AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Kharneth]

42 minutes ago, Reezark_SP said:

What is a sufficient amount of Pink Horrors to start out with to be able to hopefully get 2 groups of Blue Horrors on the table by turn 1 or 2? Is 1 Unit of Pinks and Quicksilver Swords going to do the job or would I want 2 Pinks and a Pendulum at minimum?

Depends on how many Fate Points you're getting in addition to Horror kills. 

The Pendulum will do 3.5 wounds per unit and costs twice the price of the Swords. Statistically, the swords will do 4 wounds to a single unit. So, Pendulum+2 units will give you a reliable 14 blue horror points and 1 fate point. A single unit+swords will get you 8 blue horror points and 1 fate point. Pendulum+3 units will get you 21 blue horror points. 

If you take Arcane Sacrifice with an Arcanite hero you can get another d3 killed (avg 2). If you take Mark of the Conjurer on LoC/Kairos you can get 4 fate points (or 6 with Chronomantic Cogs). 

Say you used Quicksilver Swords with Mark of the Conjurer Lord of Change on Pink Horrors. You'd kill 4 Horrors, generate 8 horror points and 2 fate points. Now you'll need to cast 10 spells in order to get a 2nd unit of blue horrors. 

Say you used Pendulum with Mark of the Conjurer Lord of Change on two units of Pink Horrors. You'd kill 7 Horrors, generate 14 horror points and 2 fate points. Now you'll need to cast 4 spells in order to get a 2nd unit of blue horrors. If you took Chronomantic Cogs, you could cast a 3rd spell with the LoC to give you 2 fate points, leaving you with only needing 2 more (and you already have 2 units of Pinks). 

Pendulum+2 units of Pink Horrors seems to be pretty reliable. You'll likely be generating a few points more than you'll need (on average) which gives you room for failing spells or being unbound. 

This is all theoretical, I've only played one game and my Quicksilver Swords dealt 3 wounds turn 1 and 1 wound turn 2. 

Edited November 27, 2018 by Kharneth

[Reezark_SP]

1 hour ago, Kharneth said:

Depends on how many Fate Points you're getting in addition to Horror kills. 

The Pendulum will do 3.5 wounds per unit and costs twice the price of the Swords. Statistically, the swords will do 4 wounds to a single unit. So, Pendulum+2 units will give you a reliable 14 blue horror points and 1 fate point. A single unit+swords will get you 8 blue horror points and 1 fate point. Pendulum+3 units will get you 21 blue horror points. 

If you take Arcane Sacrifice with an Arcanite hero you can get another d3 killed (avg 2). If you take Mark of the Conjurer on LoC/Kairos you can get 4 fate points (or 6 with Chronomantic Cogs). 

Say you used Quicksilver Swords with Mark of the Conjurer Lord of Change on Pink Horrors. You'd kill 4 Horrors, generate 8 horror points and 2 fate points. Now you'll need to cast 10 spells in order to get a 2nd unit of blue horrors. 

Say you used Pendulum with Mark of the Conjurer Lord of Change on two units of Pink Horrors. You'd kill 7 Horrors, generate 14 horror points and 2 fate points. Now you'll need to cast 4 spells in order to get a 2nd unit of blue horrors. If you took Chronomantic Cogs, you could cast a 3rd spell with the LoC to give you 2 fate points, leaving you with only needing 2 more (and you already have 2 units of Pinks). 

Pendulum+2 units of Pink Horrors seems to be pretty reliable. You'll likely be generating a few points more than you'll need (on average) which gives you room for failing spells or being unbound. 

This is all theoretical, I've only played one game and my Quicksilver Swords dealt 3 wounds turn 1 and 1 wound turn 2. 

Hey thanks for the analysis I think thats exactly what I'm looking for. For your information this is the list I am building towards:

Lord of Change (General) (Tzeench's Inferno)
Wellspring of Arcane Might
Mark of the Conjurer

Tzaangor Shaman (Fold Reality)

Gaunt Summoner with Familiars (Glimpse the Future)

Battleline:

Acolytes x10

Acolytes x10

Pink Horrors x10 (Bolt of Tzeench)

Other:

Enlightened on Disc x9

Skyfires x6

Endless Spells:

Quicksilver Swords

Cogs

I am not sure if the shooting from the Skyfires will be better or to try more aggressively to get as many Blues out as possible. If Blues is the better way to go, I can drop the Skyfires in favor of a Curseling, a 2nd unit of Pinks, and a Pendulum. 

