AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Rock Lobster]

10 minutes ago, broche said:

One thing i'm wondering is: Bloodtooth seem so popular, but nobody seem to like Ironsunz. I never played one or the other, but Ironsunz seem more appealing to me.

Bloodtooth: +1 run (meh), +1 charge (this I like, but second +1 is really not as good as first +1), +2 bravery (ok, but kinda useless as you can take golden tooth and/or Skewer)

Ironsunz: Bigger Maw Krusha (never bad), and 66% of an potential game breaking ability. 

Its really preference, all the things you listed as 'meh' are HUGE to me. The plus 1 to charge is a big bonus, means you can guarantee a successful charge on 4" and never be screwed by a double 1, makes every charge easier. The plus 2 bravery is the biggest bonus, means if you lose 2 brutes you dont need to test and you are not required to spend those important artifacts on trying to hold together with bravery.

 

The ironsunz on the other hand, the boss bonus is nice, but will be barely noticeable over a game with multiple waaghs etc. The -1 hit first turn could have been good against some armies with heavy shooting builds potentially, but the fact that it isn't a sure bet on a 3+ is abysmal considering how good the bloodtoof abilities are.

Consider both battalions cost 120 points. Command point is worth 50 so deduct that for 70 points, both give you an artifact and single drop, lets call that 50 points also. Both are great value for 20 points with those taken out. However bloodtoofs gives you +2 bravery and +1 to charge for 20 points for your whole army, BARGAIN! For the ironsunz, there is a 1/3 chance that all you get is an extra attack on one of your lords weapons and an extra wound and nothing else - you might pay 20 points for that, but is probably costed appropriately as opposed to a bargain. Even if the -1 to hit comes into play, you might face someone who doesn't shoot at you turn 1, who magics you instead, or sits back until you are closer, either way the -1 hit is wasted.

[ShaneHobbes]

My local gaming meet won't let me use a baleful realmgate in the tournaments for the Bloodtoof battalion.  Something about not allowing scenery because of Chaos Dreadholds or something that were exploiting.  They do allow the Nurgle/Sylvaneth trees and Deepkin boat as they're a core part of the army.  I'm a little off put by this. Especially given the state of Ironjawz and Destruction armies in general.

Edited September 13, 2018 by ShaneHobbes

[Rock Lobster]

3 minutes ago, ShaneHobbes said:

My local gaming meet won't let me use a baleful realmgate in the tournaments for the Bloodtoof battalion.  Something about not allowing scenery because of Chaos Dreadholds or something that were exploiting.  They do allow the Nurgle/Sylvaneth trees and Deepkin boat as they're a core part of the army.  I'm a little off put by this. Especially given the state of Ironjawz and Destruction armies in general.

Should be pretty easy to address with them, the new rules mean the single realmgate does nothing, it is just a block of terrain. So agree with the tournament organizer to use the battalion without it since it has zero game impact.

[broche]

@Rock Lobster interesting point, I guess first item i take so far always been the golden tooth, and i've not loose one model to battleshock so far (spend a CP maybe once or twice on some ardboyz). I always never take the brooch (tried once, wasn't finding it usefull)

I understand that poeple don't like Ironsunz cause of the randomness of bonus, but it just seem that potentially negating (or delaying) an alphastrike / deep strike list in round 1 mean that a game i would have no chance of winning now become possible.

[Malakree]

57 minutes ago, broche said:

One thing i'm wondering is: Bloodtooth seem so popular, but nobody seem to like Ironsunz. I never played one or the other, but Ironsunz seem more appealing to me.

Bloodtooth: +1 run (meh), +1 charge (this I like, but second +1 is really not as good as first +1), +2 bravery (ok, but kinda useless as you can take golden tooth and/or Skewer)

Ironsunz: Bigger Maw Krusha (never bad), and 66% of an potential game breaking ability. 

It's personal preference I think. 

I honestly love the +2 bravery more than I can say, while the +1 charge really plays into what we already have going for us.
If I had to make one big distinction it's the random nature of Ironsunz which puts me off. It should just be a -1 to hit in the first turn with no random.

