AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Kharneth]

On turn 1 I can generate 9 fate points, which means if I lose 6 pink horrors (avg swords+sacrifice) I can summon 20 blue horrors on the first turn. Or, I can summon 10 blue horrors and then on the 2nd turn I can summon 3 flamers with another 10 blue horrors. 

Funny that you say that about Tzeentch's Inferno because that was my original set-up before you said that LoC gets Bolt of Tzeentch because it's the best spell. It is, and I do like that set-up, but Inferno being the hardest to cast makes good sense to be put on the most competent caster. Bolt of Tzeentch is certainly not wasted on Pink Horrors. Of course, this is only if you have room for the spells. I only have room for 1 damaging spell in addition to Bolt and Glimpse. Unchecked Mutation has a more reliable cast and more reliable damage, so... idk.

On my first turn, I killed 7 pink horrors and was able to summon 20 blue horrors. I had 10 blue horrors and 10 acolytes on each of the center objectives in addition to owning my home objective. I thought I had them secure, but his abomination killed 10 blues and then 10 acolytes during his double turn. My screen protected my LoC from the hellpit, but not the clanrats.

Some issues I had that I can perceive having with your strategy, too... the blue horrors that I put on the border objective that I was able to secure, that would be the one that I don't abandon, once he gets a couple rats near it and in combat with my guys there I can no longer summon within range of the objective. In your scenario where I've only got 1 border objective protected by 10 blues and 10 acolytes, what are the other acolytes doing? Are they standing between the enemy and the objective to slow them down? I need to find a way to fight 6"+ off the objective so I can summon reinforcements on the objective. 

I have a lot of things going for me, his ratling guns mostly shoot acolytes because he doesn't like killing blues and pinks, the gaunt has -1 to hit and the LoC is either out of range or for whatever reason he doesn't target him. He shot him with a ratling once and might start doing it more, but right now his target priority is not perfect. Also, I think I can kill his ratling guns pretty quickly. The 25-man unit doesn't take battleshock, so I was thinking of targeting the chieftan and ratling guns first. I think I can kill the chieftan and all 4 guns in a single turn provided they're all in range and los. 

The idea of flying 10" with the LoC and dropping some blues 12" away was quite literally impossible during the game. I continually looked for opportunities, but with his grey seer camping his home objective and his ratling guns lagging behind, I had few places where the LoC could fit and in those locations he'd be vulnerable and wouldn't have any summoning locations in range that would've been worth the loss.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Kharneth

[mmimzie]

3 minutes ago, Kharneth said:

On turn 1 I can generate 9 fate points, which means if I lose 6 pink horrors (avg swords+sacrifice) I can summon 20 blue horrors on the first turn. Or, I can summon 10 blue horrors and then on the 2nd turn I can summon 3 flamers with another 10 blue horrors. 

Funny that you say that about Tzeentch's Inferno because that was my original set-up before you said that LoC gets Bolt of Tzeentch because it's the best spell. It is, and I do like that set-up, but Inferno being the hardest to cast makes good sense to be put on the most competent caster. Bolt of Tzeentch is certainly not wasted on Pink Horrors. Of course, this is only if you have room for the spells. I only have room for 1 damaging spell in addition to Bolt and Glimpse. Unchecked Mutation has a more reliable cast and more reliable damage, so... idk.

On my first turn, I killed 7 pink horrors and was able to summon 20 blue horrors. I had 10 blue horrors and 10 acolytes on each of the center objectives in addition to my own. I thought I had them secure, but his abomination killed 10 blues and then 10 acolytes during his double turn. My screen protected my LoC from the hellpit, but not the clanrats.

Some issues I had that I can perceive having with your strategy, too... the blue horrors that I put on the border objective that I was able to secure, that would be the one that I don't abandon, once he gets a couple rats near it and in combat with my guys there I can no longer summon within range of the objective. In your scenario where I've only got 1 border objective protected by 10 blues and 10 acolytes, what are the other acolytes doing? Are they standing between the enemy and the objective to slow them down? I need to fight 6"+ off the objective so I can summon reinforcements on the objective. 

I have a lot of things going for me, his ratling guns mostly shoot acolytes because he doesn't like killing blues and pinks, the gaunt has -1 to hit and the LoC is either out of range or for whatever reason he doesn't target him. He shot him with a ratling once and might start doing it more, but right now his target priority is not perfect. Also, I think I can kill his ratling guns pretty quickly. The 25-man unit doesn't take battleshock, so I was thinking of targeting the chieftan and ratling guns first. I think I can kill the chieftan and all 4 guns in a single turn provided they're all in range and los. 

