Spirit host....who uses them?

[Dracothjay]

So I’ve been playing with spirit host, trying to include a unit of 6 in as many games as I play. I am always trying to optimise my lists to the best it can be and I’m always thinking, “ for 240 points are SH worth it or is there something better?”

SH PROS:

1) can pump mortal wounds out like a boss and with the right buffs can gain additional attacks.

2) Durable and make a great tarpit

3) large-ish bases make for great screening and good board coverage

4) decent move value

SH CONS:

1) deathly invocation is hard on these guys as rolling a 5+ just to bring one back is a little on the ‘it won’t happen’ side due to each model having 3 wounds each.

2) sometimes the mortal wounds you hope for don’t materialise.

 

So I could only come up with 2 downfalls for these guys. I really do like them, a lot, but as our new DI ability to heal OR resurrect fallen models is so crucial to our game, does anyone tend not to use them and go for more 1 wound models, or if choosing multi wound models stick with 2 wound each models?

Let me hear your thoughts.

 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2018 by Dracothjay

[Takaloy]

been looking at Death list for a bit but the biggest issue for me about Sprit Hosts is that they're not battleline. It's been mentioned that they're the most points efficient unit for Death so you can't go wrong there.

Though having other battlelines that can do screening , or w/ mobility (in terms of wolves), I wonder often to myself where Spirit Host fits in the greater scheme of things. Mortal wounds is nice, though my mages can certainly throw out a few. Would I rather have big hitting rend units like Morghast?

[themortalgod]

One major con:

Spirit hosts are hosed by -1 to hit debuffs which are pretty common in the game. -1 to hit for most models will be between 25% and 50% reduction in damage output. For spirit host that number is over 75%.

 

[kenshin620]

6 hours ago, Takaloy said:

been looking at Death list for a bit but the biggest issue for me about Sprit Hosts is that they're not battleline.

To be fair you could say that about many non battleline units!

Given how there is an upcoming teaser for what appears to be a modern Black Coach, maybe all the ghosts will get some buffs. Though wishful thinking on my part.

[Richelieu]

I played a game yesterday where my opponent used spirit hosts to great effect.  She tired up Marathi on one of the central objectives in battle for the pass.  All of Morathi's rend was for naught.  Took me two turns off morathi plus shooting support to take out the unit of 6, losing points in the mean time.  

I'm always more afraid of spirit hosts than just about any other death unit.  There are really only two good ways to take them down.  Lots of low quality attacks (which either aren't always available, or if they are, have to be positioned to take on the hosts), or neutering them with a -1 to hit debuff as @themortalgod mentioned.

[Nevar]

The thing about our Spirit Hosts is they are good 'generalist' units like you said when you listed their pros vs. cons, but they are also outstanding in other roles.

They are cheap and effective ethereal units, and in a game where models pay a premium for rending high damage attacks, Spirit Hosts not only can tie up enemy units, do mortal wounds, and are decently fast as well they also can strip the teeth out of some of the most dangerous units in the game.
Spirit of Durthu does 6 Damage on his sword with really good rend?  4+ on modified ignores it all.

I play Necrons in 40k, and I use Spirit Hosts similarly to how I use Scarab Swarms and Canoptek Wraiths.  Mobile screen and assault units that are frustratingly difficult to kill.  The fact that we can get a model back on a 5+ is just gravy in my opinion.  5+ is the roll needed for Necrons to self repair as standard and that rule is extremely powerful.

All that said though, I think the Spirit Hosts benefit much better in LoN than they do in Nighthaunt.  I use them exclusively in Nighthaunt which means for me they are also my battleline and the bulk of my forces.  While you listed this as a con in LoN I would argue this is a weakness for Spirit Hosts in Nighthaunt.  Being the primary unit forces me to use them in situations where they are less effective.  Six to nine Spirit Hosts charging into 20 plague bearers with a -1 to hit them is a grinding attrition combat that the Spirit Hosts do not want to be in.  Not just because they are going to lose their Mortal Wound potential... but because our ethereal is also way less valuable vs damage 1 no rend attacks.  Being forced to commit them into that sort of battle because they are all I have is forcing me to use them much less efficiently than I could in a LoN where I have skeletons I can use to charge into those plague bearers while my Spirit Hosts are free to seek the opponents they are best at fighting like great unclean ones.

Lastly, to join in the wild speculation and also wish list a bit... the new Nighthaunt looking teaser showed what looked like infantry sized ghosts with hand weapons.  If Nighthaunt could get a cheaper more 'battleline' styled ghost unit that is cheaper and more 'throw away' to let me untie my Spirit Hosts from stupid attrition battles like plague bearers and liberators, it will only improve the state of Spirit Hosts in LoN and Nighthaunt alliance forces.