[Rock Lobster]

1 minute ago, broche said:

@Rock Lobster interesting point, I guess first item i take so far always been the golden tooth, and i've not loose one model to battleshock so far (spend a CP maybe once or twice on some ardboyz). I always never take the brooch (tried once, wasn't finding it usefull)

I understand that poeple don't like Ironsunz cause of the randomness of bonus, but it just seem that potentially negating (or delaying) an alphastrike / deep strike list in round 1 mean that a game i would have no chance of winning now become possible.

It is true that it could be a nasty shock for your opponent. The problem is that the result is known after deployment and before the turn starts. As such if the result comes out a 1-2, the opponent will alpha strike. If it comes out 3-6, they may choose to either hang back 1 turn and then strike next turn without penalty. The problem with it not being a sure thing is it stops you being able to change your deployment with the -1 in hand, you dont know if it is going to happen either. It would be cool if it was for certain (and it should be, people would still mostly choose bloodtoofs) and then you can change your deployment to take advantage of it, push right up to the front line and not screen the cabbage knowing the -1 will really help, giving you a much more aggressive posture and a chance to alpha strike them with a -1 for protection on your turn also. I otherwise like it, but the 3+ roll is super unnecessary and eliminates the cool stuff I would do with it.

[Andrew G]

I recently dropped both battalions from my lists and win % has skyrocketed since.  My original frustrated rationale was something along the lines of, " If I'm going to be engaging turn 2 anway, why am I spending 300 points for mostly speed increases I don't need."  I do miss the extra CP, bravery, artifacts sometimes, but effectively having two extra units on the board has just proved more useful for me in most matchups. 

I've also been messing around with gorefist, and I actually think it's extremely viable even if your opponent screens well first turn.  You don't actually need to fully commit to alpha-striking, you can spend a turn or two clearing chaff and grabbing objectives before you go for the killing blow on the important pieces. It just adds the ability to end a lot of games turn 1 if they don't screen almost perfectly , and sometimes the opponents armies just don't have the tools to deal with it even if they're fully aware it's coming.  Admittingly, it is a little beefier than other gorefist lists I see shared (137 wounds) which might be influencing my perception that it doesn't necessarily collapse if you don't cripple the opponent's army turn 1. 

Still slightly favoring no battalions, mostly because it's more fun to play, but I also think it suffers less in the event of a bad match-ups but I need to play a little more with gorefist to definitely determine that. 

List for those interested.

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Trait: Prophet of the Waaagh! 
- Artefact: Mirrored Cuirass 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
Gorefist (190)

Total: 1850 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 137

---------

If we used the realm spells regularly 1 or 2 of those warchanters would be swapped for fungoids.  

 

[broche]

2 hours ago, Andrew G said:

I recently dropped both battalions from my lists and win % has skyrocketed since.  My original frustrated rationale was something along the lines of, " If I'm going to be engaging turn 2 anway, why am I spending 300 points for mostly speed increases I don't need."  I do miss the extra CP, bravery, artifacts sometimes, but effectively having two extra units on the board has just proved more useful for me in most matchups. 

Exactly my point! To engage something in round one, you need:

1. A gorefist

2. Roll a 6+ (or 4+) with mighty destroyer and use on Maw Krusha or Gruntas.

Otherwise, it will go to round 2 anyway.  An extra units covering an objective however is significant.

[BenWithJam]

Playing without Bloodtoofs severely increases the number of deployments made. In practice, does this have an effect on games? As we seem to already be fighting an uphill battle, does having the choice to go first/second not play in our favour? 

[Malakree]

3 hours ago, BenWithJam said:

Playing without Bloodtoofs severely increases the number of deployments made. In practice, does this have an effect on games? As we seem to already be fighting an uphill battle, does having the choice to go first/second not play in our favour? 

Yes it's a big advantage. Against a lot of lists you can get that anyway by grabbing just 1 battalion.

To me the problem is that all our stuff is overdosed...

[PlasticCraic]

8 hours ago, broche said:

One thing i'm wondering is: Bloodtooth seem so popular, but nobody seem to like Ironsunz. I never played one or the other, but Ironsunz seem more appealing to me.

Bloodtooth: +1 run (meh), +1 charge (this I like, but second +1 is really not as good as first +1), +2 bravery (ok, but kinda useless as you can take golden tooth and/or Skewer)

Ironsunz: Bigger Maw Krusha (never bad), and 66% of an potential game breaking ability. 