The idea of flying 10" with the LoC and dropping some blues 12" away was quite literally impossible during the game. I continually looked for opportunities, but with his grey seer camping his home objective and his ratling guns lagging behind, I had few places where the LoC could fit and in those locations he'd be vulnerable and wouldn't have any summoning locations in range that would've been worth the loss.

I still kind of lean toward bolt of change because the damage from it is more reliable. Whiel firestorm can be more but is very spikey. 

So basicly, you summon your 20 blues onto one border objective. You put one unit of blues up as far as they can go, and then the 2nd unit of blues ~5" behind that first unit. So only one of the untis of blues can be killed. Now he either double turns and doesn't. IF he double turns he might secure both border objectives, but that's alright because on your turn you acolytes and pinks can get you back on your border objective. 

The gaunt summoner snipes down the the 25man clan rat unit, and i'd say the LoC should be taking care of the ratlings or the hell pit abomination.  Honestly the ratlings even with the -1 to hit 4 ratlings can put down a gaunt summoner in a single turn. 

Turn 3 or 4 you go for that extra objective to even up or win. Maybe you can't summon right on the objective, but i find that usualy i can because my spell damage is general enough to purge and area of models. Failing that if all your opponent has protecting an area is rattlings and a grey seer or 10 ratlings that your spells only bring down to 1 or 2 models. You can pre summon your blues within range and then walk then onto the objective your next turn. 

[Kharneth]

26 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

I still kind of lean toward bolt of change because the damage from it is more reliable. Whiel firestorm can be more but is very spikey. 

So basicly, you summon your 20 blues onto one border objective. You put one unit of blues up as far as they can go, and then the 2nd unit of blues ~5" behind that first unit. So only one of the untis of blues can be killed. Now he either double turns and doesn't. IF he double turns he might secure both border objectives, but that's alright because on your turn you acolytes and pinks can get you back on your border objective. 

The gaunt summoner snipes down the the 25man clan rat unit, and i'd say the LoC should be taking care of the ratlings or the hell pit abomination.  Honestly the ratlings even with the -1 to hit 4 ratlings can put down a gaunt summoner in a single turn. 

Turn 3 or 4 you go for that extra objective to even up or win. Maybe you can't summon right on the objective, but i find that usualy i can because my spell damage is general enough to purge and area of models. Failing that if all your opponent has protecting an area is rattlings and a grey seer or 10 ratlings that your spells only bring down to 1 or 2 models. You can pre summon your blues within range and then walk then onto the objective your next turn. 

I was talking Inferno vs Mutation, Bolt of Tzeentch is superior. 

I'm either going Inferno on LoC and Bolt on Pinks or Bolt on LoC and Fold Reality on Pinks. I know Fold Reality doesn't have a great target, but with an average of 6 killed each turn and only a single reliable Destiny Die of 1 I found I could only kill off the Pinks twice (they died before this, but if they were still alive I could only kill them one more time before they'd be nearly gone). 

The objective is 12" forward from both of our deployment zones. The furthest I can summon is 9" away from the enemy, meaning the blues that go the furthest they can go are only 3" in front of the objective. So you're right, IF he double turns, he'll likely contest and probably will take ownership of that objective. 

The gaunt summoner failed Infernal Flames on turn 2, 3, and 4 so it'll be nice to not fail again. I've seen him destroy that 25-man unit in a single turn. The ratling guns are spread across the board evenly like 6-12" away from each other. They can't all focus fire on a single target. From more than 9" away, they hit the Gaunt on a 5+. I know they're a threat, but if I take care of them early they won't be able to harm the Gaunt and so far he has not prioritized him. 

I've found he's particularly difficult to get off an objective prior to the end of the movement phase because he'll often have separate units. For example, first he had his Hellpit and Chieftan on the objective, I can't clear that. Then he had 2 ratling guns on the objective, which would require 2 different spells. I had other things going on then, but the point is it's not always a single-spell solution, though I am working to get this strategy down because I know how useful it'll be to clear an objective in the hero phase and then secure it with a summoned unit. 

We will most likely not be doing this mission again, but I've taken the advice to heart and will try to make use of it in the next game. I need to find the balance between controlling the battlefield and not spreading myself too thin. 

In every single battle with this enemy I will get to choose who gets the first turn as I have less drops. Is it better to get the first turn to get my summons out as far as possible or to take the second turn so I can be in range to nuke things? 

Edited December 7, 2018 by Kharneth

[Alith]

Is the shadespire warband a decent starting to point for a Disciples of Tzeentch warband?

