"Just Play Better"

[Turragor]

6 hours ago, heywoah_twitch said:

I played one game with my unpainted stormcast and it was terrifically fun, does that make me a drone? I love paladins! 

Ppl hate on their aesthetic (I love it) and some seem to despise when SCE get releases but the important thing is, you can play all sorts of ways with SCE and do well - I always feel the games are mine to lose if I make a decent list.

The tools are at my disposal after all with many, many warscrolls.

[Malakree]

35 minutes ago, Turragor said:

Ppl hate on their aesthetic (I love it) and some seem to despise when SCE get releases but the important thing is, you can play all sorts of ways with SCE and do well - I always feel the games are mine to lose if I make a decent list.

The tools are at my disposal after all with many, many warscrolls.

I think that's the main gripe. Stormcast are easily the largest and most diverse faction to the point they could almost be their own grand alliance. 

Despite that they continue to get a none stop stream of models and warscrolls while whole GAs are left waiting months for anything.

In the time I've been playing SC have received 2 new heroes while neither death or destruction have had anything.

It's one thing to have a preference but it's gone far beyond that into a full blown festish to the detriment of the game as  a whole.

[Turragor]

8 minutes ago, Malakree said:

It's one thing to have a preference but it's gone far beyond that into a full blown festish to the detriment of the game as  a whole.

I get that people are annoyed but at this extreme (how would a business have a fetish?) Yes SC have a chunk of scrolls (mostly from one box being 3 things) but I don't agree to the same extreme as some.

 

[Richelieu]

7 hours ago, heywoah_twitch said:

I played one game with my unpainted stormcast and it was terrifically fun, does that make me a drone? I love paladins! 

Yeah, I catch some flak for playing Stormcast sometimes...but it bounces right off because I've got paladins...golden paladins.

And even though there are better options, I love throwing a hammerstrike force into lists because paladins hurled from the sky on lightning bolts is just cool.  

[Turragor]

The thing about this whole thread though is that, it's not just about BCR lacking lots of very competitive options, it's that the few competitive options they did have don't seem to work much anymore! SO I won't mention SC again here

 

[Richelieu]

1 minute ago, Turragor said:

The thing about this whole thread though is that, it's not just about BCR lacking lots of very competitive options, it's that the few competitive options they did have don't seem to work much anymore! SO I won't mention SC again here

 

Which is unfortunate, because aesthetically there are few factions that rival BCR in my opinion.  

[Turragor]

1 hour ago, Richelieu said:

Which is unfortunate, because aesthetically there are few factions that rival BCR in my opinion.  

Yup! I've 1500 points painted with enough to make it 2k but I'm biding my time with the new nurgle stuff!

[heywoah_twitch]

Yeah I don't begrudge any armies for releases really. Khorne for instance has just as many releases and model range, or close to it, but stormcast are easier to hate on I guess. I don't expect new models for BCR, pretty much ever, just give me regular warscroll updates so my dudes stay competitive and I'm happy.

[SolarBur]

15 hours ago, heywoah_twitch said:

Packs of sabers are fine, people tend to ignore them for juicier targets, the risk is their low bravery when they're finally attacked then tend to all flee. Of the two monsters I'd recommend a stonehorn, as you can practice setting up Linebreaker ability. Thundertusk is overpowered and frustrating to play against for very new players, but then once they figure out more about the game he becomes an impotent 380 point anchor holding you back imo.

Thanks for getting back to me. 

Yeah I can see why people keep them in smaller unit sizes, their bravery is a problem. But i'm hoping that my bigger targets will draw fire while the hunter pops up and gives them a little charge boost so they can pounce on something squishy.

When i hit 1.5 i think i'm going to go and build up a huskard on a thunder tusk. I think one of each monster is a good idea, and having a couple of bonus abilities can help the army along. I've also been thinking about running yhettee's funny enough. Dropping some of the kitties in 1.5 and taking up a pack of 6 yhettees. As for the models, i've been toying with the idea of using spirit hosts, basically classing them as the ever winter reaching out as the beastclaw raiders move, freezing prey and land with their touch. 

