AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[EMMachine]

13 hours ago, broche said:

2. The litigious point come from the Mighty destroyer command ability, wich clearly state at the begining: "Ironjawz army can use the Mighty Destroyer command ability". So by default, it's safer to argue that a Big waaagh army is NOT an Ironjawz army, thus you can't use brutish cunning / ironfist ability in those case (you could still take Ironfist to reduce drop, extra warbeat and extra artefact), until they FAQ that you can. Obviously, you can do what you want in your play group   

Actually the Ability Mighty Destroyer itself doesn't say anywhere that it is used in an Ironjawz army. It only refers that it is used on an IRONJAWZ Unit and that only the unit has to be in range of an IRONJAWZ HERO with the Ability.

You refering to "Command Abilities" in the Ironjawz Allegiance Abilities, that an Ironjawz Army gets the Command Abilities "Mighty Destroyer" and "Ironjazw Waaagh!" . This allows the rule to all heroes in the Ironjawz Army but doesn't restricted the use of it in "Brutish Cunning" of the Command Traits and "Up and At'em" Ability of the Ironfist Battalion

At least I don't see a point that says:

Quote

Mighty Destroyer

You can use this command ability in your hero phase if you have an Ironjawz army. ...

Only in such a case it wouldn't work. After the blue marked part isn't in the ability itself the two abilities can use it.

 

Edited October 10, 2019 by EMMachine

[Malakree]

 

35 minutes ago, Primes said:

 

@Boggler Do you play without Battleline in your Playgroup? If I am not mistaken, even at 2k he wouldn´t even be able to fit in 3 Units of Libs...Might explain why you struggle. This should also make you comfortably out-drop him.

As a Stormcast Player, whenever playing Anvilstrike or a variation my biggest fear is  a Horde of MSU Units with decent Output charging at the same time from different angles. I believe Ironjawz can play this way perfectly with a Mawcrusha and some units of Gruntas. Also he does lack any magic defense, which you could exploit by teleporting 10-20 Ardboys in his backline.

I am also not sure how he is able to kill one, let alone two Mawcrushas with hist 9 Longstrikes without using Anvils for double shooting or Azyros for rerolls.

 

Yeah I just checked as I assumed he was anvils. This would be a legal version of that list.

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals

Leaders
Lord-Aquilor (180)
- General
Knight-Azyros (100)

Battleline
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield

Units
6 x Vanguard-Palladors (360)
- Boltstorm Pistols and Shock Handaxes
3 x Aetherwings (50)
3 x Aetherwings (50)
3 x Aetherwings (50)
9 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (510)
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (140)
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (140)

Battalions
Vanguard Justicar Conclave (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 120

Gotta be honest though...I would not be scared of that list at all. He's 7 drops so I get prio. Can pounce on whatever he deploys on the board while screening for my MK. He's not killing 2 in one round and with ironsunz if he gets close enough I can setup a charge in his turn to get round the aetherwings...

Edited October 10, 2019 by Malakree

[Scurvydog]

I prefer the Ironfist over the gorefist, evne with only GGs to use 3 man units for objectives and support and the 6 man unit as a hammer. If they are in combat the next turn the ability to fight in the hero phase can be a huge deal and all in all opens more options down the line, as long as the boss is kept alive. If the opponent has good deployment and screening turn 1, moving 3 GG units forwards wont help all that much, while another model using MD opens all kinds of plays.

Running Ironsunz with a Weirdnob general is a hard sell, the warclan tax is pretty steep in that regard, as the traits are all very poor compared to the non clan traits. Yes I do like MD so much, that the Brutal Cunning trait alone is a game changer in my eyes, at least as much as any benefits the warclans bring. The Ironsunz command ability is the only thing I really have my eye on to reconsider.

Especially in smaller games like 1k games, Brutal Cunning and an impactful artifact will be much more important.

[Primes]

2 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

I prefer the Ironfist over the gorefist, evne with only GGs to use 3 man units for objectives and support and the 6 man unit as a hammer. If they are in combat the next turn the ability to fight in the hero phase can be a huge deal and all in all opens more options down the line, as long as the boss is kept alive. If the opponent has good deployment and screening turn 1, moving 3 GG units forwards wont help all that much, while another model using MD opens all kinds of plays.