[mmimzie]

A another note on summoning. I've been running pendulum and burning head  hitting 3 units of pink horror to summon an average of 30 blue horrors the first turn. 

51 minutes ago, Reezark_SP said:

Tzaangor Shaman (Fold Reality

I've stopped bringing myshaman. Hes pretty great for further up field set up of blue horrors, and of course his buff is quite nice on a big unit of enlightend, but his worth becomes abit questionable once you also drop the skyfires. The enlightend hit quite hard enough with just the 9 models, and the pink horrors get an extra + to cast when near a hero so they can throw fold reality for you. 

 

 

Edit: a more depth reasoning on the shaman. +1 to hit is basicly +1/3rd to the spear  and beam attacks damage. However those two are only about 55-60% of the damage of a whole model. Meaning by bringing the shaman you are basicly spending 180 pts for only about a 83pts worth of bump to your enlightend unit.  Which isnt terrible and is pretty good depending on how you see the unit, and gets better when you bring skyfires as well. 

Edited November 27, 2018 by mmimzie

[Kharneth]

1 hour ago, Reezark_SP said:

Hey thanks for the analysis I think thats exactly what I'm looking for. For your information this is the list I am building towards:

Hey no problem! It was useful for me, too. I was worried about lacking fodder if I removed the acolytes and took 30 pink horrors, but after looking at the numbers I think it could work, and be fun. Blues are not a replacement for Skyfires, but they certainly are for acolytes. The downside to blues is that the enemy can block their placement, but I'm guessing that's why it's so important to get the summoning out early. 

I'm thinking I might try this (proxy) with a friend:

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Leaders
Gaunt Summoner and Chaos Familiars (180)
- General
- Trait: Arcane Sacrifice 
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future
Lord Of Change (380)
- Artefact: Mark of the Conjurer 
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
The Blue Scribes (140)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
Ogroid Thaumaturge (180)
- Lore of Fate: Treacherous Bond

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)
- Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation

Units
9 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (420)

Endless Spells
Aethervoid Pendulum (40)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 98
 

Since the Shaman is 180 points and does not increase the potency more than adding 3 Enlightened for 140 points I'm thinking I won't take him at all (but that's because I'm not taking any Skyfires or Tzaangor units, too). In terms of pure summoning potential, the Curseling and Gaunt are the cheapest in points per spell casts, but I don't really want the Curseling. The Blue Scribes is still cheaper per cast than most other heroes, and giving all my wizards rerolls to their casts will be very helpful for summoning and will let me save on destiny dice. Ogroid seems to have a lot of potential being able to deal good melee damage, auto-heal, and cast spells. I'm hoping Treacherous Bond will be a useful way to kill off horrors while enraged without risking dying. 

The one thing that worried me was having no fodder at all. But if I get off all my spells on turn 1, I should get an average of 25 blue horror points and 13 fate points, giving me the option to drop 20-30 blues.

Edited November 27, 2018 by Kharneth

[newsun]

6 hours ago, Kharneth said:

I'm hoping for insight from other players to avoid buying units I'll end up realizing I won't use. 

I really like Pink Horrors, but they're expensive and I'm not sure I can field 3 units, but I'd like to. I already have 3 enlightened and I'd like at least 3 more, but I'm worried about their usage. In 2,000 points 9 enlightened and a shaman is 600 points. That just seems like a lot of points located in a small unit, granted they are very fast and the points include a wizard. I'm also worried about Fold Reality because 1 in 6 casts is going to be fatal. I recently discovered (on here) that Kairo can help mitigate this with his one-time ability, but I don't think Kairo is a replacement for a Lord of Change since he's missing the command ability and his unique spell isn't quite as good, imo (plus I'd need to buy a spawn or two). 

