Koala

BoC player here. So do not tell me about lazy rules. If someone gave me a choice between LrL/Tzeentch level of complexity or the new Vampires i would take the vampires any time. I guess it is a personal choice and it seems different battletomes are clearly written with different design philosophies, so we DO have a choice. But the anger shown by some people here seems to be more about the expectation of "new is always better and has more bonus rules" than the general Design. ( Which is funny as usually it is about new rules being too strong and"GW just wants to sell the new models") I personally DO like the direction they are taking. But even if you do not maybe hold your judgement untill you have played with them... or at least have seen the actual rules

I am also in line with most posts here: MW are fine to prevent certain unwanted tactics AND offer a fast and simple way to have nice "Bonus" rules. (Ideally those already have a lot of rules text and not that big of an impact, so no need to waste time rolling even more dice) But when they become a main tactic of the game there is something wrong.

So as someone who has not read the book: does anything surprising happen? Anything that actually changes anything? Because that was what surprised (and exited) me about Morathi. Noone saw "she is now a god but shizo". Or the newborn. A previously named city changed ownership. (The map changed!) And this is represented in new rules for her. (And a sub-faction, also quite cool). But as far as i can tell nothing like that happens here. Sure, the necroquake is done, nagash destroyed... but is he really? I mean he will be back. That is why the undead are so beloved as villians... You can utterly defeat them and they are still "there" ( he will reform whenever he is needed both lore wise and on the tabletop). Considering everything is just made up and we have no numbers "armies were destroyed" is also not of permanent value. We will just see more deus-ex-machina up whenever needed. I confess i DO believe nagash weakened is the best outcome for any future plot lines to develope... But is anything about that already developed? I would love a shattered nagash ( with weaker rules and cost, also more reasonable to have a "shard of nagash" lead an army. And more options for death to have character). Newly aroused inhabitants of the realm of death, rising Up against their undead Masters? Yes! But nothing like that happens. These are all "tbd". As far as i can see it the "big map" did not change at all. And that is a bit underwhelming. Same as the 40k cadians, who were defeated but continue to be "the" Guard Force, i fear avacuum where fluff changed but actually no, it did not. This does not bode well for Allarielle and Belakor. (Both of which i am far more interested than this book)

Obviously everyone wants more stuff for their factions. As do i So : which factions i do NOT collect deserve an overhaul? (Ignoring Vampires) I think it would indeed be skaven or classic orks/new orruk variation. Skaven would be an awesome starter Army: there is just so much creative range in the fluff and models already. AND we could have funny models again! ( No, gobbos, noone has forgotten about you!) Orks is just an empty Design space right now: orruk are a small and not too developed new faction, "old" orks are gone and wild orks... Old. There are other "old" factions out there but they honestly are either not going to happen (CoS, the brayherd part of BoC) or too specific (Ogres, the Monster half of BoC).

I would like to add that, with the unfortunate exception of the Slaangors, the actual stats are solid. No riddiculous rules/interactions and no "this will never be healthy for the game, why does this even exist?" rules like the old loci. GW has shown they will freely adjust Point Costs, but they do not want to change warscrolls unless it is absolutely needed. So it should be fine in the long run (again, except for Slaangors, who have absolutely no Designes place in the battletome. Shame indeed).

Ah man, now i have to go back and read his small but fun fluff. Aekold Helbrass, the weirdest of the weird old Chaos champions. 0% chance it is him. Would 100% love to see him, though.

This discussion is going in circles. AoS wanted to be accesssible and easy to play, so it has (upond other things) rather simple ranged combat rules and the random turn order to "spice things Up". Which was fine, i guess, as long as the game was always decided in the combat Phase ( where both players activate, so turn order does not matter too much). AoS 2 already did tone down casting a lot and added a few negatives to ranged combat as well. But we DO see a lot more ranged Units, lately. I mean Slaanesh just got archers. So you know how Chaos players have been asking for archers? Tzeentch Daemons ( which i play myself and are absolutely devastating when shooting and defensive in combat) and KO have been clearly designed to be mainly shooting, other new battletomes have featured stronger shooting as well. So IMHO wee either A) need more complex/equal ranged combat rules. Might be Cover ( do not be tricked: 40k cover is also mostly "something really big to hide behind.. oops, can still be shot at"), might be modifiers, might be other things. B) have to give up double turn ( because , as has already been mentioned several Times: beeing shot at twice in a row is just not a fun feeling. And that kind of emotional design matters!) or C) "Go Back" on the importance of ranged combat. As i do not realistically See C happening, would really like to keep AoS rules fun and simple and actually find the double turn fun most of the time... i am #sad about the whole situation. Maybe we will see it solved the "GW" way, where ranged units see an increase in points and there are new releases featuring strong defence against ranged weapons. After all currently a lot of shields only work against melee... Just think what would happen if SE shields got +2 against ranged. Instant melee Meta

Yeah, i had the same Idea. Turns out it does not really help reducing ranged power at all. Because now the melee army is also getting shot at on its own turn, even when they are noh yet in combat xD. Riddiculous board control! It is an interesting Idea, however The current - simple - rules for ranged combat only work if shooting is not the focus of the game. With KO, DoT, LRL (and to an extend Seraphon) getting these strong range focused battletomes we need deeper rules for ranged attacks. Because the Battletomes will not go away. It is that simple ( and yes, i both love DoT flamers AND believe it was wrong to give them this much ranged power).