Running Ironsunz with a Weirdnob general is a hard sell, the warclan tax is pretty steep in that regard, as the traits are all very poor compared to the non clan traits. Yes I do like MD so much, that the Brutal Cunning trait alone is a game changer in my eyes, at least as much as any benefits the warclans bring. The Ironsunz command ability is the only thing I really have my eye on to reconsider.

Especially in smaller games like 1k games, Brutal Cunning and an impactful artifact will be much more important.

Nevermind - got Brutal Cunning and Smashing + Bashing confused!

Nevertheless. If you take the Weirdnob Shaman as General an give him the +D3 CP Trait you essentially get 1-3 activations of MD with some more flexibility (using them for Battleshocks or +1 to Hit or a Whaag). Not too bad, considering most games seem to be decided by Turn 3 or 4.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Primes

[Scurvydog]

2 minutes ago, Primes said:

Nevermind - got Brutal Cunning and Smashing + Bashing confused!

Nevertheless. If you take the Weirdnob Shaman as General an give him the +D3 CP Trait you essentially get 1-3 activations of MD with some more flexibility (using them for Battleshocks or +1 to Hit or a Whaag). Not too bad, considering most games seem to be decided by Turn 3 or 4.

You miss out on Waaagh though, +1-2 attacks in a combat phase can be a pretty big deal. Not having a Megaboss you also miss out on his command ability, and +1 to hit for a unit at the right time is also important. CP begin losing value when you miss out and the command abilties to actually use them on after all. But it is entirely an option of course and might be worthwhile in some cases.

If I chose a shaman as my general however, I would probably always go for +1 to cast or two spells/two casts traits instead. Then possibly the CP on 4+ artifact instead.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Scurvydog

[Primes]

32 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

You miss out on Waaagh though, +1-2 attacks in a combat phase can be a pretty big deal. Not having a Megaboss you also miss out on his command ability, and +1 to hit for a unit at the right time is also important. CP begin losing value when you miss out and the command abilties to actually use them on after all. But it is entirely an option of course and might be worthwhile in some cases.

If I chose a shaman as my general however, I would probably always go for +1 to cast or two spells/two casts traits instead. Then possibly the CP on 4+ artifact instead.

I thought you could still take a Megaboss in Ironsunz - just don´t make him your general and don´t give him an artifact. Gordrakk comes to mind as best pick; Command Ability² and Whaagh included.

[broche]

3 hours ago, EMMachine said:

Actually the Ability Mighty Destroyer itself doesn't say anywhere that it is used in an Ironjawz army. It only refers that it is used on an IRONJAWZ Unit and that only the unit has to be in range of an IRONJAWZ HERO with the Ability.

First sentence under the command ability section, juste before Mighty destroyer "Ironjawz army can use the following command ability..."

[dasnation]

So playing around with the idea with running a triple maw list.

List:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Gordrakk the Fist of Gork (540)
- Mount Trait: Heavy 'Un
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Trait: Brutish Cunning
- Artefact: Destroyer
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Killa Beat
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
- 1x Gore Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
- 1x Gore Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
- 1x Gore Choppas

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 97

So thinking here is to not take a warclan to get the free mighty destroyers. Any ideas on how to make this better? Could always drop goddrak for a regular maw and switch out for some pigs and ironfist to get the extra mighty destroyer move.
List 2:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Trait: Brutish Cunning
- Artefact: Destroyer
- Mount Trait: Mean 'Un
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
- Mount Trait: Heavy 'Un
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (160)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (160)
- Pig-iron Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
Ironfist (160)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 90

Thoughts?

 

Edited October 10, 2019 by dasnation

[Primes]

6 minutes ago, broche said:

First sentence under the command ability section, juste before Mighty destroyer "Ironjawz army can use the following command ability..."

Don´t have the Text infront of me but:

We seem to be able to use the CA under the following requirements / circumstances:

• Be an Ironjawz Army
• Have the Command Trait Brutish Cunning
• Be the Boss of an Ironfist Battalion

I don´t think that anything implies that more than one of those requirements / circumstances have to be met. Actually it would have to say that Requirement 1 and 2 or 1 and 3 or 1, 2 and 3 would have to be met but meeting Requirements 2 and 3 wont suffice.

