Scurvydog

Great this was what I was missing and explains it. This is what I was expecting and have been playing with, but nice to see the raw and source, thank you.

Well consider that evocators have better bravery, movement, the same base weapon damage output, but are also wizards and deal an average 5 mortal wounds for 5 guys on top, this point difference is not that hard to understand. People talking about sequitors, while Liberators are the ones truly suffering, just look at the new chaos warrior warscroll, they are just better stronger liberators for the same points, which Squistors are as well, but they are only conditional battleline and costed differently. The big bases is also a disadvantage and with Sequitors out, it is hard to find the spot for Liberators, same for the paladins really, with the sacrosanct being more flexible, faster and having wizards, the warrior stormcasts should really have the heavy hitters or stronger armor. Just reducing points does not seem to be a fix here, as Liberators should really not be less than 100 for 5, they should be elite warriors after all, I'd rather see them more expensive but far stronger. The fix could be something like Liberators getting a 3+ save and count for 2 models each, which would really double down on a specific role in the army, which they would do best, bringing hard to remove model count on top of objectives and holding them, which sounds like the sort of stuff a Liberator would do. Paladins should simply hit harder, with the power creep there is no reason for them not have stronger weapons, attacks or a 3+ save to make them these walking fortresses compared to their caster counterparts. Judicators are sort of ok, but could do with at least a reduction to 140 pts for a lazy fix. Wishful thinking for sure, the stormcast tome really is one of the worst internally balanced GW books I have seen in modern times.

That would be a bizarre short list of changes. Keeping all the paladins so expensive makes no sense. Liberators and Judicators are rather bad and need help, but I guess they do not want to devalue Liberators as "cheap" even though they are just poor for their points. Dracolines cheaper but no decrease to the Dracoth riders? How can they even end at that and think "yea, thats about right", I don't get it.

This is the commentary in the Orruk book: Extra Hits: Several abilities allow BONESPLITTERZ units to score 2 hits instead of 1 on an unmodified hit roll of 6. If two or more such abilities apply at the same time, you score 1 extra hit for each ability. For example, if two such abilities applied to a unit, it would score 3 hits for each unmodified 6 (1 for the hit, plus 2 for the two abilities). If three such abilities applied to a unit, it would score 4 hits for each unmodified 6, and so on. That does make it sound intended that multiple effects can happen and/or stack. Another thing I am wondering is exploding hits combined with effects on for example 6s to hit. What happens for a model getting extra hits on a 6, but also for example dealing a mortal wound for each 6 to hit, does those extra hits count as 6s too, or just as "a regular hit". Effects resulting in the attack sequence ending also messes up some of these things, although I suspect it would just be the sequence for that single hit, while the extra generated hits are now treated as entirely separate. If there are more sources or insight into these types of mechanics I would love to see them, especially if there are references to rules, as there are some discussions going around in my gaming group concerning these things.

I apologize if this has been brought up, but I can't seem to find a reply to this questions, so if there is, please let me know. My questions concerns multiple effects triggering under the same conditions, like exploding hits or mortal wound effects. A specific example which I am wondering about currently is a Drakesworn Templar with a Stormlance who takes the Sword of Judgement. The Stormlance rules: If the unmodified hit roll for an attack made with a Stormlance that targets a MONSTER is 6, that attack inflicts D6 mortal wounds on the target and the attack sequence ends (do not make a wound or save roll). And the Sword of Judgements for reference: Pick one of the bearer’s melee weapons to be a Sword of Judgement. If the hit roll for an attack with that weapon against a HERO or MONSTER is 6+, that attack inflicts D6 mortal wounds and the attack sequence ends (do not make a wound or save roll). I have seen designer commentary before on similar things, such as multiple sources of exploding hits on 6s resulting in stacking hits, this is for example directly addressed as a commentary in the Orruk Warclans book for the bonesplitterz, with multiple sources providing exploding hits on 6s. Does this apply to the example above?

The Condemned battalion is overpriced and should drop by 30 pts really. Glaivewraith stalkers, the most pointless unit in the book, should also drop to 50 for 4 intead of 60. Mourngul probably af 20 pts drop. Chainghasts should also drop 10 pts, same for hexwraiths and a bunch of the heroes.