Thank you! ( Both to the people participating and SirSalabean) Can we please adress the elephant in the Room: Stormcasts? For an army that has been both pushed by GW AND blessed with a lot of great and easy to play/paint models they seem to be a tad underrepresented. It might be a statistical anomaly, though. Fyreslayers are no surprise. I keep hearing they sell really badly. Which can of course become a self fulfilling prophecy.. sell badly => no new models => sell even worse.. but that is another debate.

I die Not want to be that Guy but this is going wildly offtopic. The original question was about when we feel the big losses should Happen. Which i find quite a smart question considering the comments. Because it does not Matter if you feel list building should decide the game or not, If you want to play cutthroat competative or funny narrative. The WHEN question still does apply. And Not Just for balance reasons. Eg Early losses speed up the later turns while later losses mean the game ends with a big bang.

Well i feel the biggest issue is turn one deaths. When you basically just set up the model and then remove it again wirhout having done anything with it. Just feels bad, man. After that i am happy with multiple ways the game might work. Two tanky armies just getting stuck in each other for several Turns? Glas canons obliterating each other in one phase? Actual tactical play with the main forces avoiding each other? Whatever rocks your boat. But - and i can not stress this enough - noone likes loosing painfully painted models without having done anything with them. So Turn1 should definitely have the lowest amount of losses.

The Hobby is more than just a few tournament players. Every Sales/retail contact i have Said "fyreslayers underperformed". I trust their word.

I am curious why so many ppl here assume the archers might get a mortal wound mechanic. From the fluff talk i expect some kind of movement/debuff thing. Agreed on the Slaangors, i fear they will be "awesome in theory but to fragile in practice", as are so many comparable Units.J JustImagine if "making pacts at the fane" was THE major faction bonus. Not exploding 6s or giving ASL . Some huge buffs but risky. Like "have to do x untill your next Hero Phase or the hero dies". Greed! Pride! Spite ( by the enemy who ofc wants to deny you that) Man, that would be interesting!

Well, the experience teaches that in AoS 2.0 "new ist always better". So i am less concerned with the viabity of the Army as a whole than the inner balance within the Battletome. The current one is horrible at that.

One of the many advantages of both playing AoS and 40k is to see the complaints on both sides ( a friend and long time hobbyist just recently mused "Warhammer can not exist without whining. Whining is half the hobby!") The 40k crowd is seriously jealous of the interesting and creative new models and (whole new) armies AoS gets. "Everything we get is rules bloat, a few resculpts of old characters and lots of marines". Imho: 40k gets more stuff overall, but the AoS stuff is on average more inspired and fun! So i would say clear advantage AoS.

I must say i share the feeling the OP expresses. At least for me double turn is not the culpit. It is indeed clear powercreep and the actual army Design (shooty and first Strike) . Double turns give one player the Initiative, but (as long as you play the "old" way, eg big melee clashes all over the board) it actually matters less than you think. Alternating activations save the day! But double turn against a full ranged Army Like Khaladon or Tzeentch? Oof. When i got into AoS there was hardly any powerfull ranged combat. A few warmachines. So what? Even the feared Skyfires were more scary in CC than their OP ranged attack. That changed. Now everyone needs to be scary at range. And this also means there is a bigger chance for a game decided by a double turn ( or even who went first!) The feared Slaanesh lists? Actually just Keepers, because they were, at the time, the ultimative Alpha strike. Their Alpha strike capabilities were nerfed and lo: no more complaints. Dont get me wrong: the AoS Meta is quite diverse, most factions can pull some mean "OP" tricks and win with them. 40k is clearly worse off. But i feel it does move into the wrong direction. And REALLY , it is not just about some abstract/statistical balance: Alpha strike just feels bad for the receiving Player.

1.) Yes. 2.) Paired Blades use the same profile as single Blades - but there is a Bonus, mentioned on the warscroll (probably rerolls?) So double Hit 3.) I guess... Or you could use bitz from the actual acolytes set to boost the models... There are alot of weapon Options in there.