I know that @domus did really well with his Ironsunz towards the end of AOS 1.0, I wonder if he could add some perspective on how it worked for him?

[Thenord]

How do you guys prefer to run 10 brutes? One 10 man unit with jagged gore hacka or two units of 5 with two choppas.

Seems to med you get the most out og FOV and foot boss with a 10 man unit?

[Malakree]

9 minutes ago, Thenord said:

How do you guys prefer to run 10 brutes? One 10 man unit with jagged gore hacka or two units of 5 with two choppas.

Seems to med you get the most out og FOV and foot boss with a 10 man unit?

Actually we are using them in 5s and stacking waaaghs to abuse the brute boss klaw+Smasha.

That said 10+fov is totally reasonable if you aren't doing mass waaagh abuse.

[Thenord]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

Actually we are using them in 5s and stacking waaaghs to abuse the brute boss klaw+Smasha.

That said 10+fov is totally reasonable if you aren't doing mass waaagh abuse.

That makes sence.. I just started the army and ordered models for a 1000 point army to start with. So would like to hear what people seem to prefer ☺️

[Chris Tomlin]

Afternoon all,

I've enjoyed reading all your thoughts (and prayers!) around Ironjawz in the new edition. I think a lot of what I read hear sounds good in theory, but unfortunately I do not believe would play out that favourably in practice. Personally I believe the data that recently came out, whilst small in terms of numbers, did place Ironjawz correctly.

Anyway, I'm posting today just to see if any of you guys are taking Ironjawz to the Facehammer GT next weekend? Will be interesting to see how they do at another large event. For the first time ever, I will not be taking my Ironjawz to FHGT (it is only the 3rd year, but this sounds more dramatic!) and whilst I wouldn't wish to place words in his mouth, I don't believe @Sangfroid is either.

Hopefully see some of you there, waving the Ironjawz banner strongly though!

[Malakree]

35 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

Afternoon all,

I've enjoyed reading all your thoughts (and prayers!) around Ironjawz in the new edition. I think a lot of what I read hear sounds good in theory, but unfortunately I do not believe would play out that favourably in practice. Personally I believe the data that recently came out, whilst small in terms of numbers, did place Ironjawz correctly.

Anyway, I'm posting today just to see if any of you guys are taking Ironjawz to the Facehammer GT next weekend? Will be interesting to see how they do at another large event. For the first time ever, I will not be taking my Ironjawz to FHGT (it is only the 3rd year, but this sounds more dramatic!) and whilst I wouldn't wish to place words in his mouth, I don't believe @Sangfroid is either.

Hopefully see some of you there, waving the Ironjawz banner strongly though!

I had quickly been coming to this same position. It feels like we would be better off switching to GA:destro with grots. This just feels like it would be a stronger version of a pure IJ list.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Destruction
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Gitmob Grot Shaman (80)
Gitmob Grot Shaman (80)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)
- General
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)

Battleline
60 x Gitmob Grots (270)
- Bows & Slashas
20 x Moonclan Grots (130)
- Pokin Spears & Moon Shields
20 x Moonclan Grots (130)
- Pokin Spears & Moon Shields

Units
3 x Grot Fanatics (100)
3 x Grot Fanatics (100)
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)

War Machines
Grot Spear Chukka (120)
Grot Spear Chukka (120)
Grot Spear Chukka (120)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 188

That's if you would even take the brutes which tbh I might not

Spoiler

Allegiance: Destruction
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)
- General
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Gitmob Grot Shaman (80)

Battleline
60 x Gitmob Grots (270)
- Bows & Slashas
20 x Moonclan Grots (130)
- Pokin Spears & Moon Shields
20 x Moonclan Grots (130)
- Pokin Spears & Moon Shields

Units
3 x Grot Fanatics (100)
3 x Grot Fanatics (100)
30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)

War Machines
Grot Spear Chukka (120)
Grot Spear Chukka (120)
Grot Spear Chukka (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 214

Just put even more beef on the board and give a better target for the double WC buff if the Footboss isn't deleting something that turn.

Worst part is I'm actually only short 1 spear chukka from this....

