AoS 2 - Grand Host of Nagash Discussion

[Honk]

Personally and non-competitive I love fielding 60 zombies with necromancer and a corpse cart... solid wall of undead meat and if they get the first charge they can be pretty devastating (2+\3+\-\1) .

bloodknights and morghast went down in points, but without the summonable keyword I think our hordes are still stronger, especially the bedsheets. Still use them, because „rule of cool“

Arkhan sadly went up a bit (still pretty solid as big caster instead of Nagash), vampirelord on dragon stayed the distraction carnifex he was.

the fine details are yours to explore and experience, too many good/cool/fun options in our book!!!

We are One of if not the most diverse faction!!!

if your playing beer&pretzels your set from Soulblight Knightly charge that will put tears into old Bretonnia Players, to 180 zombies whipped into a frenzy by vamps and necros to the wailing and screaming abominations if terror, legions of blood bravery bombs with mortis engines, terrorgheist and banshees...

Just too much fun!!! 

PRAISE NAGASH!!!!!!!!

(the sanity of the writer is anti-proportional to the amount of exclamation marks) 

[GeneralZero]

1 hour ago, Honk said:

We are One of if not the most diverse faction!!!

This is true but I'd leave the title to one of my other faction which has the "shooting" option (and beeing good at it): the skaven.

[Sneedlewoods]

@SceptionGood post, I'm with you ... we might have a hard time with Meetings Engagements due to the victory Points gained by caused wounds as you said. :-S
I like your list, but I'm not sure wether Corpse Cart and Zombies are worth it or if you should go for 10 Dire Wolves.

This is the list I'm going to try:

Spoiler

Grand Host of Nagash:

Spearhead:
- 1x Vampire Lord (Flying Horror) - Spell: Vile Transference (140 Pts.)
- 2x Morghast Harbringer (200 Pts.)
Quite fast, VL can provide a +6 after save, heal and another +1 attack for the Morghasts, so they would be +2 attacks due to GHoN.

Main Body:
- 1x Necromancer - Spell: Overwhelming Dread (130 Pts.)
- 10x Dire Wolves (140 Pts.)
Necromancer to debuff enemies or buff the squat of Black Knights, Dire Wolves to Screen and to pass wounds to the Necromancer

Rearguard:
- 1x Wight King (on Steed) - General: Lord of Nagashizzar - Artefact: Ossific Diadem (120 Pts.)
- 10x Black Knights (240 Pts.
Wight King to buff the squat of Black Knights with +1 Attack and another 6+ after save

Endless Spells:
- 1x Malevolent Maelstrom (10 Pts.)
I'm not that sure about this one here, but it has a total reach of 26" and might help unbinding since there are only two unbinds in this list.

Total Pts.: 980

What do you guys think?

[Vitch_EGS]

I like the idea of your spearhead. It's good and threatening and should out most others on the backdoor from the get go. I might follow it up then with:

Main body:  Necro and 20 GW Grave Guard 

Rearguard: Tomb Banshee and 2x10 Chainrasp hordes.

Im thinking of bringing the Graveguard in at least 1st or 2nd wave due to their speed may even be better as the first wave to tie up sooner and give the Morghast more options.

And then the ghosts in the rear have that bit of extra speed to big down objectives and reinforce where needs it plus a bit of screening at depleted units.

[Evil Bob]

On 6/24/2019 at 12:10 PM, Sception said:

What are everyone's thoughts on meeting engagement lists for Grand Host?

Snip

On the other hand...

We have seen small points drops for Morghasts and Grave Guard - and an increase to minimum unit size for the latter, which is a good thing in meeting engagements - more elite units not dependent on numbers for their offence.  These decreases probably aren't enough to make these units /good/ in my opinion, but they are a bit better, and they're units that the Grand Host in particular gets extra benefits with.  We also have gravesite deployment.  It doesn't get units on the table early, but it can save your later units a turn of running up the field to try to get into position.

Snip

Main Body - as hard hitting as we can get out of a block of 20 battleline , taking advantage of bl GG in grand host
Wight King with Baleful Tomb Blade (120)
- General: Lord of Nagashizzar
- Artefact: Ossific Diadem 
20 x Grave Guard (280)
- Great Wight Blades

Been having a similar thoughts after seeing preview rules for Meeting Engagements.  It really feels like the very rules reverse the desirability of Skeletons verses Grave Guard.  AoS battles already had a different dynamic at 1,000 points.  Although at any level of Match Play the Grave Guard were combat ineffective when I brought them.

