KO Thunderer GHB2017 Changes Information Gathering Poll

[Groomy]

Is there a warscroll update to any of the ships being buffed next to this update on Thunderers? 

[Thomas Lyons]

1 minute ago, Groomy said:

Is there a warscroll update to any of the ships being buffed next to this update on Thunderers? 

Nope.  Ships were unchanged point or rule wise.  Just a nerf to Thunderers.

[Groomy]

Oh well... I've pre-ordered mine the first hour the first KO'****** the digital shelves and most of it is still sealed so I'm not really relevant to the subject. Aessthetically, I really wasn't a fan of mortars  

[WSDdeloach]

I think the new mechanic of being able to re roll hits from unsaved wounds isn't that bad honestly. Yeah it's a bummer for people who kitted out a particular way. Club mate of ours plays KO... and he at first was bummed. But we math hammered it, it's still strong. I suspect KO will move into a Allies style army. 

[Thomas Lyons]

26 minutes ago, WSDdeloach said:

I think the new mechanic of being able to re roll hits from unsaved wounds isn't that bad honestly. Yeah it's a bummer for people who kitted out a particular way. Club mate of ours plays KO... and he at first was bummed. But we math hammered it, it's still strong. I suspect KO will move into a Allies style army. 

Really?  I'd love to see that math.  Against anything with a 4+ save or better, I wouldn't bank on too much of that stuff triggering each game, given that you will likely have one round of shooting before you are removed from the board (12" range on those weapons) and your trying to land wounds with a variable number of 4+/4+ and only rend -1.  The most reliable delivery for these attacks would be an Ironclad dropping 20 of these Thunderers off after a deepstrike and you've now invested 840 points in landing 4 aethercannon shots at 3+/2+/-2/ d3 damage.  For the same number of points you could do this same damage a host of different ways in the KO army.  

[Aezeal]

5 hours ago, Rhellion said:

You have seen who some of the playtesters are, right? There are some pretty strong power gamers on that list.

Maybe they only got a few models too.. didn't have the option to go all mad?

[Thomas Lyons]

21 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

Maybe they only got a few models too.. didn't have the option to go all mad?

I dearly hope this isn't what play testing is composed of.  You need to stress test the system for extremes not test down the middle :-/

[Eocosa]

I personally am a little disappointed in GW for this, which is a shame because they have been making consistently great moves in my book.

I AM glad they are quicker to get changes out and handling things, on that they have my approval. I also can understand a nerf of some sorts was headed towards KO (really think it should've been limiting khemist buff she personally). I can see the reduced range or if they did a price increase. 

All of those would've been typical "well the meta changes" type changes which we all have to roll with. However, where I am disappointed is them rendering a load out completely illegal.

To flop to a 40k analogy it's one thing to nerf, say lascannons, but another entirely to say that devestator squads could ONLY contain one of each heavy weapon. Now it went from "ohh well my unit is slightly less effective", to "I either have to spend more $$$ or I cannot use what I have already bought/painted/assembled".

For the cutting edge tournaments players, yea you will always have to keep buying/changing to stay on top. This change hit players of all level so by simply making a unit many have assembled unfieldable.

That just worries me as it seems a slippery slope to make people of ALL levels have to buy units even when they shouldn't simply to play.

An extreme though somewhat similar example would be if thundertusks can only be deployed as the animal itself, so buy a new one or rip apart your current model to remove the ogre riding it. As opposed to the price went up 50points to account for the ogres attacks, for example. These sort of choices just rub me the wrong way.

[Thomas Lyons]

5 minutes ago, Eocosa said:

To flop to a 40k analogy it's one thing to nerf, say lascannons, but another entirely to say that devestator squads could ONLY contain one of each heavy weapon. Now it went from "ohh well my unit is slightly less effective", to "I either have to spend more $$$ or I cannot use what I have already bought/painted/assembled".