They actually seem pretty balanced I think, not auto takes, but have their uses, like battalions should be, which is nice to see instead of a SyllEsskan host issue, where GW has to ban their own rules from tournaments... I can see hexwraiths being a bit more popular, as their battalion absorbing hits for the general will allow for some more aggressive plays with the otherwise low wound count expensive heroes. The limitation still being for the general only is a bit sad, as they really shine with Glass Cannons like Kurdoss or Olynder, but they sort of "waste" the general tag, where ruler of the spirit hosts really would shine with the battalion. I could see them work with a Knight of Shrouds with an aggressive setup, with a unit of 10 hexwraiths and the knight running together, perhaps pendant of the fell wind to really boost their movement and ensure those charges and als possibly mortal wound by flying over something. This setup clashes a bit with the emerald host, as having 2 KoS is not really a good idea. The KoS and DH battalion is ok I think, it actually works well next to the other battalion, as a unit of 10 hexwraiths receiving some of those free +1 attacks would not be all that bad, putting them to 4 scythe attacks and 4 horse attacks each, which with mortal wounds on the scythes on 6s should bring some nasty shock attacks, although costly all in all. The emerald host is just the cherry on top, you are using over 300 points on battalions though, but maybe the additional artifacts and command points as well will make up for it. Putting that curse of -1 save on a behemoth general, like a Keeper, Mawkrusha or similar will also help quite a bit. The battalions helps a bit in improving some limitations and weaknesses, at a cost, which seems like a good spot for balance, Hexwraiths are a bit more likely to see play, you get the option for more aggressive Named character play and some more flexibility with command points and command abilities, that is alright I think.

This is a great tool, makes it much easier to get an accurate overview of more complicated units like stormcast concussors with riders getting 1 mortal wound in addition on 6 to hit, while the mount gets d6 damage instead of 1 on 6s to wound and this tool can handle that. Thank you for making this, great work.

I suspect this very thing will shift the crying from Mortek Guard to Nurgle warriors supported by shrines and demon princes in huge blobs. 100 pts per 5. Rerolls save for free when 10 or more in the unit. The warshrine of nurgle hands out +1 save and the 6++ save. The Demon prince command gives a nurgle std unit a buff until next hero phase, causing each hit roll of 6 against them to deal d3 mortal wounds back. The enemy will die long before these guys die. Imagine witch aelves attacing these guys, they will just explode themselves when they begin rolling dice.

An example list could look like this: Arkhan the Black, Mortarch of Sacrament (360)Liege-Kavalos (200)- General- Trait: Unsettling and Sinister- Artefact: Helm of the OrdainedMortisan Soulreaper (120)- Artefact: Baleful Blade20 x Mortek Guard (260)- Nadirite Blade and Shield20 x Mortek Guard (260)- Nadirite Blade and Shield20 x Mortek Guard (260)- Nadirite Blade and Shield5 x Kavalos Deathriders (180)- Nadirite Blade and ShieldGothizzar Harvester (200)Mortek Shield-corps (120)Nightmare Predator (40)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 108 Especially as Null Myriad this list will dominate magic pretty hard, with a battalion it will generate 5 discipline points baseline and also give a free shield wall per turn, which is just about as good as 2 more points per battle round, as you will probably use shield wall quite a lot with this list every turn. This makes it pretty efficient with discipline points, the battalion also allows the Liege to grab helm of the ordained for that 12" +1 hit bubble. The soulreaper fits right into the points to also get the nightmare predator for some potential mortal wound bombing of a hero. The Soulreaper can use whatever spell, but can march along with some mortek and also do so fighting with the blade and his sort of fighty attack profile unlike the other wizards. The Harvester hits hard and provides even more sustain, but you could also for example take a unit of immortis guards to babysit Arkhan a bit, as he is quite important for the entire army, keep him in range of the +1 hit bubble and Arkhan can also dish out quite a bit of damage, without fearing for his life if the guards keep up. It is a bit bland though with all those Mortek guards and people get sort of frustrated by them, even though it should be less so not running petrifex. If you wanted you could shuffle around for a Kavalos lance battalion instead, with less guards and at least a unit of riders more, which would increase mobility quite a bit and allow you to use some hit and run tactics instead of attrition.

Again like I just stated before. The two reroll stances brings their output into the pitiful range below 6 average damage, which is a good deal worse than even the universally scorned morghasts. Consider this, for all the reroll stances they will do LESS damage on average than Immortis guard and Morghasts who compete for the same spot in the army for the same point cost. So they are terrible outside precision and would never be used. If precision was only +1 rend, it would be even worse than rerolls. If precision was only +1 damage they would be at 8.9 now THIS seems to be the only happy middle ground to justify their place. They NEED a higher output to be picked instead of Morghasts for Immortis for the same points, and this would be roughly 2 more damage than the 2 other options, who instead have better mobility and/or defense. Now it still does not fix them, their output is worse than 10 mortek guard if they reroll soves. Their reroll stances are pointless and worse than any other option in the army for those points. This unit is terribly balanced and needs a warscroll change to work, as the 4 stance gimmick is pointless right now, and would still be with any nerfs, as nobody would ever take them.

