The Great Gnaw- Skaven release?

[Rogue Explorator]

31 minutes ago, Jator said:

I step out of my lurking because I'm surprised no one has brought this up yet: We do know how the new skavens will look (and there are "small arms fire"):

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I do not think so, the only gun carrying one is likely a Stormfiend. The one in front is very close to the Morghast, so we can see he is way to big for a regular skaven. The ones a bit back might be regular skaven (Stormfiends do not wear shields) but those do not have firearms.

 

Also, the days of "only art for existing miniatures" are over, GW is once again giving more creative license. So just because we see something in the art we do not know, does not mean it is an upcoming model. In fact, in the recent years there was exactly one case I can remember of an unreleased model featuring in artwork. That was Mortarion in the 8th edition 40k rulebook. And he had been (blurrily) leaked before and that same picture featured some stuff people where sure would be new miniatures that turned out not to be. So even if those are supposed to be a Stormfiend and some Clanrats or Stormvermin, experience tells us these are unlikely to showcase an upcoming release.

[Kugane]

On 19-4-2018 at 12:29 PM, MightyMetro said:

 

Personally, Id rather that Pestilens maintained their damaging aura / negative synergies.  They are a clan of outsiders for this reason. They would quite happily infect other clans while serving in a larger warhost.  This is also a issue for nurgle  units in a mixed chaos army.

In these situations, battalions  can be a great way to introduce new depths to gameplay.  Players are rewarded in someway for dealing with specific synergies, whether they are positve or negative.  Some battalions could help units become more effective.  Others could help remove some negative synergies.  As an example, Emissaries of the Eldritch Council ability for the elves in Spire of Dawn  allows keyword sharing.

I want to see what happens when rival mini factions work together. Especially, our back stabbing rats

Pestilens did get their battletome already, so maybe they can be left out of the equation.

[Nikobot]

5 hours ago, Kugane said:

Pestilens did get their battletome already, so maybe they can be left out of the equation.

The pestilens battle tome is nothing more than the compendium entries with an additional plague priest kit-out and a few battalions.. oh and they changed the verminlords bravery!

I considered it more a slap in the face than a battle tome

[Kyriakin]

Pestilens are in a good place though, IMHO.

They are decent - without being ultra competitive and at risk of a nerf - and with many unique mechanics. In fact, it has been mentioned many times that tournament-level opponents are often surprised by how many crazy synergies they have and how destructive Plague Monks can be. The fact that they are very complex, fairly rare and only really understood by Pestilens players is something that they have massively in their favour on the tabletop.

Derpy faces aside, even the old model range hold up pretty well, IMHO with it being mostly cloaks - which means no "dated" anatomical features are exposed - and a load of rotten wood. In addition, the Corrupter also provides a more dynamic and modern centrepiece.

[Kugane]

3 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

Pestilens are in a good place though, IMHO.

They are decent - without being ultra competitive and at risk of a nerf - and with many unique mechanics. In fact, it has been mentioned many times that tournament-level opponents are often surprised by how many crazy synergies they have and how destructive Plague Monks can be. The fact that they are very complex, fairly rare and only really understood by Pestilens players is something that they have massively in their favour on the tabletop.

Derpy faces aside, even the old model range hold up pretty well, IMHO with it being mostly cloaks - which means no "dated" anatomical features are exposed - and a load of rotten wood. In addition, the Corrupter also provides a more dynamic and modern centrepiece.

I would agree somewhat if the the cloaks were actually decent sculpts at least. They just don't look like GW quality to me :(. Even older models like the old skaven warlord has a nicer cloak. I have similar issues with acolytes though.

[hughwyeth]

Haven't seen it mentioned here- the Skaven are featured heavily in the new Idoneth battletome. Doesn't mean anything in and of itself, but it's good to see Archaon use them as a primary force to attack the Idoneth. They dig tunnels under the cities (which are underwater) and use dead carcasses of great sea animals which they seal to be water tight to attack these cities!

[hughwyeth]

7 hours ago, Nikobot said:

The pestilens battle tome is nothing more than the compendium entries with an additional plague priest kit-out and a few battalions.. oh and they changed the verminlords bravery!

I considered it more a slap in the face than a battle tome

I got it recently without realising there are no artefacts, extra prayers or command traits. At least we get those in GH17, but it is the worse battletome by far and, as with all skaven, Pestilens have far too few models to make them an interesting force to field without allying in some stuff. 