[broche]

love those goblin list, look very good! Not sure what i prefer between the brutes and ardboys tough. Also I would like to sqeeze a command point or 2

[Backbreaker]

Well, outside of tournaments, I'm doing fine with Ironjawz. It's true I play mostly 1000 points games but with my Ironfist list and focusing on objectives, I win most of  battles. It's always close and I decided to forget to go for kill points, but it's working.

I really like the idea of a Gorefist which doesn't charge T1. 140 points is a "cheap", fast and durable way to cover the field (preventing deepstrike) and controlling objectives.

[broche]

i think the 40% win rate from Ironjawz is a bit low. I would expect them to be at least at 50%, but i think since the model are appealing and they are simple to play (but hard to master) a lot of average player choose them. 

[broche]

16 hours ago, Malakree said:

Yes it's a big advantage. Against a lot of lists you can get that anyway by grabbing just 1 battalion.

To me the problem is that all our stuff is overdosed...

I would say against most list. What T1 list are one drop right now? LoN, DoK, Idoneth, Tzeech don't have really good one drop army i think. Most top list seem to be around 5-7 drop

[Thenord]

What's peoples thoughts on including some shooting to our army, something like this: 

Megaboss on krusha 

Wierdnob

Chanter

Foot boss

20 boys 

6 gruntas 

5 brutes 

2 spear chukkas 

Ironfist 

Swords 

2000 on the nose ☺️

[BenWithJam]

2 hours ago, Thenord said:

What's peoples thoughts on including some shooting to our army

I was also thinking about this. However, I'd consider dropping the swords, swapping the weirdnob to a fungoid and then upgrading some units to brutes (I think you can get to 3x5 Brutes, 1x3 Gruntas and 1x10 Ardboys) 

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Thenord said:

What's peoples thoughts on including some shooting to our army, something like this: 

Megaboss on krusha 

Wierdnob

Chanter

Foot boss

20 boys 

6 gruntas 

5 brutes 

2 spear chukkas 

Ironfist 

Swords 

2000 on the nose ☺️

I'd drop the weirdnob and Swords. You're sorting the problem he solves with the spear chukkas I think, split the Ardboy units, add a warchanter and 5 cave squigs.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- Artefact: Miasmatic Blade 
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)

Battleline
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

Units
5 x Cave Squigs (60)
- Allies

War Machines
Grot Spear Chukka (120)
- Allies
Grot Spear Chukka (120)
- Allies

Battalions
Ironfist (180)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 300 / 400
Wounds: 142

There's also the more extreme choice of taking 3 spear chukkas.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- Artefact: Miasmatic Blade 
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)

Battleline
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)

War Machines
Grot Spear Chukka (120)
- Allies
Grot Spear Chukka (120)
- Allies
Grot Spear Chukka (120)
- Allies

Battalions
Ironfist (180)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 360 / 400
Wounds: 134

Honestly though I'm thinking we need to be abusing the SoJ, it's the one ridiculous combo we have for removing those horrific monsters we normally can't deal with. Either on a footboss or on the Cabbage.

[Gwendar]

Hmm, lots of debate about not running ironfist or ironfist+bloodtoofs. I may have to try a few games without them and bring along a bit more units, but I really enjoy that movement increase for getting to objectives quickly and taking cover from shooting since the allegiance is unreliable. Not to mention the 1 drop, extra CP and artefacts.

I swore off of using Ardboys, but I have recently begun changing my mind. If only taking 20, are they best used as 1x20 or 2x10 for coverage and using as many shields as possible+dual choppas? The rest of the list is pretty standard, 2x5 brutes and 1 unit of gruntas. 20 wounds per 10 seem like more than enough to hold something up for the small brute units to smash into, but I haven't been playing around with IJ as of late so I'm a little rusty on their tactics...hence why I bring both battalions and suicide bomb the cabbage into combat before anything else is even close.

Are cogs still pretty much an auto-include regardless of playing with Ironfist or not?

[Durnaxe]

6 hours ago, Malakree said:

Honestly though I'm thinking we need to be abusing the SoJ, it's the one ridiculous combo we have for removing those horrific monsters we normally can't deal with. Either on a footboss or on the Cabbage.

I think this combo needs explained to me. I'm guessing just multiple WAAGHs and (mulitple?) FoV to buff up our SoJ wielder?