I was planning to start a 1000 pt Tzeench band  with it and a box of acolytes, tzaangors, skyfires and maybe another hero.

 

[Magnus The Blue]

Not great, as most of the models in it can't be played on their own.  The Changecult box gives you an excellent selection of strong units, or if you love the daemons, the start collecting box is good value (although most of the contents are meh on the table).

[Alith]

They can be played on their own though, because they have a warscroll just for them.

Regarding the changecut box, that would be my first choice however it's no longer available.

 

I will only get demons after 1000 pts and probably just horrors (or a lord of change if I get the money for it)  so the starting box is not very interesting to me

Edited December 10, 2018 by Alith

[Magnus The Blue]

Yes, you can use the warscroll to get all the models in, but it's a bit of an abomination and not very good at anything.   

Interesting that the Changecult is out of availability on the webstore, I was in Warhammer world last week and they had a few on the shelves. Must be the last few left. Worth checking independent retailers as some might have one gathering dust.

Don't forget you need at least some daemons for summoning, although the Blues and Brims box is a decent and cheap way of doing that.

If your not keen on demons, then a box of Tzaangor, box of Cultists and a Gaunt (with familiars) summoner is a sensible start , then add more Tzaangors of various types to bulk it up.

[kenshin620]

Generally the Shadespire warbands have very niche roles. Especially since you're "overpaying" for a pretty tiny unit (that also has a confused role) that would likely get killed in any sort of combat.

 

Heck the Skeleton Warband isn't even usable for Legions of Nagash. That shows how much thought went into some of the Matched Play profiles!

Edited December 10, 2018 by kenshin620

[mmimzie]

I think the eyes of nine war band is meh. Some of the other war and have good places like steelhesrt and zarbag. 

 

That aside if you want to run a tzneetch army that has blocks of 40 acolytes. I might consider taking the eyes of nine. That 1 extra CP a turn from his spell will find alot of value very quickly in that army. 

[TactfulSaturn]

Hi guys,

What weapon loadout do you find most effective on the Lord of Change? 

I know ideally you would be keeping the LoC out of combat as much as possible, but I've found the rod of sorcery to be pretty lackluster and then if the LoC does find himself in combat the staff alone means he is pretty defenceless.

Do you go for the sword or the rod? Or perhaps even the beak and claws? 

[marke]

Thinking the same thing with LoC, as I've to build and paint one soon, but maybe I'll go with just the staff for aesthetic reasons. If wysiwyg is not an isssue idk, looks come first for me.

[Kharneth]

I modeled mine with the rod and sort of regret it.

The staff does mediocre damage, an average of 3 wounds inflicted before saves. The damage varies a bit, due to the 2d6 shots, but I don't think I've ever gotten more than 4 wounds with it. I thought I wanted the rod because I didn't want to be in combat, and that's still the case, but I find that running for extra distance is usually helpful because I use the LoC to summon demons. I find myself deciding that the extra distance is more important than the firepower pretty often. On the flip side, though I don't want to be in combat with the LoC, it does still happen. 

For perspective, Pink Horrors and Blue Horrors inflict an average of 2.5 wounds with their shooting attacks, so the rod is a bit more firepower than you'd get by summoning another unit of blue horrors. 

The curved beak and talons will deal 2.64 -1 rend wounds. The sword will deal 2.46 -2 rend wounds. The sword is superior against all but 6+ armor enemies and even then, it's close enough that I think the sword is more valuable than just the staff (obviously aesthetics can't be measured). 

Unless I'm missing something, it seems like a minor decision. I don't think you can go wrong. 

[Magnus The Blue]

The sword is superior in my opinion. If you get into combat it works effectively with fate dice and gets the most value from arcane transformation.  In DoT you have lots of units that don't like being in combat so making the LoC at least ok can make for some easier decisions if you run out of screening units.

[Kharneth]

9 minutes ago, Magnus The Blue said:

The sword is superior in my opinion. If you get into combat it works effectively with fate dice and gets the most value from arcane transformation.  In DoT you have lots of units that don't like being in combat so making the LoC at least ok can make for some easier decisions if you run out of screening units.

The idea of using the sword because arcane transformation works the best with it doesn't seem to be enough justification. What I mean is, do you use other characters that benefit from Arcane Transformation? It would seem like a heavy use of a spell slot to cast that spell once to make the LoC better in combat when it's already not intended for combat. 