[Nikobot]

11 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

Pestilens are in a good place though, IMHO.

They are decent - without being ultra competitive and at risk of a nerf - and with many unique mechanics. In fact, it has been mentioned many times that tournament-level opponents are often surprised by how many crazy synergies they have and how destructive Plague Monks can be. The fact that they are very complex, fairly rare and only really understood by Pestilens players is something that they have massively in their favour on the tabletop.

Derpy faces aside, even the old model range hold up pretty well, IMHO with it being mostly cloaks - which means no "dated" anatomical features are exposed - and a load of rotten wood. In addition, the Corrupter also provides a more dynamic and modern centrepiece.

As you have pointed out, I think they have shock factor going in their favour and do surprise some opponents.

They do have some nice synergies but it takes a good effort for it to all come together and I don't like the wording of their great plagues e.g. choose nearest hero with 13"... rather than choose a hero within 13". I have found that quite restrictive.

Agree, they are decent, but aren't going to place well at tournaments (generally speaking)

I love their flavour and theme and hope to see Pestilens supported in its own right.

For me, their good models include plague monks, corruptor, priest (new), plague claw, furnace
and bad models include censer bearers

Take them down the path of DoK and it wouldn't take much to get them fully functional as a standalone battletome.

[Nikobot]

5 hours ago, hughwyeth said:

Haven't seen it mentioned here- the Skaven are featured heavily in the new Idoneth battletome. Doesn't mean anything in and of itself, but it's good to see Archaon use them as a primary force to attack the Idoneth. They dig tunnels under the cities (which are underwater) and use dead carcasses of great sea animals which they seal to be water tight to attack these cities!

Don't forget Skaven got their own story in Malign Portents, but quite a few races did.

Did love the hearing about all their new wacky plans for destroying their enemies... tunneling beneath oceans, dead giant sea animal submarines, the rift tunnels from MP, new giant Moulder beasts. Seriously, leave these guys alone for too long and they'll find a way to blow up the Mortal Realms too

[Kirjava13]

Ok chaps, new brief: if you were to be responsible for Daughters of Khaine-ing Pestilens, what would you do? What sort of new units do they need? You are limited to two new unit kits and one new big kit. Aaaand go!

[Tittliewinks22]

28 minutes ago, Kirjava13 said:

Ok chaps, new brief: if you were to be responsible for Daughters of Khaine-ing Pestilens, what would you do? What sort of new units do they need? You are limited to two new unit kits and one new big kit. Aaaand go!

Don't think they need a new big kit, they have the Furnace and Verminlord as centerpieces already.

[Jamopower]

And the catapult. They really wouldn't need much. Plague censer bearers could be a new dual kit with something new (plague wind slingers for example). Then a faster unit like some cavalry sized mutant rats witha gain a dual kit. Then some characters and they would be set. Eshin, Moulder and Skryre are more or less in the same situation, with Eshin needing more than the rest as the models are bit dated and don't have much of a variation.

[Rogue Explorator]

1 hour ago, Kirjava13 said:

Ok chaps, new brief: if you were to be responsible for Daughters of Khaine-ing Pestilens, what would you do? What sort of new units do they need? You are limited to two new unit kits and one new big kit. Aaaand go!

That is actually a tough one. Not to many directions to go into, without barging into the territory of the other Clans or Nurgle.

 

My stab:

-Censer bearers just do not cut it as the lone representative of the cults zealots anymore, though I would not touch the unit itself. I think I would add a dual kit that can build two different new offensive elite units build on their look. So we have got foaming at the mouth robed skaven that use ABC warfare. Make one of them ranged distributors of plague, somewhere between the plagueclaw and good old poison wind globadiers. So, slingers that use toxic filth as amunition (poisening themselves doing it, of course). For the other build, why not a keyword "priest" unit, we have mage units, but noth that one yet. Pestilens Akolytes with no super special equipment and bad staying power, but a buff aura and the ability to cast prayers. Maybe allow like 1 in 5 a plague censer and then people can build units of censer bearers from enough kits, even though that is not "official".

-Second kit needs to be an armored unit. Speaking relatively here, Pestilens is and should stay a glass jaw army, but most armies have units that break out of their factions limitations a bit. I am thinking a mixture of ceremonial honor guard and knights templar. Lots of banners, gongs and icons, propably more concerned with looking sharp and displaying the glory of the horned rat than being good at fighting. Still, the heaviest armoured and best combat trained pestilens skaven (though also much less fervent). Could hide some nasty surprise weapons.