I'm not sure if I could fit all of the things and the advice I previously got was not to take more than 3 battleline units, so if I took 30 Pinks and 0 kairic acolytes, that might not be so good. On the other hand, maybe being able to summon 20 blue horrors on turn 1 would make-up for it. 

You may want to consider proxying then. You can do a ton of research online and have the collective tell you the most efficient list, buy that stuff only to find out that does not work with your play style at all.

[Kharneth]

21 minutes ago, newsun said:

You may want to consider proxying then. You can do a ton of research online and have the collective tell you the most efficient list, buy that stuff only to find out that does not work with your play style at all.

That's why I talk about the strategies and synergies that can be used in the army and how they've performed in other people's experience. That's why I don't just ask what units are good, but I try to understand what is making them good and what role they're playing in other people's armies. I do plan to proxy, but it helps to know how the army either a) is supposed to function, or b) is used effectively. Especially since Tzeentch is like a whole new world to me. The shooting and magic phase have usually been empty for my armies. 

I got some really helpful advice from I think mmimzie and used it with one of the lists posted. I will definitely be proxying before buying

[newsun]

3 minutes ago, Kharneth said:

That's why I talk about the strategies and synergies that can be used in the army and how they've performed in other people's experience. That's why I don't just ask what units are good, but I try to understand what is making them good and what role they're playing in other people's armies. I do plan to proxy, but it helps to know how the army either a) is supposed to function, or b) is used effectively. Especially since Tzeentch is like a whole new world to me. The shooting and magic phase have usually been empty for my armies. 

I got some really helpful advice from I think mmimzie and used it with one of the lists posted. I will definitely be proxying before buying

Yeah I saw his post came in after I started typing and submitted. I really like that Tzeentch does have some combat now though. Old school version was a wet noodle outside of magic phase and no way to leave combat.

I'm curious to see how your list plays out.

Was discussing running two units of 6 enlightened with min units of screamers to interdict on the way and maybe help proc the rerolls too.

[Kharneth]

7 hours ago, mmimzie said:

A another note on summoning. I've been running pendulum and burning head  hitting 3 units of pink horror to summon an average of 30 blue horrors the first turn. 

When using 3 units of Pink Horrors do you ever feel limited in your ability to spread across the board since all the units need to be within range of the pendulum/head? 

[mmimzie]

2 hours ago, Kharneth said:

When using 3 units of Pink Horrors do you ever feel limited in your ability to spread across the board since all the units need to be within range of the pendulum/head? 

No because your summons are how you "move" accross the battle field. Aside from that you have enlighted as well who can get to a place and claim it. 

[Asimov]

I am gonna play against Beastclaw Raiders tonight in a 1800pts game. I am expecting 3  Thundertusks (the mammoth)... 
So, I got inspired by your lists and I want to playtest them. This is what I am gonna play: 

Allegiance: Tzeentch
Gaunt Summoner and Chaos Familiars (180)
- General
- Trait: Arcane Sacrifice 
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future
Lord Of Change (380)
- Artefact: Mark of the Conjurer 
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Ogroid Thaumaturge (180)
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
Tzaangor Shaman (180)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)
9 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (420)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)
Soulsnare Shackles (20)
Quicksilver Swords (20)

Total: 1800 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 99
 

Since they are kind of slow regarding the last armies I faced, I expect to make a good use of the Schackles. Otherwise it is about optimizing the spells, this is my first time with the LoC so I have a lot of expectations. I wanted to play the Blue Scrib with it to make the spells even more reliable but it is still being built. 

If you have some feedbacks on the Beastclaw Raiders match-up they are welcomed!

Edited November 28, 2018 by Asimov

[Captain James Hook]

Hello everyone.  After my legions of nagash I'm planning to  run a tzeentch army. I started to think of an army mixed with the new beast ost chaos with the idea to create an horde of goats devoted to tzeentch. Since I'll be buy the changecult battle Force and a start collecting beast of chaos i thought of this army:

alligiance: tzeentch

Lord of change, general

Tzaangor shaman 

Herald of tzeentch 

10 kairic acolytes 

6 tzaangors enlightened 

PHANTASMAGORIA OF FATE battallion:

Great bray shaman 

20 tzaangors 

20 bestigors 

10 ungors

Tot.1980, traits and spells yet to be decided. Any advices on traits and spells and the list in general? 