As for how to paint them, i was thinking of using the ice painting guide on warhammer tv (or using the one in the book), making them look like they are formed by ice. But i'm not quite sure, just toying with the idea right now. Also needing to learn how to sculpt fur for the cloaks on my ogres, as well as painting in general

So much to learn for a beginner ^^;;;

 

Also, a couple of the things mentioned. I can see why people would be frustrated with certain factions getting more releases than others, with the stormcast taking on the role of space marines in fantasy (meaning they are the face of AoS), it would be weird to not see a lot of options and releases for them. It is a shame that destruction and death lack more new models, i can understand that liking either of these factions and feeling like we are getting passed over for order and chaos can be frustrating. But we will have our time eventually. I think its just mostly because there were never many factions within destruction to begin with. it was basically ogres, goblins and orcs, with different varieties of each. Same for death. But hopefully after this new campaign, destruction will get some loving too. 

I do also agree that beastclaw aren't so much lacking. They just have the bonesplitterz syndrome. The whole there is a solid way to play them, but its pretty much that way or a slight variation. I'm not really a competitive player, but i don't really see the lacking in options. Don't get me wrong, i know its a little tricky to amass an army of size when you playing BCR, but i don't think we are a weak army, we just have our way of doing things. Same as any other faction. Destruction is what it is, we crush armies by force, we might not have the buffs of order, the summoning of new troops like death, or the diversity of troops like chaos, but we do have our own strengths to work with. Just so happens our strength lies in charging and beating up the foes with our fists

[heywoah_twitch]

On 1/20/2018 at 9:04 AM, heywoah_twitch said:

So on one hand it's pretty disgusting to think about going all in on yhetees (from a financial and modeling position, or if you use a counts-as and then spam it that's awkward as well). On the other hand you could make sort of a "beastclaw does flesheater courts" style army except without the great buff spells&abilities, and crucially no regenerating units like:

Frostlord on Thundertusk w/ master, pelt

Troggoth Hag ally

9 yhetee, 6 yhetee, 6 yhetee, 3 yhetee, 3 yhetee, 4 frost saber

1980

Absolute madman, someone's actually doing it at Australia's Cancon 2018

doom and darkness guys don't really have much to say about it (it's clear they aren't familiar with beastclaw beyond playing against last year's stone-rukk style lists) but still I want to hear about his report if he does one!

With massive bulk and the frostlord version, you'd need to do 5 wounds to chart the frost wreathed ice, and so he's eschewing the re-roll on everwinter's master, which is probably fine since what we usually want is the re-roll saves of 1 result, but with yetis on 6s they get no saves against rend -1 anyway, so it's really not that much value lost tbh. The huskard probably follows the mournfang around giving them linebreaker for a nice outflank squad.

[Turragor]

This could be the new thing. Or the start of a variation on a new option.

I'd be all in to test with plastic yhetees. They're quick paint jobs. 

That is interesting in itself. There absolutely are options for armies out there that will work pretty well but the limit is the hobby restrictions and not any performance restrictions. 

I mean usually ppl build a deep collection with just one favourite faction (like me and sc) and even then desire for variety means I only have  4 dracothian guard and I've only one stardrake. So some Experiments are  limited. 

[heywoah_twitch]

Okay so 21 yeti guy got 101st out of 104. I wanted to be positive about his interesting list, but I dare say this isn't too unexpected.

[Malakree]

2 minutes ago, heywoah_twitch said:

Okay so 21 yeti guy got 101st out of 104. I wanted to be positive about his interesting list, but I dare say this isn't too unexpected.

Is it just a case of throwing in the towel in order to switch to Destruction rather than Beastclaw allegiance? This might be one of those cases where you just gain to many options from the broad allegiance. 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Destruction

Leaders
Tyrant (160)
- General
- Massive Ogor Club
Huskard on Thundertusk (380)
- Chaintrap 
Huskard on Thundertusk (380)
- Chaintrap 
Gitmob Grot Shaman (80)

Battleline
60 x Gitmob Grots (270)
- Bows & Slashas 
12 x Ogors (400)
- Ogor Clubs or Blades with Iron Fists
20 x Moonclan Grots (130)
- Pokin Spears & Moon Shields 

War Machines
Grot Rock Lobber (100)
Grot Rock Lobber (100)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 182

I guess at this point you're not really running a BCR list anymore.

[kozokus]

4 hours ago, heywoah_twitch said:

Okay so 21 yeti guy got 101st out of 104. I wanted to be positive about his interesting list, but I dare say this isn't too unexpected.