Well, the biggest disadvantage of StD is obviously all the whining here... Both Maggotkin and Beasts of Chaos have clearly worse Tournament ratings but their players seem to be more positive. When starting the hobby you should never be TOO concerned with the current power builds. Rules change and the next "meta dominating list, so broken" is just around the corner. In friendly games this does not matter much anyway, AoS is rather balanced. Follow the RULE OF COOL. A good looking model will always be exactly that. And fun to build/Paint too! That one unit you bought because everyone said it was awesome but you never got yourself to paint it? Not so much! So i would suggest the StD Start Collecting ( as it is a great start for both StD as well as Mortal Maggotkin and the models are just rad). Then you have a few games with them. And THEN you decide, what you want to add. Or just start with any other Start Collecting Box you fancy!

Although everything hast obviously been said already and this ist mostly people pushing their external ( political) Agenda: I really like what GW has clearly been doing for several years now. Slowly but without pathos expanding the range, but not forcing anything. So some magically reforged Hero Souls are Female. So that one Sigmar priest happens to be black ( in the promo picture). So the new Sorrorita repentiae do look more muscular, like warriors in rags. New Sc SlavesToDarkness has male and female head options. Noone looses anything ( except maybe their mind ). We even got dark skin colour... but i can also choose to paint everything kislev flesh so it stays in the aesthetics. Way to Go, GW!

Well, current bad reputation aside the DoTzeentch Battletome has mostly well designed and fun warscrolls. Just stay away from the broken sub-factions and try to not be extreme ( just magic/shooting leads to onesided Games... they either fail miserably or dominante). I do not think anyone will honestly call some Tzaangor / Skyfire / Hero list unfun to play. And most people i know have exactly that list as it used to be the only one that worked for Tzeentch

They can Cast on 2+ and cannot be dispelled... i can image a lot of (endless) spells to go with this!

I must say StD did not feel weak the few times i played them ( and i went for Oldschool Warriors+Knights+Heroes, so just the weak stuff according to some ppl here). BUT the whole battletome feels... Bland. There are really few exiting units/rules. The Marks do not Grant flavour. Just some bonus for the mathhammer. ( And the mathhammer is strong in this Army! ) The new units, while great sculpts, are pretty "meh" on the rules side. ( Also cultists are a lost chance. I honestly feel they should have replaced the barbarians with them instead of giving every single warband its own underwhelming warscroll)

I Had the same question. Apparently this is answered in the core rules (FAQ) which ist why they felt no need to explain it in the StD FAQ. The effect triggers only in the "original" Attack/throw, the additional Hit does not count as a 6 and is treated differently. So a 6 generates 2 Hits, one of which ist 2MW ( no more wound Roll) while the other one gets a to wound as usual. Still feel the wording suggest an either/or scenario, but this Interpretation seems to be fair so who am i to complain.

What a great Idea. Let me Beginn. General Comments: DoT - as with most Chaos armys - has an insane range of units to choose from. So it is entirely possible to meet Archaon supported by a horde of Beastmen and it all counts as "Tzeentch". For practical reasons i will only consider the units from the Battletome Disciples of Tzeentch and obvious additions. Strenghts: - Lots of Shooting (seriously!) - a Lot of spellcraft, many ways to deal MW - great synergies ( mostly deamon side) - many subfactions which offer strong boni - Access to both heavy infantery as well as fast units - Fate mechanic offers a unique way of forcing positive dice throws. - Summoning mechanic Weaknesses: - Army needs heavy synergies - if a piece goes missing scary becomes average. - synergies Split the Army apart - deamon or Arcanite/Mortal -deamons lack heavy CC hitters (horrors can tank quite well, though) - Arcanites are more well rounded but have less extreme Shooting/casting - most units have a specific weakness/counterplay - Summoning is mostly weak. - most heroes hit way below their weight class Things to watch out for: Horrors: damaging them "a bit" will only make them stronger. Hit them hard ( 16+ wounds, 13+with rend) or not at all! Fatemaster: not scary on his own but his "reroll To Hit within 9" " is an insane command ability. Also quite hard to kill. Flamers: 10 shots 18" 4+ / 3+ D3 Damage. 120pts. Yeah, they are the current boogeyman! Can improve their to hit several ways and get rend1 with a sub faction. A bit squishy and weak in CC but probably not enough. Oh and they have 9" move and fly. So be careful - they can probably T1 hit your guys and are decent at sniping characters! Gaunt Summoner on disc: This one is basically a gamble. If the Tzeentch Player can activate him before the enemy kills him ( 6hp, 6+) he gets a decent casting hero and 200pts of units for 260pts. Quite unlikely but If you ever see the chance to take him out / surround him before he summoned his unit: do it! Generally Check if the Aura conditions are met. There is a lot of "completely within 9"/12") going on and the Tzeentch player will want to build his personal death star. What to do against T1 Alpha Strike At 2k Points/changehost one of his units (flamers or a big infantery unit in cc) will probably be able to hit you whatever you do. But in most cases: remember the Flamer threat range of 9"move and 18" to shoot and remember to screen. Without Support DoT units are only half as dangerous as they seem so the dreaded T1/T2 Double Turn might be far more scary than the Alpha Strike!