[marke]

Speaking of Enlightened there doesn't seem to be much discussion about discs vs hooves. I haven't played my Tzeentch yet, but hooves look so much better with the reduced cost. What am I missing here?

Edited November 28, 2018 by marke

[Magnus The Blue]

Spoiler

9 minutes ago, Captain James Hook said:

Hello everyone.  After my legions of nagash I'm planning to  run a tzeentch army. I started to think of an army mixed with the new beast ost chaos with the idea to create an horde of goats devoted to tzeentch. Since I'll be buy the changecult battle Force and a start collecting beast of chaos i thought of this army:

alligiance: tzeentch

Lord of change, general

Tzaangor shaman 

Herald of tzeentch 

10 kairic acolytes 

6 tzaangors enlightened 

PHANTASMAGORIA OF FATE battallion:

Great bray shaman 

20 tzaangors 

20 bestigors 

10 ungors

Tot.1980, traits and spells yet to be decided. Any advices on traits and spells and the list in general? 

 

 

I was thinking something similar but going Beast alliance (see Beast Thread for my list).  I think that because the Phantasmagoria is so expensive, you really need the ring as much value out of it as possible.  To me that means not too many wizards as thy water down the value of the Battalion ability, as much as possible of your army in the Battalion so you are going to get choice of first turn, and Bad ****** artefacts to take advantage of having two.  

With that in mind and lack of casters to take advantage of the LoC command ability, I'd think about putting in a Beastlord with a choppy artefact (probably instead of the Herald), swapping out the Acoloytes for a screen that fits into the battalion (ungors, or Centigors are great) and move all the Tzaangor units into the battalion. Of course, less casters limited the value of summoning, which is why I prefer the beasts allegiance abilities. Obviously best for you too stick to Tzeentch if your running a LoC or loses access to the Lore of Change.

9 minutes ago, marke said:

Speaking of Enlightened there doesn't seem to be much discussion about discs vs hooves. I haven't played my Tzeentch yet, but hooves look so much better with the reduced cost. What am I misding here?

I think both are good.  The disk attacked mean that their damage output is similar point for point so basically your trading a bit of resilience (per point spent) for a lot of movement. Disks also have the advantage of being demons, so can be targeted with fold reality (not a minor consideration).

 

 

[Johnny Eyebrows]

Hi all - first time poster :)

I'm going to a tournament towards the beginning of next year, only my 2nd one. I was looking at maybe trying a Changehost, wondered what folks thoughts on the matter were?

Current idea is (2000pts)

LoC, with Staff, Mark of the Conjurer, Magical Supremacy

Ogrid Thaumaturge

Blue Scribes

Herald on foot

2x 10 Pink Horrors

2x 10 Brimstone Horrors

2x 3 Screamers

1x 10 Blue Horrors

1x 10 Acolytes

with either the shackles or the wall (forgotten the name...) to limit opponent's movement.

 

Not sure on the viability of the list though. Does anyone have experience of using the changehost? What would you do?

(Ogrid is there because 1- I have one, and 2- the model is great :) )

[Asimov]

53 minutes ago, Johnny Eyebrows said:

Hi all - first time poster

I'm going to a tournament towards the beginning of next year, only my 2nd one. I was looking at maybe trying a Changehost, wondered what folks thoughts on the matter were?

Current idea is (2000pts)

LoC, with Staff, Mark of the Conjurer, Magical Supremacy

Ogrid Thaumaturge

Blue Scribes

Herald on foot

2x 10 Pink Horrors

2x 10 Brimstone Horrors

2x 3 Screamers

1x 10 Blue Horrors

1x 10 Acolytes

with either the shackles or the wall (forgotten the name...) to limit opponent's movement.

 

Not sure on the viability of the list though. Does anyone have experience of using the changehost? What would you do?

(Ogrid is there because 1- I have one, and 2- the model is great )

If you are looking for something competitive, you might need to consider more the mortal side.