Don't be that way there is stilla  nice BCR list that made 49 (Yeah, i know, hurray, now look at the two others that are past the 100th out of 104 players)

[heywoah_twitch]

8 hours ago, kozokus said:

Don't be that way there is stilla  nice BCR list that made 49 (Yeah, i know, hurray, now look at the two others that are past the 100th out of 104 players)

I meant the viability of yeti-spam more than how bcr would do haha

12 hours ago, Malakree said:

Is it just a case of throwing in the towel in order to switch to Destruction rather than Beastclaw allegiance? This might be one of those cases where you just gain to many options from the broad allegiance. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Allegiance: Destruction

Leaders
Tyrant (160)
- General
- Massive Ogor Club
Huskard on Thundertusk (380)
- Chaintrap 
Huskard on Thundertusk (380)
- Chaintrap 
Gitmob Grot Shaman (80)

Battleline
60 x Gitmob Grots (270)
- Bows & Slashas 
12 x Ogors (400)
- Ogor Clubs or Blades with Iron Fists
20 x Moonclan Grots (130)
- Pokin Spears & Moon Shields 

War Machines
Grot Rock Lobber (100)
Grot Rock Lobber (100)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 182

I guess at this point you're not really running a BCR list anymore.

So my issue is if I start from the idea of building a GA: Dest army, I see no reason to use any beastclaw models. Thundertusk has effectively 5 wounds when it gets right down to it, and any decent enemy shooters (arkanaut company, kurnoth, longstrikes, grot spear chukka, even judicators) can plink him down in one turn from a very safe distance. He's stupendously expensive when he isn't exactly sniping a hero every turn against an enemy with no ranged. The offensive behemoths are worse than other options, even in dest much less across the game. If I'm playing grand alliance monster mash I'd actually use the good monsters (troggoth hag, araknarok shaman, dread maw, etc).

If anything, the most useful bcr I could see would be a 4-man mournfang unit ally in a butcher-stacking gutbusters army.

[Malakree]

6 hours ago, heywoah_twitch said:

So my issue is if I start from the idea of building a GA: Dest army, I see no reason to use any beastclaw models. Thundertusk has effectively 5 wounds when it gets right down to it, and any decent enemy shooters (arkanaut company, kurnoth, longstrikes, grot spear chukka, even judicators) can plink him down in one turn from a very safe distance. He's stupendously expensive when he isn't exactly sniping a hero every turn against an enemy with no ranged. The offensive behemoths are worse than other options, even in dest much less across the game. If I'm playing grand alliance monster mash I'd actually use the good monsters (troggoth hag, araknarok shaman, dread maw, etc).

Yeah I started building the list and really struggled to work out which BCR unit I would put in there. The thundertusk is the only one because it has no equivalent in the GA. I'd much rather have a Mawkrusha or Hag than a stonehorn, the hag even costs less, not sure if I'd take the Mournfang or the Goregruntas, they are basically the same unit.

[heywoah_twitch]

Had two beastclaw games, though only one picture:

pic above is charging frostlord into gordrakk and the whole ironjawz army alone, we got mystic shield and everwinter is on fortifying frost, let's dance.

Both games ended in draws, as the battle plans we rolled were knife to the heart and both involved turn 5 both armies having only a few models left alive. We each mostly targeted eachothers fastest units first to make sure they couldn't get to our objectives. One was against mixed Khorne, the other Ironjawz. Khorne was on gore pilgrims with one bloodletter unit, and the ironjawz was gordrakk + an ironfist to buff with his command ability.

I went with my newest brew:

Frostlord on Thundertusk, general, everwinter, pelt

Frostlord on Stonehorn

2x butcher w/ cauldron

4x mournfang, 4x mournfang, 2x mournfang

The idea goes, yes, just mournfang spam is better than using any behemoths at all, but a) I don't have 20 of them nor do I wish to, b) I want to play with my behemoths that I chose the army to play and bought and painted, and c) it's not like mournfang spam is that great anyway, as their huge bases get in each others' way and still miss over half the time per swing.

So following that, yes, huskards are more efficient point-wise than frostlords, but 12 wounds on a 4+ is just ****** for a 380 monster and they just die. So you have to overpay, but you need that 3+ so that's that. Yes, for thundertusk frostlord you lose the heal, but one 4+ roll is just so easy to fail that it's like it doesn't even exist (I failed to heal with blizzard speaker for three whole games leading up to this decision). My slaughterpriest opponent was feeling this hard in our game, failing almost every turn. Also they chart after 3 wounds rather than on the 3rd wound, which often matters.

The plan is to always re-roll everwinter to get fortifying hoarfrost to re-roll save rolls of 1, and then cast mystic shield on a frostlord to make a 2+ save rr1, bcr-themed build-your-own stardrake, except much worse and random twice.