[Dracothjay]

I will admit, my last game 6 spirit host held off 10 retributors for the best part of 4 rounds. The help of deathly invocation and fading vigour let them hold their ground until finally attrition got the better of them. I was super impressed with them, and I can’t help but feel each time you roll the dice for them it’s a gamble. Sometimes you’ll roll 6’s like your in Las Vegas, and other times you’ll be deeply disappointed.

[Bradifer]

Spirit Hosts are either really efficient or inefficient depending on who you put them up against.

If they're tarpitting big rend units and they don't have -1 to hit, you're winning the value war, so you should pull ahead in the rest of the battle.

If your hosts are stuck against -1 attack debuffs or enemy infantry with rend (-), then they will die faster than they will kill, so that's where they're not efficient.

The gravesites may not rez models often, but they can still heal up damaged hosts.

 

I think the main argument here is spirit hosts vs. hexwraiths and when to pick one over another.

Spirit hosts should be battleline, but since they're not it makes the decision easier.

Hexwraiths are easier to bring back with DI, are faster, and have decent attacks some 6+ mortal wound attempts.

Overall slightly more damage to units without a great save - but spirit hosts are better vs units with high save.

I think it revolves a lot more around what your strategy is going to be on every mission.

Hexwraiths are fast and can still fly, so now you have a very strategic unit that uses mobility, damage, and durability to win objectives.

So I think it's more of an overall army composition think. Are your units arriving in waves? How do hexwraiths affect that-which wave do they arrive?

Or do you need objective holders that mostly stand in place? Hosts are more efficient for that job, but are they really if hexwraiths are easier to reanimate?

What's your plan with summoning units from gravesites? Hosts get more value from this because they are slow. Well now you need a hero to reliably move up and summon hosts out of the grave, etc...

 

Lots of decisions but that's why I think GW did a good job making them both good units but not auto-include skyfire/kurnoth hunter level units.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Bradifer

[Nevar]

You are also a lot less likely to have to worry about battleshock with Spirit Hosts than you do with Hexwraiths.

The unreliable damage output of Spirit Hosts is only a problem if you intended them to be killing things.  Obviously you always want your units to kill things, but if you are thinking of them as reliable damage dealers than that is why you might get a 'meh' feeling about their 'roll the dice' type of damage as opposed to something more reliable.

I assume they will do no damage when making my plans, and so if and when they spike a bunch of Mortal Wounds it is an unlooked for boon, and when they wiff really badly it's not a disappointment.

I think Spirit Hosts are worth their points excluding their offensive power entirely.  But I play Nighthaunt, so I use them and Hexwraiths exclusively so I could be bias/jaded.

[Josh]

i run 9 in my 2k list & they are amazing. Damn them & double pile in generally means a monster or unit is being deleted

I played in a tournament on the weekend and most games people had no idea how effective they were at dealing damage

even if an army has -1 hit then i just use them as a tarpit 

[Dracothjay]

Do you not use knight of shrouds to give them +1 to hit? He has the nighthaunt keyword so it’s legal to include him

[AverageBoss]

8 hours ago, Dracothjay said:

Do you not use knight of shrouds to give them +1 to hit? He has the nighthaunt keyword so it’s legal to include him

In a Nighthaunt list that works.

In a Legions list he can only be taken as an ally though, so keep that in mind.

[Dracothjay]

7 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

In a Nighthaunt list that works.

Is only ever take shrouds in a nighthaunt list anyway.

heres a question to put it bluntly. How would favour 10 hexwraiths over 6 spirit host or vice verca???

[Nevar]

The problem with your question is that there are other aspects that effect the decision.

Am I playing Nighthaunt?  Do I have Mr. Shrouds? Am I Legion with a lot of casters to roll to bring back models?

In my Nighthaunt, I have Mr. Shrouds, x18 Spirit Hosts in groups of six, and a massive blob of x15 Hexwraiths.  In my case the answer is both, especially with Mr. Shrouds being able to boost the Spirit Hosts, and the Spirit Hosts also have Cairn Wraith backup.

If I am playing LoN with casters and skeletons and no Mr. Shrouds, Hexwraiths are probably a better bet as a drop in ethereal unit.  Hexwraiths can breeze back and forth between objectives, are easier to revive, have 4+ ethereal save, can do pass over MWs, and has frightful touch.  They also are less reliant on any kind of support than Spirit Hosts.

[Dracothjay]

Last night I had a game against darkling covens. 1.5 k and included in my legion of night list. 

My opponent was wary of them and kept spamming the -1 tonhit spell on them. It made them useless and they didn’t see combat, but slowly moved up onto his objective (knife to the heart).

im gonna use hexwraiths instead I think, faster and adds more pressure I think. 

[ChippyRick]

I have been using Spirit Hosts since GHB 2016 dropped. They were part of a mixed death list, and most commonly ran 2 x units of 6.

No point talking to much on previous, but now with the added spell lores available and still with a number of buffs for them i think they are still a top choice.

Small units have there place at 120 points. little objective holding units as the least, nice with the unmodified save. But also able to buff the small footprint and throw 18 attacks at small units/heroes is nice.