All this is only a problem as petrifex. Take stalkers outside petrifex, compare them to a similar big guy unit for 200 points, kurnoth hunters. against 4+ saves Kurnoth with scythes dish out 7.2 damage and 1,5 mortal wound from stomping, so around 8-9 damage total. Stalkers in precision stance is 11.1 damage. So stalkers deal a bit more damage, they have 1 more move. In any of the other offensive stances they have a pitiful output of 5.9. If they choose reroll saves 4.4... Kurnoth hunters have 5 wounds each instead of 4. If they do not charge they can reroll saves too with no less damage output, only 1" pile in then, but 2" reach. In summary, anything but precision stance on Stalkers is grossly overcosted. If they did not have that, there would be 0 reason to ever take them. Precision stance AND the +1 save and possible +1 rend from Petrifex brings them over the top. Stalkers in any other legion and precision stance er balanced just fine for their points, if they did less damage, there would be no point to them next to even Morghasts for about the same points and 6.7 damage and 9" fly and either 5+ mortal wound save or 3d6 charges.

Ah yes I forgot that for a second. Nope he does not really care all that much

That or this is where the next realmslayer series picks up and Gotrekk absolutely spanking both gentlemen and sending them packing. Even in game, unless Archaon rolls double 6 to wound, Gotrekk would probably delete both of them of the table

While the new fluff does paint an impressive picture of Katakros, Archaon has outmatched and outsmarted Sigmar and the pantheon of gods before. Katakros might be able to get somewhere, but probably not long by himself, he after all only commands a fraction of the armies of Shyish and Nagash, and if it was so "easy" to take the allpoints, it would or should have happened much sooner. Of course anything can happen, maybe some other factions finds opportunity in this conflict to tip the scales. Perhaps even if he was backed up by other Mortarchs. At least Nagash is the only God who has managed to really put a hard focus on his middle management team. In forbidden power Lady Olynder send the celestand prime packing to release Katakros in the first place and it sounds like he is more potent than she is. There is a short story in the battletome where Katakros and his retinue is engaged by a Lord of Change, which kills his attendants which mere annoys him that he has to engage personally and with 1 swing decapitates the greater demon, so he certainly has some power to back up that codpiece. Archaon is on another level entirely than most... I have a feeling something will throw a wrench in the entire Soulwars soon, as narratively Nagash has not really achived anything yet from all of this other than more terror and death, but the soul stealing culprits are still going about their business as usual. Maybe some angry green follows will shake up the status quo soon, with a great big godbeast ram...

I have both played with and against them. I have a few 2000 point games with my own force now too. I will absolutely agree that they are in the absolute top tier of armies, maybe somewhere in the new top 5 even and rankings will depend on matchups. This only goes for Petrifex though, I think the army without that single legion would sit at a pretty happy middle ground, although then it would probably not be able to compete with the "top armies". Unfortunately all these top dogs create problems for many other armies, we have both some older books floating around, and some forces are clearly not on par with some other on a fundamental level. Now the problem with a new book is, should a new army be at the level of a pure Troggoth army? The game as a whole would probably be better if everyone were at that power level, and you could somehow get away with far more thematic lists, while still not being completely obliterated outside of a lot of luck against 50% of armies out there. My personal "fix" to not get everyone to hate playing my Reapers is to make a 3 loss petrifex rule for myself. Unless a lose 3 times in a row to someone, I will play another legion and try to keep the peace in the gaming group that way.

How should they change then? 4 of them is 280, charging in they actually have the exact same damage output as 4 ironguts for 220 without counting the pistol. They also have more movement, more wounds per point, a tribe dedicated to them basically and also the everwinter allegiance ability to possibly deal mortal wounds in the hero phase. When not charging they do indeed fall down to around 70% of the output of 4 ironguts, but is that not how it should be? They are faster, more durable and got possible mortal wound output in the hero phase, is that not sort of balanced? I would not call them completely... gutted. Also the hand weapons and Gargant hacker is basically identical in output against a 4+ save, better or worse saves will improve and reduce the value of the weapon loadouts respectively. It is more a question if you want to reflect mortal wounds or get 2" reach, which should not be completely discarded for its importance.

the sphinx is a 10 wound beasty for 100 pts, not really fighty but has a -2 bravery aura and in the hero phase you pick an enemy unit, hide a die and your opponent hides one with a number, reveal them, if they are not the same, the enemy strikes last until next hero phase. That is pretty good for 100 pts, it is super fast too. Varanguard circles is from the everchosen legion and the 7th circle you can choose gives varanguard +1 damage on the charge, they can also still choose to fight again once per battle built in their warscroll. On the charge, just by being in an army with archaon without any other buffs or even marks considered, that is around 2x15+ damage average vs 4+ saves, more or less obliterating whatever they ran into. In effect they can hurt as much on the charge as 2 mawkrushas or mangler squigs, for a 300 point unit.