Maybe a more appropriate AOS analogy would be to say that SCE Paladin units must be mixed from here on out and players may only have 1 Lighting Hammer, 1 Stormstrike Glaive, 1 Thunderaxe, and 1 Starsoul mace per 5 Paladins.  Alternatively, any number of Paladins may be equipped with a Warhammer (see Liberator warscroll) :-/  

[GlanceOnASix]

-Personally removed for sass-

[GlanceOnASix]

Who wants to bet Arkanauts have to have mixed weapons now too because they don't sell what they allowed in the box...

[Thomas Lyons]

3 minutes ago, GlanceOnASix said:

Who wants to bet Arkanauts have to have mixed weapons now too because they don't sell what they allowed in the box...

Not yet.  Only the Thunderer scroll was changed in GHB2017.  They'll probably wait till GHB2018 to break the Company units as well.

[Naflem]

I notice you need to field a full unit to run any special weapons in skirmish now.

 

And surely that 12 inch range in a misprint?  It's right under a 12, they're abjectly worse that the cannons now without having anything that is different.  

 

[Gaz Taylor]

+++ Mod Hat On +++

 

52 minutes ago, GlanceOnASix said:

Man this really annoys me... I built my models off what their scroll said, I converted, and built models I like, painted them, and now they are all bloody illegal... guuh I just want to curse...

@GlanceOnASix - Heres a friendly warning. We don't want to see this sort of post on the board. I totally get that you are annoyed but we want to see some good structured discussion about this, not a knee ****** reaction.

I'm really proud of what is happening in this thread and I want to continue to do so. So please put some more thought into your replies  

[GlanceOnASix]

1 hour ago, Gaz Taylor said:

+++ Mod Hat On +++

 

@GlanceOnASix - Heres a friendly warning.

You are absolutely right, sorry for the gut reaction.

[GlanceOnASix]

I will say the strongest thing I can think of with the new unit is the fumigator -1 attack 'field' it gives potentially a decent 'frontline' shooting unit.  With a couple of fumigators you can really cut down on any unit that has a multiattack profile, and it could potentially give a 'chaff-ish' sort of unit where we may not have had one besides the boats before.  especially if 2 of them stack in one unit.  A unit of 10, with 2 fum's spread 4 inches apart in the front, with perhaps a kemist in the middle of the squad (Buffing something else at this point), you could pretty easily cover most models in at least a -2 to -3 attack bubble.

[Warboss Gorbolg]

I feel for people that invested a lot into fielding a single weapon but I realized as soon as it was revealed that GW was regularly going to update the GHBK, that chasing heavy skews was risky.  Understand that this is a little different but I think we should assume that "obvious choices" in AOS are likely to be dealt with MUCH faster than in the world that was.

I'm actually really excited about this as it encourages "balanced" collecting over the medium and long term.

[dakagrim]

first off i feel bad for you folks who put the monney and hard work in them.

for the rest i dont have anny smart contributions to make but this got me wondering about the skaven stromfiends. wil skaven players see the same as you can equip whole units the same now. would seem only fair to me but thats just me.

sorry if this is off topic. pls remove if so

[Naflem]

2 hours ago, Naflem said:

I notice you need to field a full unit to run any special weapons in skirmish now.

 

And surely that 12 inch range is a misprint?  It's right under a 12, they're abjectly worse that the cannons now without having anything that is different.  

 

Of course I guess since you can only have one cannon now I guess having another option that is abjectly worse doesn't matter as much as if you could have, say, two cannons.  Well, I wonder if I'll be able to chop all my irondrake plus extra scenery mortars back to something normal now .  I really am irked, and I think somewhat fairly, because people would clearly have spent money/time/whatever to model these things as single weapons which should have been anticipated if one kept the khemist rules in mind.  I only went through three boxes I suppose... there was a lot of time spent greenstuff modeling cannons over rifles for me and that kind of thing... there's definitely people who did more.  We seem to be a long way from the ethos from where AOS started with "square bases, round bases, use whatever, just play a game with your beautiful models you've been collectign" to the "that way we set the rules up for you to build your army four months ago?  Never-mind, you can't do that anymore."  