-I agree with others, Pestilens do not really need another single big centerpiece, so I am cheating and saying the big kit is like Pusgoyle or Dracothian guard. So a two model kit with minis rather big for a unit. Skaven cavaly feels wrong and pedestrian (hurrhurr) to me, particularly in pestilens, that should be Moulder. I am thinking rickety mini-plague furnace carts that can be equiped a number of ways. Basic one could be a suicide unit that bombs itself on reaching the enemy lines. Alt-builds could be smaller plague artillery and some more heroes. I really like the idea of a master infector that rides on a cart overburdened with caged plaguerats, scrolls and a bubbling cauldron.

 

All this would keep Pestilens in the same playstyle, but with a more diverse ranged game to soften up (and infect) the opposition and a unit suited to sitting in the backfield and making the artillery a bit less vulnerable.

 

 

More than anything I think pestilens could use a lore of prayers to benefit from their many priests though.

 

Maybe the upcoming magic supplement will be mercyful enough to provide spell and prayer lores to mage and priest based factions?

[Nikobot]

This was my take, posted in another thread about future battle tomes. 

Dual kit for the plague monstrosity/blessed brother and same multikit approach with the characters. 

 

They are never going to be a shooting or magic army, so they are going to have to get nastier in melee or cheaper, probably supported by lots of prayers.

Clan Pestilens

• Verminlord Corruptor - OK'ish, but a lot of the time doesn't get the job done. I'd recommend a combat buff as they are currently rubbish and give them a points increase. Change Plaguemaster ability so it does MW's on 6+ to hit and plague reapers do 2 damage, -1 rend. Improve profile spell a bit and give them indiscriminate contagion spell (or 1 of them) or 1 spell and access to prayers/blessings.
• Plague Lord (NEW) - Warrior priest Lord, command ability, buffing ability for monks, chooses a prayer, casts 1 prayer
• Arch Priest (NEW) - Better Plague Priest (Lord), 1 profile prayer, chooses 1 prayer and 1 blessing. Cast 2 prayers or blessings, command ability
• Censer Zealot (NEW) - Censer hero, buffing ability for censer bearers
• Plague Abbot (NEW) - Battle standard bearer/warrior, ranged buffing
• Plague Rector (NEW) - Plague engine of war expert, buffs Plagueclaw, furnace etc
• Plague Priest - add command ability, profile prayer, chooses a prayer. Casts 1 prayer
• Plague Monks - ok as is
• Plague Shrine (NEW) - slow moving shrine, big pot of the foulest diseases that creates more fumes, diseases, prayers and buffs. Think smaller, less mobile Cauldron of blood. Profile prayer, Chooses a prayer and blessing. Casts 2 prayer/blessings.
• Plague Monstrosities (NEW) - Monks that are so diseased and swollen, larger and tougher beserkers, 40mm bases, 3W, think blightkings
• Blessed Brothers (NEW) - Monks that are so infected and contagious their bodies are sacs of pestilence and their minds have rotted leaving them insane. They are taken into battle like fanatics and released from monk units into the enemy where they go beserk before "detonating" into a shower of contagion.
• Plague Censer Bearers - Once one of the scariest units in WHFB, need a combat buff and rethink. Hero phase fumes just dont work for a unit with size 5-10, no armor, needs to be beginning of combat phase
• Plague Censer Throwers - Part of a new model kit with Plague censer bearers. These guys are not combat oriented, but hurl plague monks short distances, think Skryre Acolytes and their poison wind.
• Plague Furnace - Needs to do more combat damage, rethink fumes as above, profile prayer, chooses a prayer and blessing. Casts 2 prayers or blessings per phase.
• Plagueclaw Catapult - fine as is, could be cheaper
• Army wide 6+ ward save + buffs, think Daughters of Khaine. Plague monks were meant to be the toughest Skaven. Naked 1w troops ain't tough, sad.
• Prayers list/lore (6 total) - can be taken by priests in addition to profile prayers
• Blessings list/lore (6 total) - Better prayers, can be taken by select priests in addition to prayers and profile prayers. Mostly buffing friendly units with virulent diseases and lethal abilities to make them hit harder and survive longer.
• Priestly Magic Items (6 total)
• Standard Bearer Magic Items (3 total)
• Normal Magic Items (6 total)
• 4-5 Churches - Daughters of Khaine Temples that allow you to focus on an army style and stacking with battalions
• 6-8 Battalions - Rethink a few of the existing as they are too expensive and drag in too many points
• 2-3 Special Characters

[Skreech Verminking]

Well I would probably like to see some kind of rule which allows us to use verminus Modells as A part of the pestilence allegiance, since Clan Pestilens was known to bring in many Slaves and frenzied pest driven clanrats and Stormvermins.

and some kind of rule for plague monks which gives them a negative of 1 to the to wound roles made by enemy units against any pestilence model

after all it was ones stated that they are very hard to kill

as for a centerpiece or a big release, I would love to see some kind of Skrolk coming back, after all Nagash lost some souls?