I agree that having the LoC proficient in combat allows for more tactical options, but if you've been using arcane transformation to, I assume, increase the sword's attack by 1 have you been using this to enhance anyone else's characteristics? Perhaps +1 Move on Gaunt Summoner, +1 Attack on LoC, and +1 Attack on Ogroid (just thinking out loud if I can make proper use of this). 🤔

[newsun]

8 hours ago, Kharneth said:

The idea of using the sword because arcane transformation works the best with it doesn't seem to be enough justification. What I mean is, do you use other characters that benefit from Arcane Transformation? It would seem like a heavy use of a spell slot to cast that spell once to make the LoC better in combat when it's already not intended for combat. 

I agree that having the LoC proficient in combat allows for more tactical options, but if you've been using arcane transformation to, I assume, increase the sword's attack by 1 have you been using this to enhance anyone else's characteristics? Perhaps +1 Move on Gaunt Summoner, +1 Attack on LoC, and +1 Attack on Ogroid (just thinking out loud if I can make proper use of this). 🤔

I'm thinking transformation is not worth the spell slot. I think it does not much matter which weapon, though lean towards beak for number of attacks.

[newsun]

8 hours ago, Kharneth said:

The idea of using the sword because arcane transformation works the best with it doesn't seem to be enough justification. What I mean is, do you use other characters that benefit from Arcane Transformation? It would seem like a heavy use of a spell slot to cast that spell once to make the LoC better in combat when it's already not intended for combat. 

I agree that having the LoC proficient in combat allows for more tactical options, but if you've been using arcane transformation to, I assume, increase the sword's attack by 1 have you been using this to enhance anyone else's characteristics? Perhaps +1 Move on Gaunt Summoner, +1 Attack on LoC, and +1 Attack on Ogroid (just thinking out loud if I can make proper use of this). 🤔

I'm thinking transformation is not worth the spell slot. I think it does not much matter which weapon, though lean towards beak for number of attacks.

[mmimzie]

Honestly what the LoC is armed with doesnt really matter in my book. It's pretty small potatoes. I personally like the sword only because it forces anything in combat with the LoC to fight first or threats killing a few models that could be the difference to killing the LoC or not. Also I think the sword looks really cool. 

 

Other than that the rod is a good option as it let's your LoC add to your growing shooting force, but the fact that your opponent doesnt have to trade anything to fight your LoC feels bad. 

 

Claws are to middling in my book. More reliably, but not by much. Lower than the sword for damage output against many targets. 

 

Transformation is pretty meh, but not worthless if you summon a herald. You may give him transformations as after the herald burns his 3d6 roll you really dont care tooo much for attempting to cast his spell??? That said transformation is just kind of too low impact for the units we have available.aybe archaeon or a chaos lord maybe on manticore??

[Magnus The Blue]

Yup, as others have said there isn't much difference, but the sword has some (relatively minor) advantages.  Arcane transformation isn't a great spell most of the time but it is an extra cast that doesn't rely on enemies being in 18" range, so I usually give it to a hero that will usually be casting their base offensive spell as something to use when out of range for damage spells.  In a pure demon force (which I often play) you soon run out of good spells to cast, so Arcane Transformation gives you an ok bonus and a fate point.  That said an arcane transformed sword LoC has dug me out of trouble a few times, especially if you have some fate dice of 2 for auto wounds (they aren't very useful for much else) and some 4s for auto hits (less often have these spare).  Also nice if you go for a tanking LoC (-2 to hit version) and want to land some damage while you tying units up.

[mmimzie]

47 minutes ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Yup, as others have said there isn't much difference, but the sword has some (relatively minor) advantages.  Arcane transformation isn't a great spell most of the time but it is an extra cast that doesn't rely on enemies being in 18" range, so I usually give it to a hero that will usually be casting their base offensive spell as something to use when out of range for damage spells.  In a pure demon force (which I often play) you soon run out of good spells to cast, so Arcane Transformation gives you an ok bonus and a fate point.  That said an arcane transformed sword LoC has dug me out of trouble a few times, especially if you have some fate dice of 2 for auto wounds (they aren't very useful for much else) and some 4s for auto hits (less often have these spare).  Also nice if you go for a tanking LoC (-2 to hit version) and want to land some damage while you tying units up.

-2 to hit?

[Asimov]

Got my LoC fully magnetized. I can be WYSIWYG and test the various options (and it is easier for transport). 

From my experience, I had often my LoC with sword behind screens and thought that I would have used the rod. But honestly it would not have made much difference. If the LoC is still behind screens at the end of the game it probably means you won already. 

[Magnus The Blue]

39 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

-2 to hit?