It seems Tzeentch batallions are not very optimal at the moment. In addition a couple of your units are not great in a starting list except for summoning in specific situations, like the screamers and the brimstones.

Your heroes are good but I am not sure about Magical Supremacy, now you can unbind spells at 30inches, largely enough for most of the use cases. Arcan sacrifice is a good choice to kill you own pinks and gather blue horror points early. 

If you have a gaunt summoner with familiars, he is great against hordes.

Consider adding Tzaangor enlightened for a great impact in close combat. 

With a LoC and a Blue Scrib you may wat to play as many spells as you can, so adding the Chronomantic Cogs or the Balewind Vortex can be a good idea, plus a coupl more endless spells. 

Edited November 28, 2018 by Asimov

[Magnus The Blue]

Spoiler

59 minutes ago, Johnny Eyebrows said:

Hi all - first time poster

I'm going to a tournament towards the beginning of next year, only my 2nd one. I was looking at maybe trying a Changehost, wondered what folks thoughts on the matter were?

Current idea is (2000pts)

LoC, with Staff, Mark of the Conjurer, Magical Supremacy

Ogrid Thaumaturge

Blue Scribes

Herald on foot

2x 10 Pink Horrors

2x 10 Brimstone Horrors

2x 3 Screamers

1x 10 Blue Horrors

1x 10 Acolytes

with either the shackles or the wall (forgotten the name...) to limit opponent's movement.

 

Not sure on the viability of the list though. Does anyone have experience of using the changehost? What would you do?

(Ogrid is there because 1- I have one, and 2- the model is great )

 

 

5

I've played a good few games with Changehost and had quite a lot of success (local league).   I think you need more teeth, either through more casters or Tzaangors (regular or enlightened). You have tonnes of screening units (and even more when the pinks die) but not much worth screening.

Another potential issue is lack of turn one options if you go first, only damage you would do is twosspells from the Pinks (changehost swaping them to get closer before cast).  A mortal cast with Arcane sacrifice helps (ideally Guant summoner with familiars) and/or balewind vortex. 

Edited November 28, 2018 by Magnus The Blue

[Kharneth]

Asimov, what do you mean you can unbind spells at 30" now? 

For the Vortex + Gaunt + Arcane Sacrifice combo, do people use this to get off offensive spells on turn 1? 

Has anyone had success with a turn 1 33" Infernal Flames or does the fun come later? 

Edited November 28, 2018 by Kharneth

[Waiyuren]

1 hour ago, Kharneth said:

Asimov, what do you mean you can unbind spells at 30" now? 

For the Vortex + Gaunt + Arcane Sacrifice combo, do people use this to get off offensive spells on turn 1? 

Has anyone had success with a turn 1 33" Infernal Flames or does the fun come later? 

Yeah it's still doable, and you can use the balewind setup as a free 6" move to technically give yourself 39" if you want.

[Kharneth]

1 hour ago, Waiyuren said:

Yeah it's still doable, and you can use the balewind setup as a free 6" move to technically give yourself 39" if you want.

How? It seems that the wizard gets to be set-up within 6" of the vortex after it is dispelled but only 1" away when cast. On turn 2, I could dispel vortex, move 6" forward, and then cast it again, but I don't see how I'd get a 6" move on the 1st turn. 

[Waiyuren]

8 minutes ago, Kharneth said:

How? It seems that the wizard gets to be set-up within 6" of the vortex after it is dispelled but only 1" away when cast. On turn 2, I could dispel vortex, move 6" forward, and then cast it again, but I don't see how I'd get a 6" move on the 1st turn. 

Ok, so when you cast it, you set it up within 1" of the caster. It's 5" across at its widest point, and now counts as the caster for measuring range/area of control/pile-ins etc, so if you set it up 1" in front of your caster with the widest section pointing toward your intended target, that's a straight up 6" range increase.

Then you get the 6" range buff from the model's effect, and the 9" buff from arcane sacrifice. 6+6+9+18=39. 