Battletomb:LoN armies were always odd since it is more about list building than other factions.  I am cautiously optimistic that doubling down on high-end deathrattle could work.  The rules remove much of the auto-wipe possibilities (for example cheaper piles of attack dice on sizable single units).  A shared concern was with such a heavy investment that a strategic or tactile slip-up will snow ball everything.  Wrong place at the wrong time is almost half the army.  Time to concede and congratulate your opponent.  Really want to see the battle plans to see if the Wights have a shot.  Or see if gravesite tactical shenanigans can cover the slack.

-

I think Morghasts are going to be a risky proposition.  In units of two their attacks are really swingy (with Pirates Halberds) at twenty percent of the points.  I’ve had wild rolls good or bad even in units of four.  

The gambler in me is kind of curious what would happen using over half of the army points on four Morghast Harbingers and a Vampire Lord.  The hard hitting mobility is very appealing.  Even with the loss of attack dice to points.  Although with the general maxed sized units being upwards of twenty models wiping one enemy unit on the charge is doable.  So basically a lot of prioritizing charges while trying to avoid quagmires.

[Charlo]

Guys I don't think this dude is big enough to warrant 850pts...?

[Charlo]

Guys I don't think this dude is big enough to warrant 850pts...?

[jake3991]

Looking for some feed back on a list idea given the new points! The idea here is to use the grims as they are, a very tough to kill unit combined with Arkhan casting soul cage as the included night haunt wizard will be nearby at all times.  Prince Vhordrai is always great as well, however I could turn him into a standard vampire lord on zombie dragon and pick up the extra command point.  Any thoughts are appreciated especially if you have experience with something similar! 

 

Allegiance: Death

Warscroll Builder on www.warhammer-community.com

LEADERS

The Briar Queen (150)
Prince Vhordrai (480)
Arkhan the Black Mortarch of Sacrament (340)

UNITS
30 x Grimghast Reapers (420)
30 x Grimghast Reapers (420)
10 x Zombies (60)
10 x Zombies (60)
10 x Zombies (60)

[Sception]

On 6/24/2019 at 7:14 PM, Xenoszenn said:

Hi I was looking at starting a legions of nagash army and would like to field  nagash. But I don’t know the meta or what is even good in age of sigmar so any help would be amazing. Looking for 2k points. Thanks

Nagash is a touch problematic.  In a lot of casual games he feels unbalancing in all but the largest games.  At 2k points, a lot of games are going to come down to 'can my opponent deal with nagash?'  - if no you win if yes you lose.  These days there are more armies out there that can deal with nagash than there were, so he might not be as 'unfair' as he once was but he'll still lead to a lot of lopsided games.  In general, I'd recommend checking with opponents in advance to make sure they're cool with it before running Nagash in casual games.

In more competitive spheres people found ways to try to play around Nagash, and had to expect to come up against him regardless, with plans to try to play around him if they couldn't beat him directly, so while his presence still led to lopsided games - as any 800 point unit would in a 2000 point game - but they were still actual games.

If you are looking at a competitive sphere, nagash was a staple for a while, but the nagash meta is in a bit of turmoil at the moment.  Recent books have added a ton of shooting power to the game, which had already successfully knocked nagash lists down several pegs, but then the general's handbook 2019 points changes came through, and well, let's take a look at a relatively typical Nagash list before GHB19:

Nagash
Necromancer
Guardian of Souls with Mortality Glass
3x5 Dire Wolves
20 Grimghast Reapers
30 Grimghast Reapers
Umbral Spellportal
Soulsnare Shackles

In 2k games, that list would have 50 points left over for an extra command point under GHB18 points.  But in GHB19?  Nagash is up 50 points.  Necromancers up 20.  Dire wolves up 10 points per 5.  Grimghast Reapers up 20 points per 10.  Spellportal is up 10 points (despite Nagash lists being basically the only lists in the game to use it), and Soulsnare Shacles are up 20.  All told, that list went up 230 points, which is simply brutal.

Nearly all of the typical Nagash list's staple units have gone up in price considerably, and it's not unreasonable to think that they went up *specifically* because they were part of the typical Nagash list.   Again, post errata you basically never saw spellportal /except/ as part of a nagash list.

Anyway, the point is that Nagash lists were hit hard, both by the re-introduction of serious ranged power to the game and by points value adjustments that hit basically all of the lists key units from Nagash on down.  It's too soon to say whether these lists will be able to adjust to the new meta, or whether a largely different Nagash list will arise in their place, or whether Nagash is just going to mostly sit out this season's tournament scene.