 

[TheMuphinMan]

What's your thoughts on this as a command trait for Skaven allegiance
Prime Backstab Target - As this general falls, his underlings are whipped into a frenzy as their carefully laid plans for usurpation die alongside him. When a general with this command trait is slain, you do not need to take battleshock test for friendly skaven units until your next hero phase.

[Binabik15]

1 hour ago, Nikobot said:

This was my take, posted in another thread about future battle tomes. 

Dual kit for the plague monstrosity/blessed brother and same multikit approach with the characters. 

*snip*

 

I like your ideas, but I doubt Skaven will get as many kits as you've mentioned for Pestilens alone. I like the big guys best for a new unit, GW has gotten really good at plague-y and bloated body horror in plastic. I'd even take a box of Rat Ogres with a "diseased" alt built to share with Moulder if I had to, as long as Skaven get better medium sized gribblies. It's basically criminal that they sell the Rat Ogre kit while they have the IoB/Screaming Bell designs since a decade or so.

 

Additionally I'd like a really crazy plague rats swarm.  A blend if the Doom Wheel rats and the stacking goodness of the Nurglings, maybe. Or at least some bloated rats used as hand grenades by a new unit. Preferably a swarm, though. We didn't get a new one since forever.

[Kugane]

23 minutes ago, Binabik15 said:

 

I like your ideas, but I doubt Skaven will get as many kits as you've mentioned for Pestilens alone. I like the big guys best for a new unit, GW has gotten really good at plague-y and bloated body horror in plastic. I'd even take a box of Rat Ogres with a "diseased" alt built to share with Moulder if I had to, as long as Skaven get better medium sized gribblies. It's basically criminal that they sell the Rat Ogre kit while they have the IoB/Screaming Bell designs since a decade or so.

 

Additionally I'd like a really crazy plague rats swarm.  A blend if the Doom Wheel rats and the stacking goodness of the Nurglings, maybe. Or at least some bloated rats used as hand grenades by a new unit. Preferably a swarm, though. We didn't get a new one since forever.

Sometimes I think they just produced way too many of those old kits back in the day and they are just trying to sell them off now.

[Num]

Reading through the whole thread, we just all sound like a bunch of skavens plotting for the magnificent return of the Great Horned Rat and the dominion of the Skaven race over all factions of AoS.

I think Skavens got into our heads

[Skreech Verminking]

21 minutes ago, Num said:

Reading through the whole thread, we just all sound like a bunch of skavens plotting for the magnificent return of the Great Horned Rat and the dominion of the Skaven race over all factions of AoS.

I think Skavens got into our heads

Yeah but at least we have something to talk about ?

[Kirjava13]

I really like the idea of a new Rat Ogre kit that functions as a dual-build for some sort of plaguey Pestilens alternative. Pestilens already share a kit with Skryre, so why not again? Gives incentive for Skaven collectors to stray outside of their monoclan build. Also ta to @Rogue Explorator and everyone else who actually contributed, rather than just complaining about the parameters of the (silly and fun) task!

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Yeah but at least we have something to talk about ?

And believe me there will be a time we skaven(players) will bring Doom to all things, after all those new Aelf-things must die-Die?? and anybody else who underestimated us ????? 

[Nikobot]

13 hours ago, Binabik15 said:

I like your ideas, but I doubt Skaven will get as many kits as you've mentioned for Pestilens alone. I like the big guys best for a new unit, GW has gotten really good at plague-y and bloated body horror in plastic. I'd even take a box of Rat Ogres with a "diseased" alt built to share with Moulder if I had to, as long as Skaven get better medium sized gribblies. It's basically criminal that they sell the Rat Ogre kit while they have the IoB/Screaming Bell designs since a decade or so.

If they decide to grace them with their own battle tome then it could happen! If they don't, then you're right, I doubt it too.