Broken? perhaps not, but just looking at the Everchosen I can see some tasty stuff in Varanguard of the 7th circle getting +1 damage on the charge and also fighting twice. Getting the mindstealer sphinx into the mix would not be a bad idea, is it forces the enemy to strike last until the next battleround. Archaon himself and a chaos lord to use fight again CP as well and we get a nasty elite list I think. Sorceror lords also hand out reroll saves as an ability and their spell is reroll to hit and wound... yea use that on archaon, fight twice, reroll everything. Support heroes do not really get better than that.

Just from reading warscrolls everything seems pretty good, although many weapon options for the individual units seem poorly balanced against each other, usually always 1 setup outshines the other by far, and everything with the word "flail" looks super bad. The stars from what I think right now with this limited overview: Demon prince - wow this guy is crazy, add in marks and aura of chaos for more nastyness, straight up strike first no matter what on a 3+ save flying hero, wow. The real kicker is the command abilities, especially Khorne and Nurgle stand out to me. Khorne can completely shut down a whole bunch of things, this guy can protect a big part of the table from any deep strikers and many charges by himself with little issue. As nurgle the d3 mortal wounds when being hit on 6s is super nasty. Lord of Chaos - At first glance he is just a semi decent hero on foot, but the command ability allows a unit to fight again in the combat phase and he seems to be the only guy with this command. Take a moment to consider how important these types of command abilities are in the meta. Remember Archaon is mortal too... this lord can ask Archaon to try harder and fight again. Chaos warshrine - This is both a totem and priest, so I might expect to see even more goodies in the book for priests, but the base scroll alone looks good, it is rather fighty now and tough, gives 6++ saves and great buffs depending on marks, flat out reroll to hit or +1 save for example. Chaos warriors - Those 3+ mortek guard with reroll saves you love? now see these guys of nurgle in 20 man blobs backed with warshrines. they now reroll saves when 10 or more and not just 1s. Give them +1 save. Maybe use a demon prince to give them that sweet d3 mortal wounds when hit on 6s and dare your opponent to even try killing them. Other good stuff as well, marauders looking like a super decent meatshield. Knights all around fine benefitting from a great command ability from the mounted lords (+1 hit and reroll charge).

I am curious of what you find fun to play against? Slaanesh who wipes you out before you can strike? DoK with 10 pt battleline with 5++ rerolling save and 4 attacks? Morathi who cannot take more than 3 wounds per turn? Lords of the lodge fyreslayers striking first and 2 times with hearthguards? Deepkin with all of the army striking first in turn 3? I really want to know what is "fun" and why can't OB be fun? Is it just the people you have fought only owning buckets of Mortek Guards making a wall? The army can make many builds, and comparing it to the variety found in many other tomes, they are doing quite well with multiple units and could field both cavalry and monster armies, a Nagash list or Arkhan with his explosive friends. I also own Ironjawz and Nighthaunt and they are far more one dimensional, either having only 3 units to choose from in total or every single thing being a 1 wound ghost with 4+ ethereal save.