The frostlord with mystic shield was able to tank gordrakk, 3 gore gruntas,  and 10 ardboys for 2 turns, giving me ample time to fire away with the thundertusk. I failed to cast after that, so he lost mystic shield and died, but it was still pretty good. He waited too long to pop gordrakk's command ability, not wanting to waste it just killing a frostlord, but this proved to be in error in retrospect, as by the time frostlord got pulled down he'd lost enough of his other units that it proved lukewarm at best. I took special care not to enter too many combats at once or with any weakened units, so as to not get completely blown out by smashin' and bashin'.

Of course a 270pt unit of bloodletters completely melted the 460 frostlord in one turn, but that's what they do, what with current stone skeleton. Khorne's priests failed an abnormally large amount of prayers even with the re-rolls and I got lucky with a vicious maw or I'd've been tabled at the top of 4. Blood Warriors, even with buffs continue to be (at least from my side as an opponent) a very unimpressive unit. The mortal khorne battleline just seem really bad. He was giving them all these extra attacks and layering buff after buff on them, and they did a tenth of what a cheap unit of bloodletters did with a single hero nearby. It's too bad since they look so cool, and bloodletters look like the goblins from diablo 2, weak and boring.

What I learned:

Frostlords, while quite expensive and lacking the utility of the huskards, are worth overpaying for, as we don't have the luxury of cost-effective stuff. The huskards/beastriders simply shatter for being monsters of their cost, and so the 3+ save ones are the better choice (if you want behemoths). That, plus two butchers, gives you enough power to hang like a real army for about two turns or so. In the midgame, those high costs catch up to you, as you have even fewer mournfang/models than normal, and we just run out of guys, plus suffer from lack of reliable utility and reliable damage, like always. That being said, when fighting other bottom tier armies like mortal khorne and ironjawz, you can fight to a draw with a little luck on your side.

Also, the turn everwinter doesn't land on saves the army tends to fall apart, can't stress enough how everyone having liberator shield ability is the glue holding everything together. In the end, frostlords+butchers combo is strong, but at 600pts each you aren't getting alarielle/stardrake power levels, and the expense is pulling from your longevity and model count (which is already a problem). I think it's actually a legit list to run BCR as, for those wanting to play with our behemoths and be about as ideal as our army can manage atm.

Edit: It's fun to brew gutbusters lists:

12x ogors, 6x leadbelchers, 6x ironguts, 4x mournfang allies, 4x butchers

[heywoah_twitch]

Had a great game against @tolstedt with his 1980s pestilens on duality of death. Always a pleasure to play against a strategic and tactical player.

My list: 2x frostlord (one thunder one stone) pelt and everwinter, 2x butcher, 4 mourn, 4 mourn, 2 mourn

His list: 3 priests, verminlord general, plague furnace, 40 monks, 40 monks, 40 monks, 10 monks, 10 monks, 10 monks, warp-grinder ally (digging with a 40), 2x poison-wind mortars, arch-warlock with balewind

I failed to roll for everwinter rr1s on saves, but ran up to hold the objectives anyway with just a mystic shield on frostlord. A 2+ save just wasn't enough, though, and the big man fell to a unit of 40 monks. He was severely crippled in the first combat and finished off in the next. The kicker was their pile-in after death and mortal wound explosions on death that really brought him down. The take and hold plan with screening mournfang couldn't last past mid-turn 3, and the game was a mathematical loss after that point, so we called it. Still had probably a hundred rats to go, and 40 of them hadn't even deepstriked in yet from tunneling. Beastclaw are not well suited for take and hold defensive play, but against a horde I can't actually kill enough to physically reach the objective if I let him grab them and try to counter charge. I think it's a catch 22.

Horde armies are a bad matchup for beastclaw, and even though I had rolled the best battleplan for bcr (duality), and my list was probably the best for that exact plan (2x frostlords with wizards), we were overrun fairly easily. Re-rolling saves of 1 seems minor, but it's crucial. We talked about some alternate lines and decision points afterwards and fun was had. I feel my positioning was pretty good to deny him a great spot to deepstrike his rats in, but even so the ones on board were more than enough to get the job done. If I could do it again, I think I would counter-intuitively use the thundertusk frostlord to try and camp the right objective, as the -1 to hit him is better than the now mostly flavor text stone skeleton - that being said, the tusk was crucial on the left side to keep the plague furnace at bay (though still in range for his prayers and buffs, there just wasn't any helping that).

