nighthaunt the model return mechanic sticks to the same rules. If you evoked an ability or performed an action that can return a model, then you do so. You select the unit to which this effect applies and check to see where the existing models are. You then place the returned model within the unit, minding the 1" unit coherency rule. Once placed, that model is now legit in the unit and defines the new edge of the unit for the purpose of placing down the next returned model.

After that it's just a simple combat range check: is that unit already within 3" of an enemy unit? If so, great, return models wherever you like including in the face of the enemy. If it's not within 3", then you can't breech the 3" barrier by returning models any closer than that.

This means daisy-chaining models you return into a conga line down the table is a legit tactic, and is a way you can "cheat" movement out of your units. But other than using this to surround an enemy unit with bodies, staying outside 3", you can't use this to snare a unit into combat that wasn't already in combat with that unit.

And lastly, you cannot engage an enemy unit with one of your units and then return models to another unit nearby that's not in combat range and then break that 3" barrier with the enemy unit. They may be in combat with you, but that check is per-unit, not "if in combat".

[Whiteman]

Thanks for your answer !

yeah i know it's tricky and my english is maybe not that much accurate to explain it properly.

Anyway, i'll try it again. 

In the NH BT, it says that when you return models, you can do it within 3'' from enemy unit if you are already within 3'' of an enemy unit.

But the rule doesn't specify if the ennemy unit is the one you already within 3'', or another one. 

So in matched played, the rules itself allows you to engage another unit, unless you are already engaged with "an" enemy unit.

 

Another FAQ says that  BT rules are always used instead of generic rules.

 

So what about this one :

Are NH have to use this FAQ, or they can use their own in the NH BT, which allows to engage a second unit if you are already engage with one.

I don't know if it's a better way to explain this ... 

let me know

[EnixLHQ]

1 hour ago, Whiteman said:

I don't know if it's a better way to explain this ... 

let me know

Okay, I think I get the question. There are two questions here, and I will try to answer both.

Question 1: What takes precedence, Core Book, Battletomes, or FAQs?

Answer: The Core Book is the foundation and sets all the rules in the most basic and generic way. It's the default ruleset. The Battletome comes after that, overriding anything that it says operates differently than the Core Rules. This is what enables armies to have their own rule sets, a battletome has to overwrite the Core Book, but only in ways it says are different than the Core Rules. FAQs then further overwrite both the Core Book and Battletomes, but only if their release date is after everything already mentioned. In other words it goes Core Rules < Battletome < FAQs where FAQs are newer than the battletome.

Question 2: Consider the following wording - Nighthaunt Battletome, page 53 - Returning Slain Models

Quote

Several Nighthaunt abilities allow you to return slain models to a unit.
When you do so, set up the models one at a time within 1" of a model from the unit they are returning to (this can be a model you returned to the unit earlier in the same phase).
The slain models you return to a unit can only be set up within 3" of an enemy unit if one or more models from the unit they are returning to are already within 3" of an enemy unit.

Does the final sentence mean that if I return models to a unit that's NOT in combat, but I have a unit that IS in combat, can I then return models to the non-combat group in order to break the 3" rule and bring them into combat?

Answer:

The "model return" core rule was FAQed to the following:

Quote

Set up the models one at a time within 1" of a model from the unit they are returning to – this can be a model you returned to the unit earlier in the same phase. The slain models you return to a unit can only be set up within 3" of an enemy unit if one or more models from the unit they are returning to are already within 3" of that enemy unit.

The above clarifies that you can only return models within 3" of an enemy to a unit that itself was already within 3" of that same enemy unit. You cannot use this ability to snare additional enemy units into combat. Essentially, you check to see if the unit was already in combat range prior to returning a model, and if so you may continue to place models within 3".

This FAQ was released on 16/12/2019, and the NH battletome was released in 2018. Since the FAQ came out after the NH battletome, the FAQ's definition of model return applies.

So, after everything being said, the rule is as follows: If you can return a model to a unit, it must go to a unit that has models missing (can't add to a unit that's already full). In addition, models must be returned outside 3" of any enemy units, unless that specific unit was already within 3" of an enemy prior to models being returned.