As I new player I can understand this but can't agree either, as this is basically the norm for every new tome to break some core rule. In fact besides how CP work, the reapers "break" far less than many other armies. The trademark of the top armies currently is to mess with the order things happen in phases, especially the combat phase, where you will see the strongest armies being able to dictate the flow, like fighting first no matter what you do. The Reapers do not do this and they do not limit YOUR gameplay and options in the same degree. People need to discard the thought that OB just get free CPs. They completely discard one mechanic for another. Their battleline litterally have no abilities at all besides these discipline triggered abilities, so GW has made this a different economy, it is not like any other army has 0 rules for their units and need CP to activate those. It needs to be understood their entire allegiance abilties are centered around this mechanic, the nexus and the discipline points is what this army is all about. Maybe as a new player you are not aware of all the allegiance abilties floating around, but many armies can summon completely new units to the tabe, force you to fight last no matter what in combat, teleport at will and so on and so on. GW made something new with the system, which is an economy that replaces something else, so it is a tradeoff too. Orruks for example in Big Waagh get both their Waagh points and CP as normal, but that is all part of an overall design, you can't just cherry pick pet peeves here and there. Armies like Khorne and Fyreslayers already "broke" endless spells by having judgements and invocations doing the same thing, but with 0 risk at all. Slaanesh is also entirely immune to their own endless spell effects, the reapers can control their predatory spells, but suffer a -1 cast pentalty as long as they have it active. The only thing this thread should be concerned with might be the Petrifex Elite legion which is insanely poorly balanced, it is too strong and gives the entire army a bad rep, which the Mortek Guard reroll ability magnifies. Any other legion is far from as oppressive. Against other legions games will be "regular" warhammer most of the time, they are one of the new tomes breaking the least rules, while just being strong in general. Take this, a single Keeper of Secrets alone breaks far more rules of the core game than all of the OB book. 1 model can manipulate the fighting phase order, fight twice, auto hit with traits, summon more units by just killing and taking damage, force you to take mortal wounds or possibly die, heal itself from both attacks and spells. Even regular legions of nagash can have entire units wiped out and replace them, recently with the reapers with 4+ unrendable saves in 30 man blocks which could be entirely replaced for 1 CP. Yet these lists fell from grace due to the above. If GW just erratas petrifex with some nerfs, that should mostly fix the tome, and at that point it will just be a good tome but not a top 5 tome compared to others out there. They are certainly not the only ones in need of being brought in line.

Crawlers need line of sight so use the terrain to your advantage as much as possible to avoid getting your wizards picked of early. A failed save will kill a wizard if wounded by a full profile crawler shot for 5 damage. If you can get anything engaged with the crawler you have rendered it useless due to the 6" minimum range, it does not matter what, just get something in their and it is 200 points of plastic standing around, which is much better than actively trying to kill it. Dealing 3-4 wounds at range can be useful though, just to lower the damage enough to not one shot a wizard outright, but your focus is better used elsewhere, especialyl if you can get them engaged rather early with the bridge for example. The mortal wound output by hallowheart does well against the reapers, also mortek guard can only reroll saves in combat, so picking them of with handgunners is ideal, even petrifex mortek guard will "just" be at a 4+ save without rerolls. Screen with cheap stuff, guard with swords and shields, or flagellants if you have them, they dont care about the rend of the reapers and if some flee you can hurt him bad too. If he has a harvester close to mortek guard, don't try to kill them first, either let that deathstar be and focus elsewhere, or go for the harvester first. Don't try to outbrawl him in combat, be smart with engagements and if he uses larger units, engage them on flanks to keep them from piling in effectively and extend the lifespan of your screen, while your ranged units and magic does the damage. I don't know what types of models you have for cities, as mentioned at least handgunners and ranged with some kind of rend will be good, start as much out of line of sight or in cover as possible to minimize the danger of catapults picking of your heroes and squishy ranged units, it does have 0 rend after all. If you have them, shadow warriors are good as well, the reapers have no deep striking or teleporting, so the threat of an ambush unit alone will force him to dedicate guards for the catapults, if 110 pts of 10 shadow warriors can force a unit of mortek guard to chase them around the catapults, thats a good thing, and their shooting with rend will just make it hard for your opponent to trust a 10 warrior unit to get the job done, so he might dedicate even more to guard his backlines, which makes the rest easier to deal with for you.

It is a 50/50 situation, so you could use 2 playing cards to represent each player (like king of hearts and king of spades), shuffle them and put them face down. Your opponent chooses a card and looks at it, then places it face down again, discard the other card.

After the new book I can hardly get people to play my Ironjawz or Big Waagh (with just ironjawz units). I have to very deliberately softball them by simply brining few warchanters. Mighty destroyers is extremely powerful. In a 1k game your friend should avoid a clan and just get the cunning warlord trait instead for 1 free use of mighty destroyers per turn. His Mawkrusha can then move 12"x2 every turn guaranteed and just wreck whatever it wants. Next gore gruntas is king, buff them up with a warchanter for +1 damage to all weapons, mighty destroyer move them twice, so they can move 18" in one turn. Now you got a Mawkrusha and Double damage grunta unit right in the face of the opponent turn 1. Smashing and Bashing will also serve him to easily clear out skink screens for example. On an equal skill level the Ironjawz player would probably run with at least 2/3 wins against the other armies from what I can read here, unless he runs with 0 warchanters then the issue is quite clear on his part. This is as much understanding the army than just the composition. You could go to youtube and look up some battle reports as well, quite a few newer ones with the orruks obviously, not that many with seraphon though of high quality, but did see at least one really interesting competetive game with them on rerolling ones, who brought in a tournament winner with his seraphon.