It´s similar with Endless Spells. A Tzaangor Shaman can use a Beasts of Chaos Endless Spell in a Tzeentch Army. Why should my Gore Grunta Boss not be able to use an Ironjawz CA in a Big Whaag army?

I still see why it´s discussed...could be a lot clearer and might even  be decided otherwise in an FAQ

 

[EMMachine]

8 minutes ago, broche said:

First sentence under the command ability section, juste before Mighty destroyer "Ironjawz army can use the following command ability..."

Yeah, but this doesn't say that "Brutish Cunning" of the Command Traits and "Up and At'em" Ability of the Ironfist Battalion can't use the rule or that it doesn't work for those two abilities when used in a Great War! Allegiance.

It only says that an Ironjaws Army automaticly has those two abilities.

Up and At'em allows Mighty Destroyer it for the Big Boss of the Battalion and Brutish Cunning allows it for every Hero that could use the command Trait.

Mighty Destroyer itself isn't restricted on any Allegiance.

[broche]

@EMMachine @Primes the fact only that we are discussing it raise reasonnable doubt that it work or not. Since it directly affect army building, this is the kind of thing you need a FAQ to be 100% clear about. You can't go to a tournament bringing an Ironfist / Brutish cunning in a big Waaagh and start arguing with opponent about the legality of it. 

If I had to bet, I would give a 2/3 1/3 in favor of it working. So far from enough to be 100% confident on it working . 

[Jabbuk]

Quick question about warbeats. It say ''at the start of the combat phase''. 

 

Does that mean that in a single turn, I can cast it at the combat phase of my opponent AND at my combat phase?

Edited October 10, 2019 by Jabbuk

[TALegion]

37 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

Quick question about warbeats. It say ''at the start of the combat phase''. 

 

Does that mean that in a single turn, I can cast it at the combat phase of my opponent AND at my combat phase?

At times where an ability gives a non-specific "the combat phase" or "the hero phase" (as opposed to "your hero phase"), you can use it in the opponent's phase as well as your own.

[ccconner777]

I'll start with yes this definitely needs an FAQ, but for those looking to play before the FAQ comes out,

I agree with those that argue that brutal cunning is usable RAW in the Big Waaagh!. The text "if you have an Ironjawz army, you CAN USE the following command abilities" simply defines a condition that allows the command abilities to be used. The wording of the command ability is "...this general CAN USE the Mighty Destroyers command ability...". Just like the text from the IJ allegiance abilities page, this text defines a condition which allows the use of the command ability. Neither is worded more strongly than the other and nothing here suggests one is conditional on the other.

This is the same sort of situation as a wizard that can steal a spell from another wizard. The capability to use the spell is given by the spell stealing ability, and is completely independent of the allegiance of the two wizards, even if the spell is located in a certain army's spell lore. There are 2 separate conditions that allow the spell to be used, one on the 1st wizard's warscroll or in their respective spell lore in their battletome and the other in the spell stealing ability of the 2nd wizard. Each condition works independently of the other and allows the use of the spell.

Keep in mind however that Mighty Destroyers can only affect Ironjaws units, so the command trait doesn't let you use the command ability on bonesplitterz units.

Thematically i think it is appropriate that this would work too, since an ironjawz general might lead an ironkawz army at one time and later might lead a Big Waaagh! army. It only makes sense that he would still be the same character, with the same defining leadership characteristics that are represented in game by their command traits and that, applied to the same troops it would have the same affect. 

[ccconner777]

1 hour ago, ccconner777 said:

The wording of the command ability is "...this general CAN USE the Mighty Destroyers command ability...".

Sorry I meant command trait at the start of this sentence, not ability. I do not know how to edit my post.

[Jabbuk]

38 minutes ago, ccconner777 said:

Sorry I meant command trait at the start of this sentence, not ability. I do not know how to edit my post.

There's an Edit button on the right of the Quote button, on your posts. It's at the bottom left on the frame.

[Jabbuk]

Deleted.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Jabbuk

[Nogginnocker]

For the life of me, I don’t know why more people aren’t talking about a buffed up weirdnob on a balewind with several bonuses to cast and wrath of gork bombing the heck out of the opponent. It’s such an obvious spell to take in a list with two weirdnobs, or even one that can cast two lore spells, that it’s baffling me that it’s not dominating this thread. 