[Thomas Lyons]

2 hours ago, Naflem said:

Of course I guess since you can only have one cannon now I guess having another option that is abjectly worse doesn't matter as much as if you could have, say, two cannons.  Well, I wonder if I'll be able to chop all my irondrake plus extra scenery mortars back to something normal now .  I really am irked, and I think somewhat fairly, because people would clearly have spent money/time/whatever to model these things as single weapons which should have been anticipated if one kept the khemist rules in mind.  I only went through three boxes I suppose... there was a lot of time spent greenstuff modeling cannons over rifles for me and that kind of thing... there's definitely people who did more.  We seem to be a long way from the ethos from where AOS started with "square bases, round bases, use whatever, just play a game with your beautiful models you've been collectign" to the "that way we set the rules up for you to build your army four months ago?  Never-mind, you can't do that anymore."  

For the record, the new warscroll does have an ability that triggers off a Mortar wound.  So even though its stat line is lackluster, a wound from it would let you reroll your number of attacks on a Deck Sweeper.

All of that said, it is going to be a HUGE time sink to resolve all of the ranged attacks from the new Thunderer unit given that everything has a different profile, with ranges that needed to be measured from every model, and different values for hitting and wounds, with some special rerolls based on whether you hit with a prior attack...it is going to be a mess.

[ledha]

I actually have trouble to understand how people are surprised.

The box show 5 guys with différent weapon loadout. The background describe them as units bringing lot of mixed weapon on the Battlefield. Same for the devs description of the unit. The box give only one weapon of each. Everyone instantly Saw that having 5 Time the same weapon was absolutely broken, anti-fluff and impossible without heavy conversion.

 

It was destined to be corrected one day or another but some people still rushed it. I find it more funny than anything.

[Thomas Lyons]

6 minutes ago, ledha said:

I actually have trouble to understand how people are surprised.

The box show 5 guys with différent weapon loadout. The background describe them as units bringing lot of mixed weapon on the Battlefield. Same for the devs description of the unit. The box give only one weapon of each. Everyone instantly Saw that having 5 Time the same weapon was absolutely broken, anti-fluff and impossible without heavy conversion.

 

It was destined to be corrected one day or another but some people still rushed it. I find it more funny than anything.

We just assumed that when GW printed the rules we could trust that its what they intended I guess.  

[polarbear]

It is a touchy subject.

The rules clearly allow such things. They clearly allow many things like that, such as stacking the same buff.

One of my only real gripes with GW is the lack of clarity in their writing. 

Personally, I always lean to not pushing the rules even if they are written in a way that I can, such as with Stormfiends. But while one can consider it cheesy to do that, at the same time it takes a lot of hobby work to make such a thing happen, which isn't cheesy at all and something to congratulate.

So I can't look down upon someone for following the rules as written even if I might not do the same thing. 

Ultimately, these issues can be solved and prevented by better communication, both in the original writing and in follow-ups so people know changes are coming and what is actually intended.

[DantePQ]

3 hours ago, ledha said:

I actually have trouble to understand how people are surprised.

The box show 5 guys with différent weapon loadout. The background describe them as units bringing lot of mixed weapon on the Battlefield. Same for the devs description of the unit. The box give only one weapon of each. Everyone instantly Saw that having 5 Time the same weapon was absolutely broken, anti-fluff and impossible without heavy conversion.

 

It was destined to be corrected one day or another but some people still rushed it. I find it more funny than anything.

Second on that, It was always funny for me how people wanted to abuse the rules to extreme and then complain that it is not allowed any more. Reminds of Wave Serpents spam and then Windriders spam in 40k, back in a day my friend used to field like 7-8 Serpents with 5 Dire Avengers it was fun, and then he was left with useless Serpents. 

[stato]

41 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

Second on that, It was always funny for me how people wanted to abuse the rules to extreme and then complain that it is not allowed any more. Reminds of Wave Serpents spam and then Windriders spam in 40k, back in a day my friend used to field like 7-8 Serpents with 5 Dire Avengers it was fun, and then he was left with useless Serpents. 

The point is they have never done it this way before. Plenty of other units have this approach to building (stormfiends pointed out above) that have not been removed. I don't think anyone did not expect a nerf, but they way it has been done impacts modelling and purchases people have made. A change to the weapon profiles, fair, a change to what you can model, difficult to understand.