Units of 6-9 as already mentioned can both deal a huge amount of damage out but also be a great tarpit to stop units. I have found recently that with a lot of -1 to hit out there, you can play some match-ups where their damage output isn't available. But with your potential to slow the enemy down (I use Nagash and spells with minus to hit or less attacks to name a few) means they hold up the opponents damage. This is where you need other options in the army, which before wasn't as easy to find, but i think now with the new book we have many more options.

To name a few, my list for Heat 2 at Warhammer World had Nagash. Since then i am now running Nagash and Prince Vhordrai (he came in instead of the second unit of Spirit Hosts and a few small heroes), and i am also going to try a large block of skeletons and Morghasts at some point as well. 

I have not used them in full Nighthaunts since the latest releases, but i have played against them. In Grand Host of Nagash i feel the Nighthaunts units in general are better off than using Nighthaunts Allegience atm. Fingers crossed in the future this could change!

[ledha]

22 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

In a Nighthaunt list that works.

In a Legions list he can only be taken as an ally though, so keep that in mind.

I may be wrong, but the prophets can be allies AND general without breaking your allegiance, can't they ?

Edited May 1, 2018 by ledha

[Mcthew]

On 01/05/2018 at 6:55 AM, Dracothjay said:

Last night I had a game against darkling covens. 1.5 k and included in my legion of night list. 

My opponent was wary of them and kept spamming the -1 tonhit spell on them. It made them useless and they didn’t see combat, but slowly moved up onto his objective (knife to the heart).

im gonna use hexwraiths instead I think, faster and adds more pressure I think. 

I'm gonna say 'meh' with the hexwraiths too really. Just played my 9 year old's Stormcast which pretty much annihilated the spirit hosts and the hexwraiths with a combination of vanguard hunters and liberators (yes! Liberators!). Even without the rending of my units, both are pretty pants points-wise and did naff-all damage. Hitting them with a "wet flannel" might have done more damage (that's 5 to hit, 9 to wound, for all those wondering). The spirit hosts were particularly useless in that regard, other than lasting in combat for almost 3 rounds, which was nice.

But then who cares, really? My nighthaunt look much better than Stormcast. So sure,I had my butt kicked, but my ethereal butt was better than all that sigmarite butt, all day long. 

Edited May 5, 2018 by Mcthew

[Bradifer]

On 5/5/2018 at 1:51 PM, Mcthew said:

I'm gonna say 'meh' with the hexwraiths too really....

The spirit hosts were particularly useless in that regard, other than lasting in combat for almost 3 rounds, which was nice.

You might need to test them over a few more games. Sounds like the dice were just not in your favor.

Also I find most death units are very much about how the affect the battle/objective.

So if your spirit hosts/hexwraiths just hold down part of the board and demand specific answers, they are doing their job, so the rest of your army can do its job.

Don't forget you can always just retreat hexwraiths and fly out of combat, maybe do some mortal wounds, and regenerate for a turn or two.

[Josh]

i think people forget that this game isnt always about just wiping your opponent off the table.

like if my unit of 9 hosts has -1 i just put them into the biggest scariest target, ignoring rend, 3 wounds & can  regen they are a perfect tarpit 

if you guys are playing matched play i encourage you guys to play the scenarios in the GHB & use terrain, makes the game so much more interesting to play

[Honk]

It’s a point objective game...might even win after getting wiped.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I'm finding that Death seems to need to play the outlasting game. Simply wearing people down, making sure fights are in your favour and as one-sided a physically possible. I tend to use Dire Wolves as tiedown units for that reason, while the damage dealers bully and gang on the real threats. 

I've really struggled with using Spirit Hosts in this setup though. I run Legion of Blood for the Bravery debuff abilities as those can stack well against some armies. Spirit Hosts I find are that unit which are really good against a particular kind of unit...which is why any opponent that knows you will simply avoid it with that kind of unit. In the same way you keep your monsters away from Big Stabbaz, my opponents simply throw trash units at my Spirit Hosts who don't care about MW and don't care about Rend, which means my Hosts aren't really making themselves felt. They don't really have the speed to outmaneuver things either.

I might consider Hexwraiths soon, though with the Nighthaunt release coming up I reckon I'll wait to see how that shapes up.

[Oogje]

Not really on topic, but it's about spirit Hosts does Frightful Touch ever trigger if the spirit host have a total modifier to hit of - 1?

[AverageBoss]

2 minutes ago, Oogje said:

Not really on topic, but it's about spirit Hosts does Frightful Touch ever trigger if the spirit host have a total modifier to hit of - 1?

Only if you can counter that with a +1 of your own. Otherwise, those 6s you roll become 5s.

[DevilsDice]

 

On 5/14/2018 at 6:28 PM, AverageBoss said:

Only if you can counter that with a +1 of your own. Otherwise, those 6s you roll become 5s.

Those 6s are still mortal wounds as it's an unmodified 6 are mortals before any modify is applied