Edit: Some clutch dice rolls throughout the game:

Balewind failed on turn 1. Everwinter failed on turn 1. Thundertusk rolled a 1 on his breath on turn 2. Monks failed an mid-easy charge on turn 2. Tunneling rats failed to dig up turn 1.

9" monk charge succeeded. Voracious Maw got a little lucky with hitting twice, but it needed 3 hits to kill a priest. I don't think there were any crippling double turns.

[tolstedt]

1 hour ago, heywoah_twitch said:

 

His list: 3 priests, verminlord general, plague furnace, 40 monks, 40 monks, 30 monks, 20 monks, 20 monks, 10 monks, 10 monks, warp-grinder ally (digging with a 40), 2x poison-wind mortars (did I get this list right?)

 

The distribution of monks is 40, 40, 40, 10, 10 .  I can not find a way to make it 130 exact to praise the rat.  But the list is 13 drops.
There is also an arch warlock ally with balewind which is an amazing artillery piece.
 

[tolstedt]

Just now, tolstedt said:

The distribution of monks is 40, 40, 40, 10, 10 .  I can not find a way to make it 130 exact to praise the rat.  But the list is 13 drops.
There is also an arch warlock ally with balewind which is an amazing artillery piece.
 

Also I believe on all the deepstrikes I've ever played against you I get the followup 9" charge.  Is that true?  It's only 3-4 times but still good.

[heywoah_twitch]

You historically tend to make long charges and get lots of 6s, but with pestilens you're rolling hundreds of dice a turn, you're going to see the full spread of variance. You consistently roll poorly on spells against me regardless of the army iirc.

Not just this time and last time, though I recall the weirdfist who failed to cast foot of gork during an entire game, i.e. the entire reason to run that battalion in the first place.

[PlasticCraic]

On 12/7/2017 at 8:04 AM, Soup Dragon said:

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one buddy. My experience is that it sometimes does massive damage, but surprisingly often whiffs almost completely. I've lost count of the times mine have done just 3 or 4 wounds in a round of combat. I have run lists with 2 Frostlords + 2 Sonehorn beastriders and the 4+ to hit is just so swingy as to not be reliable.

Can I ask what you're running these days please?  Are you keeping the Beastclaw faith, or have you moved on?

[heywoah_twitch]

On 3/4/2018 at 6:49 PM, PlasticCraic said:

Can I ask what you're running these days please?  Are you keeping the Beastclaw faith, or have you moved on?

Not him, but I'm on mixed order the last few months (and that's what I took to Adepticon last weekend).

I did a 3-part YouTube Report here though it is obv off topic as it wasn't beastclaw.

I'm interested as well in what @Soup Dragon is playing these days or his thoughts on stuff, but I imagine it's like me: Moved on to things worth playing while we wait for GHB18 buffs.

For reference, the Beastclaw list I would have ran at Adepticon:

2x huskard on thundertusk (general with everwinter and pelt)

2x butcher ally with cauldrons

4x mournfang, 4x mournfang, 2x mournfang, 2x mournfang - all w/ hackers

2,000 points

[Soup Dragon]

2 hours ago, heywoah_twitch said:

I'm interested as well in what @Soup Dragon is playing these days or his thoughts on stuff, but I imagine it's like me: Moved on to things worth playing while we wait for GHB18 buffs.

Lol. Yes I tried to continue with Beastclaw, but the 'fun' of running a Beastclaw list quickly wore thin when it was getting beaten so easily in so many tournaments. I switched to Stormcast Vanguard Wing, which is definitely competitive (though not as invincible as people made out) but was winning me no friends and was essentially someone else's Netlist. So I have been evolving a skink based Seraphon List. Currently has 160 skinks in it . It's doing quite well. I won 4 out of 5 games at my most recent tournament (30 players) and placed 5th. I'm enjoying it as it's 'my' list. I'm also excited about the 'Fishmen' that are about to be released and probably will go all in with them for a while. But in my heart I want my big monsters back, so everything else is just filling time till we get our rules back.

[Skabnoze]

I really hope they do something good with these armies that have Battletomes but are still being left behind.  I realize that GW has always had issues with creep and that Age of Sigmar has had some serious growing pains, but they can do better (and should).  It is sad to see a number of armies that are so very nice visually (ie: Ironjawz or Beastclaw) end up frustrating people who choose them.