[Kharneth]

1 hour ago, Waiyuren said:

Ok, so when you cast it, you set it up within 1" of the caster. It's 5" across at its widest point, and now counts as the caster for measuring range/area of control/pile-ins etc, so if you set it up 1" in front of your caster with the widest section pointing toward your intended target, that's a straight up 6" range increase.

Then you get the 6" range buff from the model's effect, and the 9" buff from arcane sacrifice. 6+6+9+18=39. 

After asking I started thinking I'd at least get the extra distance from the vortex's  base but I did not realize how large that model was! That's impressive! 

I'd really love to find a way to include cogs on a MotC LoC, vortex on an Arcane Sacrifice Gaunt, and Pendulum for 3x10 Pink Horrors. But maybe that's just excessive haha. 

We are allowed to cast Arcane Bolt and Mystic Shield more than once, right? Can we cast Mystic Shield on a unit already buffed with Mystic Shield for the purpose of fate points in situations where there are no alternative options? 

Also, is it possible to use the LoC command ability more than once a turn to stack the +1 to cast spells? I read on here something about using 2-3 of it in a turn for a devastating magic phase but I had assumed the way this worked was simply +1 to cast each turn I wanted to spend a command point. 

Edited November 28, 2018 by Kharneth

[Waiyuren]

4 hours ago, Kharneth said:

We are allowed to cast Arcane Bolt and Mystic Shield more than once, right?

No sadly, all spells are once per hero phase, but due to the wording of spells and how fate points accumulate you don't need to target anything to "successfully cast a spell", all that matters is that it isn't unbound.

4 hours ago, Kharneth said:

Also, is it possible to use the LoC command ability more than once a turn to stack the +1 to cast spells?

Yip, it stacks. 😁

Edited November 29, 2018 by Waiyuren
Grammar

[Kharneth]

26 minutes ago, Waiyuren said:

No sadly, all spells are once per hero phase but due to the wording of spells and how fate points accumulate, you don't need to target anything to "successfully cast a spell", all that matters is that it isn't unbound.

Yip, it stacks. 😁

Okay, well that still solves my problem.

Of all turns, surely the first turn is the safest to not use the command ability? I'm not sure why I'd want to stack them. Good to know that I have the option. 

[TactfulSaturn]

11 hours ago, Waiyuren said:

No sadly, all spells are once per hero phase, but due to the wording of spells and how fate points accumulate you don't need to target anything to "successfully cast a spell", all that matters is that it isn't unbound.

Yip, it stacks. 😁

 Hi guys, new to the forum but have been watching for a while to help build my tzeentch list! 

Saw this and found it interesting,  I sometimes find myself running out of spell choices, thinking I am out of range in turn 1. Is this normal practice that people still cast out of range to get the fate points? Do opponents ever kick off about it?

[mmimzie]

7 hours ago, TactfulSaturn said:

 Hi guys, new to the forum but have been watching for a while to help build my tzeentch list! 

Saw this and found it interesting,  I sometimes find myself running out of spell choices, thinking I am out of range in turn 1. Is this normal practice that people still cast out of range to get the fate points? Do opponents ever kick off about it?

I mean it's how the game works?? *shrug*  Your opponent hates it than you could be a friend and not do it to save the arguement, but i've found no one really seems to care. honestly most of your real summoning comes from killing your own horror the fate points are small potatoes in comparison. 

 

 

19 hours ago, Kharneth said:

Okay, well that still solves my problem.

Of all turns, surely the first turn is the safest to not use the command ability? I'm not sure why I'd want to stack them. Good to know that I have the option. 

It really depends i don't tend to save up as even if i'm out of range for alot of my spells the endless pells iwant to start setting up are important enough to get that +1 on on. 

 

On 11/28/2018 at 4:50 AM, Asimov said:

It seems Tzeentch batallions are not very optimal

Multitudinous horde is actualy quite alright  It almost pays for itself on the first turn giving you an average of 220pts on your first of splits,  The main problem with our battalions if most of them leave your army seriously lacking in a key area. For instance will take all the killiness out of your list while letting you go truely nutss on pumping out horrors. The main problem being that it's hard to summoning if your opponent pushes out into most of the map.