[Jabbuk]

8 hours ago, TALegion said:

At times where an ability gives a non-specific "the combat phase" or "the hero phase" (as opposed to "your hero phase"), you can use it in the opponent's phase as well as your own.

Oh, in the intro text of Warbeats, it says that each warbeat can only be attempted to cast once per turn... It means you can't cast it in your combat phase and in theirs. Bummer.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Jabbuk

[Nogginnocker]

50 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

Oh, in the intro text of Warbeats, it says that each warbeat can only be attempted to cast once per turn... It means you can't cast it in your combat phase and in theirs. Bummer.

Once per turn. Each battle round consists of two turns (yours and your opponent’s).  So it means you can cast it in both your combat phase and theirs. 

[Rivener]

1 hour ago, Nogginnocker said:

For the life of me, I don’t know why more people aren’t talking about a buffed up weirdnob on a balewind with several bonuses to cast and wrath of gork bombing the heck out of the opponent. It’s such an obvious spell to take in a list with two weirdnobs, or even one that can cast two lore spells, that it’s baffling me that it’s not dominating this thread. 

I’m not sure how the Balewind Vortex affects the spell. Does “spell range” mean every time a distance is measured by the spell? If so, yeah, that’s shockingly lethal. 
 

It also paints a gigantic bullseye on the caster, who is an immobile 4+ 6 wound model that everybody now has LOS to. That’s at least somewhat relevant.

[Malakree]

3 hours ago, Rivener said:

I’m not sure how the Balewind Vortex affects the spell. Does “spell range” mean every time a distance is measured by the spell? If so, yeah, that’s shockingly lethal. 
 

It also paints a gigantic bullseye on the caster, who is an immobile 4+ 6 wound model that everybody now has LOS to. That’s at least somewhat relevant.

Not on hand of gork, the +1 to wound or the friendly IJ unit part of wrath of gork.

You can hand of gork him and keep the balewind so he's not immobile. 

If he's in cover on a balewind he'll be on a 3+ save. Combine with the fix 'em beat and it's harder to kill than you think.

[Nogginnocker]

6 hours ago, Rivener said:

I’m not sure how the Balewind Vortex affects the spell. Does “spell range” mean every time a distance is measured by the spell? If so, yeah, that’s shockingly lethal. 
 

It also paints a gigantic bullseye on the caster, who is an immobile 4+ 6 wound model that everybody now has LOS to. That’s at least somewhat relevant.

Yes. Page 4 of the designer’s commentary for the AoS core rules addresses this. It would extend both ranges of the spell because they both originate from the caster.

 

Q: Sometimes a spell will have an area of effect (e.g. all models from a unit that are within 18" of the caster, or all models within 3" of a point on the battlefield that is within 24" of the caster). If an ability increases the range of the spell, is the size of this area of effect increased by the same amount as the range is increased?

A: If the area of effect is measured from the caster, yes. If the area of effect is measured from a point on the battlefield, no – the ability will increase the range to
the point on the battlefield instead. To carry on your example, if an ability increased the range of a spell by 6", then in the first case the spell would affect all the models from the unit that were within 24" of the caster instead of 18", while in the second case the range of the point on the battlefield would be 30" instead of 24" but the spell would still only affect models within 3" of that point. Note that if area of effect is measured from a point on the battlefield, and that point is ‘anywhere on the battlefield’, then an ability that increases the range will have no effect on that spell.

[Jabbuk]

8 hours ago, Nogginnocker said:

Once per turn. Each battle round consists of two turns (yours and your opponent’s).  So it means you can cast it in both your combat phase and theirs. 

You're right, I think I'm mixing both the words turn and rounds. A battle round is both the enemy and your turn? I guess what's confusing me is that you roll initiative once both turns happened. What do you call that big round that includes both turns?

[Malakree]

50 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

You're right, I think I'm mixing both the words turn and rounds. A battle round is both the enemy and your turn? I guess what's confusing me is that you roll initiative once both turns happened. What do you call that big round that includes both turns?

Unless the battleplan states otherwise the "Round" starts with the priority roll. It consists of the endless spell movement, both turns and anything which occurs after the second players turn. It also includes Skragrott's moon onna stick which is the only "end of the round" atm.

Things like the stars in starfall also occur in the round.