Incorporeal form (General) and Gryph Feather charm. -2 to be hit in combat and -1 from shooting.  Great at tanking anything that relies on rolls to hit to do all its damage.

On the subject of tanking, has anyone tried a Fatemaster with one of the MS '6+ saves do a mortal wound to the attacked' artefacts?  Very situational but against any non-flying unit without rend you're getting a 2+ save and causing mortal wounds on a  4+. Combine with shield of fate to get really silly.

Edited December 12, 2018 by Magnus The Blue

[Asimov]

2 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Incorporeal form (General) and Gryph Feather charm. -2 to be hit in combat and -1 from shooting.  Great at tanking anything that relies on rolls to hit to do all its damage.

On the subject of tanking, has anyone tried a Fatemaster with one of the MS '6+ saves do a mortal wound to the attacked' artefacts?  Very situational but against any non-flying unit without rend you're getting a 2+ save and causing mortal wounds on a  4+. Combine with shield of fate to get really silly.

I really like the idea!

I am still  missing this hero, but when I get it I will give it a try.

In addition, you can run  the Arcanite Cabal batalion (at least for fun and variety) to make your Fatemaster the master and use destiny dices on his save rolls to get the chance to reroll them... and making him a  spell caster eventually. 

[mmimzie]

5 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Incorporeal form (General) and Gryph Feather charm. -2 to be hit in combat and -1 from shooting.  Great at tanking anything that relies on rolls to hit to do all its damage.

On the subject of tanking, has anyone tried a Fatemaster with one of the MS '6+ saves do a mortal wound to the attacked' artefacts?  Very situational but against any non-flying unit without rend you're getting a 2+ save and causing mortal wounds on a  4+. Combine with shield of fate to get really silly.

That is really cool nice find. Really can change how the model plays. Letting him be very aggressive and hold stuff up. 

 

Though dont know if I'd use the incorporial form as i think my army is only afraid of heavy shooting and magic that can snipe characters. So I take the feather charm and magical supremacy. 

 

Magical supremacy is vital against stormcast with comet, nurgle with nasty rain, arkcan the black extending his range, morathi, and lord kroak & slann from seraphon.  All of which can kill or make it very possible to kill your gaunt summoner on a single turn. 

The fate master guy would be pretty cool. Only thing I dont love is he is small so it's easy not to have alot of your models attacking him. I did a thing with deepkin where I had ishlaen guard with shield of thorns which was a 3+ rerollable doing mortals on 6s, and the key was getting as many enemy models forced to attack as possible. 

 

Both seem like the makings of a very interesting list with a kind of different battle plant. 

[Kharneth]

@mmimzie What is the benefit of Magical Supremacy? I did not see an updated version and I thought that the rules said we can unbind spells from 30" away, so how does 27" help?

Also, I heard that the chaos familiars on the Gaunt Summoner effectively increase his number of wounds but when I read the rules it says that the attacker chooses who to allocate the wound to. Is there an updated version to this rule somewhere? 

@Magnus The Blue I often use my Destiny Dice of 2 for non-pink battleshock. Sometimes I'll figure out exactly what result I'll need and I'll use that dice, but often I find 3s and 4s more valuable than 2s so I'll use up a 2 for battleshock even if I needed a 3 or 4. I feel like using a destiny dice of 2 on a 2+ roll is kind of a waste as you have an 83% chance of success already. 

Edited December 12, 2018 by Kharneth

[mmimzie]

2 hours ago, Kharneth said:

@mmimzie What is the benefit of Magical Supremacy? I did not see an updated version and I thought that the rules said we can unbind spells from 30" away, so how does 27" help?

Also, I heard that the chaos familiars on the Gaunt Summoner effectively increase his number of wounds but when I read the rules it says that the attacker chooses who to allocate the wound to. Is there an updated version to this rule somewhere? 

@Magnus The Blue I often use my Destiny Dice of 2 for non-pink battleshock. Sometimes I'll figure out exactly what result I'll need and I'll use that dice, but often I find 3s and 4s more valuable than 2s so I'll use up a 2 for battleshock even if I needed a 3 or 4. I feel like using a destiny dice of 2 on a 2+ roll is kind of a waste as you have an 83% chance of success already. 

Yeah no extra wounds from familiars. They are only there for +1 to cast and what ever else the other do. 

 

Magical supremacy was FAQ'd to give +12" to your unbind range. Meaning those super long range casters like the ones I mentioned are very likely to be in unbind range. where as all the casters I listed are more than safe if they are more than 30" after and can cast with impunity. 

 

It's all about making my turn 1 go as well as possible in my mind.