[Sception]

18 hours ago, Evil Bob said:

Been having a similar thoughts after seeing preview rules for Meeting Engagements.  It really feels like the very rules reverse the desirability of Skeletons verses Grave Guard.

My second thought on a meeting engagement is to max out grave guard specifically:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Grand Host of Nagash
Mortal Realm: Shyish

Spearhead
Wight King with Baleful Tomb Blade (120)
- Mount: Steed
5 x Dire Wolves (70)

Main Body
Necromancer (130)
- General
- Trait: Lord of Nagashizzar 
- Artefact: Ossific Diadem
- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread
20 x Grave Guard (280)
- Great Wight Blades
20 x Grave Guard (280)
- Great Wight Blades

Rearguard
5 x Dire Wolves (70)

Total: 1000 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 1
Wounds: 70

This version takes the max 2x20 graveguard, taking advantage of the Grand Host allegiance rules to put them in the main body, which is never the last subforce to arrive, along with a necromancer general.  Dire wolves are used to meet unit requirements in spearhead & rearguard.  The spearhead wolves are accompanied by a mounted wight king to allow for gravesite deployment of one of the grave guard units in missions where the spearhead arrives before the main body, which happens slightly more than half the time.

Ideally, I'd put a fast hero in each subfaction to maximize gravesite deployment options, and take the chronomantic cogs to maximize charge success out of those gravesites, but the price of 40 graveguard makes those options difficult to fit in.

The up side of this list is a reasonable amount of damage output with rend.  Downside is relias a lot on recursion for staying power, which, again, seems likely to hemorrhage victory points on most-wounds-inflicted.  You also have to deal with the fact that building a list on elite infantry power isn't exactly playing to our faction's strengths.  Grave Guard may be a bit more efficient than they were two weeks ago, but they still may not perform well when pitted against the more-elite elite infantry in many order, chaos, and destruction subfactions. 

......

On the matter of battleplans and the order of arrival for subforces:

Center Ground: spearhead, main, rearguard
Death Pass: spearhead, main, rearguard
Changing Priorities: spearhead, main, rearguard

Borderline: main, spearhead, rearguard
Raid: main, main, rearguard, spearhead

Rearguard Action (player 1): rearguard, main, spearhead
Rearguard Action (player 2): Spearhead, main, rearguard

 

[Sception]

Grand Host meeting engagement, take 3:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Grand Host of Nagash
Mortal Realm: Shyish

Spearhead
2 x Morghast Harbingers (200)
- Spirit Halberds

Main Body
Arkhan the Black Mortarch of Sacrament (340)
- General
- Lore of the Dead: Fading Vigour (Deathmages)
10 x Zombies (60)
2 x Morghast Archai (200)
- Spirit Halberds

Rearguard
2 x Morghast Harbingers (200)
- Spirit Halberds

Total: 1000 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Wounds: 57

This time looking to to go heavy on morghasts to see how far their new price can be pushed.  Of course, Nagash is too expensive to take in a meeting engagement at all, so morghasts not being battleline means at least one unit of something else.  Since Nagash is off the table, and artillery restricted to the second half of the game only, I threw in arkhan as a stand in, leaving just enough points for a minimum squad of zombies.  This isn't the max number of morghasts possible in a meeting engagement - two more could be fit in if arkhan was dropped for a cheaper general, but while a unit of morghasts might be usable, I don't personally view morghast spam as viable, at least not in this format anyway, so might as well be silly about it.

In terms of performance, though, imo morghast spam doesn't leave enough units or models to really play the objective game, and while their offense isn't completely terrible for the points, at least not with the grand host buff, their defense leaves a lot to be desired and they don't even have the double edged sword of recursion to fall back on the way grave guard do.

Still, it would be a pretty cool looking army on the table

[Malakithe]

Tossing around some ideas...not sure where im going but mostly just playing with the new points

Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (440)
- General
Vampire Lord (140)
Necromancer (130)
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (140)
20 x Chainrasp Horde (160)
30 x Grave Guard (360)
30 x Grave Guard (360)
2 x Morghast Harbingers (200)
Total: 1930 / 2000

 

[Sception]

Is the guardian of souls really worth it if your only summonable nighthaunt unit is 20 rasps?

[Malakithe]

57 minutes ago, Sception said:

Is the guardian of souls really worth it if your only summonable nighthaunt unit is 20 rasps?

i removed it and revised a bit. Still toying around. Could drop a unit of Wolves for a Balewind so a Necro can debuff...or something. EDIT: dropping a unit of Wolves I picked up a Balewind and Shackles.