Its not a big ask for their own battle tome :

• Censer bearers need a new kit, they are finecast, easy to make them DUAL-KIT with censer throwers
  This kit would also allow for the Censer Zealot hero build
• Blessed brothers and plague monstrosities a NEW DUAL-KIT
• Plague Shrine, NEW KIT, possibly could invent a DUAL out of it
• 2-3 character NEW KITS which could also be DUAL KITS to make 3-5 characters

If too much, they probably could lose the Shrine as they already have the large furnace.

Anyway its just ideas. But not a huge amount of new stuff required, within the scope of DoK and certainly less than ID.

Can only hope they get that much love. Fingers Crossed brothers!

 

[MightyMetro]

On 20/04/2018 at 9:22 PM, Rogue Explorator said:

Finally read the Kharadron Battletome and there is an interesting bit relevant to this thread. One of the shortstories is about Grundstock fighting very shooty Skaven. There is, I quote, "small arms fire". Though skaven always had pistols and rifles, these where always reserved for heroes and right now there are no skaven units with small arms firepower. What I am saying is, there is a precedent in AoS for shooty skaven units.

A Skaven gunline unit doesnt seem very fluffy, i prefer the specialist weapons teams. Of course, Skyre could produce the tech, but what self-respecting Warlord would be prepared to advance in front of it!  Too easy to get stab-shot in the back by ‘friendly’ fire.  Skavens should always be surging forward with the esteemed general leading from his honored position at the back!

As we are suggesting new units, how about a tunnelling or demolition unit that can manipulate the landscape somehow?  An underground explosion would create a crater that is hard to cross; it could cause a sink-hole to envelop and destroy a piece of scenery; or cause damage to nearby units, like the SC Knight-Heralder.

Im not sure whether this requires a unit, like the Knight-Heralder, or an summonable piece of landscape, like the Sylvaneth Wyldwood, which could help the rats manipulate how their opponents approach.

[Rogue Explorator]

54 minutes ago, MightyMetro said:

A Skaven gunline unit doesnt seem very fluffy, i prefer the specialist weapons teams. Of course, Skyre could produce the tech, but what self-respecting Warlord would be prepared to advance in front of it!  Too easy to get stab-shot in the back by ‘friendly’ fire.  Skavens should always be surging forward with the esteemed general leading from his honored position at the back!

As we are suggesting new units, how about a tunnelling or demolition unit that can manipulate the landscape somehow?  An underground explosion would create a crater that is hard to cross; it could cause a sink-hole to envelop and destroy a piece of scenery; or cause damage to nearby units, like the SC Knight-Heralder.

Im not sure whether this requires a unit, like the Knight-Heralder, or an summonable piece of landscape, like the Sylvaneth Wyldwood, which could help the rats manipulate how their opponents approach.

Gunline is a very relative term, I hardly see units of skaven riflefighters blowing the enemy of the board, more like softening them up as much as possible before the inevitable clash.

And of course, no warlord (or other skaven leader, unlikely that these would be Verminus) would lead an army like that from the front. They would be safely tucked in within their command burrows (just as WW1 Generals where, to stick with the theme), with some strategic gun emplacements between them and the battle front (placed as much to mow down any skaven trying to flee as to keep the enemy out). Now, those upitty upstart skaven of the middle command, they can do the leading from the front, yes-yes? Pity if they catch a bullet in the back, but that is just unfortunate collateral.

This idea is all about the theme of WW1 brutal and futile trench battles and skaven are just so suited to doing it, they have the cynical disregard for their own troops lives, the poison gas and gasmasks, the tendency for digging, the farsqueakers to make command stands plausible and the capability to produce guns, including rapid fire and artillery weapons. Though I think  the warlocks of the Clans Skryre would consider mass producing rifles far to pedestrian (edit: besides: Skaven are far to cheap to equip their battleline with such expensive weapons). Instead I would see these equipped with cheap knockoffs of a proper warplock rifle produced by lesser clans.

 

I love your idea of a placeable gnawhole terrain piece. It fits in perfectly with how GW has been doing things lately and what skaven are. With aetheric Vortices now a thing coming with the magic supplement, I see shaping the battlefield becoming even more of a thing. I think it will mostly be a magic thing, it neatly solves the issue of needing to make magic bigger and more meaningful, while wanting to avoid it just deleting units or being overpowered (as it could be in WHFB). But it is also something I see skaven in general excelling in.