Allegiance: Grand Host of Nagash
Mortal Realm: Shyish

Leaders
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (440)
- General
- Vampiric Sword & Shield & Chalice
- Trait: Aura of Ages 
- Artefact: Ethereal Amulet 
Vampire Lord (140)
Necromancer (130)
Necromancer (130)
5 x Dire Wolves (70)
5 x Dire Wolves (70)
5 x Dire Wolves (70)
30 x Grave Guard (360)
30 x Grave Guard (360)
2 x Morghast Harbingers (200)
Suffocating Gravetide (20)
Total: 1990 / 2000

 

Edited June 28, 2019 by Malakithe

[Honk]

On 6/27/2019 at 12:54 PM, Sception said:

Grand Host meeting engagement, take 3:

I was thrilled, but I see only 1 battleline...

I will try out Meeting Engagement rules on Tuesday,

spearhead: wolves

main: nagash

rear: wolves

🥳👍 that’s going to be silly 😜 

real Test is with Legion of blood bravery bombs (vamp, necro, banshee, morghast, blackknights, wolves, mortis engine)

Edited June 28, 2019 by Honk

[Sception]

The main body specifically requires at least one battle line.  Between the various requirements and his staggering points cost, Nagash is sadly unfieldable in meeting engagement games.

 

As for the comment of only one battleline, i didn't think the normal pitched battle 1k restrictions applied, just those for the meeting engagement subdivisions, where the only battleline requirement is at least one duch unit in your main body.

Edited June 28, 2019 by Sception

[Honk]

3 hours ago, Sception said:

The main body specifically requires at least one battle line.  Between the various requirements and his staggering points cost, Nagash is sadly unfieldable in meeting engagement games.

I am unimpressed... f! that rearguard!!! it’s wolves, Nagash with wolves and after that it’s victory or bust 🥳👍

 

3 hours ago, Sception said:

i didn't think the normal pitched battle 1k restrictions applied,

You sir seem to speak the truth. Only battleline requirement seems to be the single one I ignored 🤣 

[Evil Bob]

15 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (140)
20 x Chainrasp Horde (160)

I’m rather fond of this combo with Legion of the Sacrament.  Something to do with how easy it is to fail a casting value 6.  Twenty Chainwrasps can be surprisingly tanky whereas twenty skeletons seem to fold to a stiff breeze at 2k.  The low cost on this team-up makes it so tempting in other legions.

Edited June 29, 2019 by Evil Bob

[Malakithe]

2 hours ago, Evil Bob said:

I’m rather fond of this combo with Legion of the Sacrament.  Something to do with how easy it is to fail a casting value 6.  Twenty Chainwrasps can be surprisingly tanky whereas twenty skeletons seem to fold to a stiff breeze at 2k.  The low cost on this team-up makes it so tempting in other legions.

Hmm...yeah ive been thinking about a Sacrament version as well. Better for casters and beefing up the Horde to make then even harder to remove

[ColsBols]

With the addition of the 6 mortal wounds to LON terrorgheist do you think it’ll be worth it to take them now?

[Honk]

3 hours ago, ColsBols said:

do you think it’ll be worth it to take them now?

With the vamp ca... totally funny!!!

but of course has to fit into your list and stuff (had great fun with double gheists in a LoNight ambush list)

[Death1942]

No FAQ to remove Reapers from the Legion of Nagash feels like a mistake.  Surely the meta lists are just going to take 20 instead of 30 and do basically the same trick as before?  Nothing in the book really jumps out as equal to that unit for the same slot and points cost.

[Charlo]

1 hour ago, Death1942 said:

No FAQ to remove Reapers from the Legion of Nagash feels like a mistake.  Surely the meta lists are just going to take 20 instead of 30 and do basically the same trick as before?  Nothing in the book really jumps out as equal to that unit for the same slot and points cost.

Not at all. There would be massive community backlash as so many players had bought the models for their armies already.

[Malakithe]

So Grims and Tgheists now? Not sure GHoN is best for TGheists

[ACBelMutie]

On 7/9/2019 at 1:22 AM, Death1942 said:

No FAQ to remove Reapers from the Legion of Nagash feels like a mistake.  Surely the meta lists are just going to take 20 instead of 30 and do basically the same trick as before?  Nothing in the book really jumps out as equal to that unit for the same slot and points cost.

I don't think people will take 20 instead of 30, because of the points reduction. 

Greetings