DerZauberer

Gloomspite actually is an army that generates CP like no other, there are armies out there where making choices between command abilites is far more difficult. You can end up anyhwere between 1 and 4 CP per turn, this is by far more then other armies. You will use the Mangler CP in combat, the Giant Cave Squig CP in turn 1 and/or 2 to get up the board. It will make 2/3 of your army faster and therefore getting them where you need them. If you ever roll close to a two you get the feeling of importance the Giant Cave Squig gives you and on average having 10" instead of 7" is quite huge. Another thing about squigs is that your opponent cant realy account for your movement, as you have very random movement. And you want to be as fast as possible on your enemy with squigs, as you are so very vulnerable to shooting. I would never skip him as soon as i'm running 10-20 boingrots, having 200-400 points moving 2"-4" is game breaking and can really mess up your turn. But those are of course just my experience with him. Also, he can dish out some good damage and is a fast hero who can support your squigs should your mangle get shot of the board.

I like list one and two the most. List two seems to pack a punch and be all about the angry testicles. You got a solid core of 20 Boingrots and the Manglersquig, some casting and CP regenration and 45 squigs to camp objectives or flank. Squig herds can dish out some serious damage, but you need to keep some hereos around them to babysit, to maybe spend a CP on them not fleeing when not in combat ( just 2 wounds let you loose more models on a 3+ dice with the threat of damaging your stuff). List one utilizes our best unit in the book: grots. They are just amazing and you got a huge block of green dudes to cover up your squigs and choose the right turn to pounce. In addition you can make full use of your loonshrine. I'm not a fan of the colossal squig tbh, would always prefer a mangler to a colossal. In a squig based list i love MSU shootas, they can camp objectives, screen, do some support shooting and cover your squigs. Also the Loonboss on Giant Cave Squig is a huge bonus for his points to squigbased lists and does decent damage, +3" move on random squig move numbers is huge. The difference between moving 2" and 5" in the worst is massive. Luckily hes avaliable now from the Looncurse set. My list would be something like this:

I personally love the idea of asymmetrical battle plans. But somehow, in age of sigmar, i've never seen an example of a "good" asymmetrical battle plan. There was at least 5 attempts in our gaming group to find a good, fun looking asymmetrical battleplan which isn't outright whacky and absolute one-sided. Would be really glad if people could suggest me some and where they are printed. In 40.000 (where i've started the hobby) we somehow managed to get a lot of those asymmetrical games in and they were always huge fun. And even when not using the pre-made asymmetrical missions, the Mealstrom of War cards and the objective placement phase made each game very distinct. But, ofcourse, sometimes people got outright unlucky with their draws or their army composition could not handle the mission. But games were always fun where you did the impossible to achieve this one objective card and gain a good laughter out of it. It's the way to go in 40.000 i think to have the most fun. Especially with the new rules for selfmade decks in Mealstrom of War since ChapterApproved 2019. AoS handles symmetrical battleplan much better then 40.000. Eternal War missions (the symmetrical ones) in 40.000 tend to shoot each other up and decide in turn 3 who has more stuff on the board and wins.Tactical decisions are mostly how to split or arrange their firepower to disarm the enemy and meta is defined how good certain rules/weapons handle those situations. Age of Sigmar makes you really think about positioning and movement as engaging/ doing damage isn't as integral to the game as in 40.000. But those AoS games get dull so fast... take and hold objectives, with the only factors being 1)who can hold it 2) where is it and 3) how many points does it give. I agree that playing two games with alternating objectives on a asymetrical map makes a cool competetive experience - but playing two games of AoS to decide one matchup is very time consuming. But it would up list building to another level as you need to keep an eye for good units in the role of the attacker but also in the role of a defender. It can be truely a competetive experience. Armyswap sounds like an competetive experience, but in experience it can get the opposite. If player A wins with army 1 and player B wins with army 1, it only says that army 1 is stronger. But yeah, when player A wins with army 1 and 2 it speaks for player A that he knows both armies well and knows how to play them, impressive if you consider the amount of rules and bookkeeping in play. I would love eternal war cards for age of sigmar, it would probably cause me to only ever play age of sigmar, but currently, while i like the rules and models in age of sigmar the most and we play more AoS games then 40.000, the greatest and most fun games for me, to date, were fought in the far future.

I like the 3rd list the most - but i would swap out the Morkshroom for something different. You will probably always cast hand of gork and squig lure, so you only have one try per endless spell with your deffcap mushroom. Dunno, would be a bit frisky for me with no pluses to cast and limited casting. You want to get up there fast with your squigs i think and the Nukeshroom will only hurt you. The scuttletide could be usefull and allways is a nice tech tool for us gitz for 30 points.

It's not like we starve for cp, it's more about a hero babysitting the squigs. A single lost model causes you to loose additional models on a 3+, with 50% chance per fleeing model to hit your own stuff. I agree that they are single use as soon as they reach combat, but prior to that it's easy to get rid of a lot of squigs if you trigger their bravery. I would always spend a CP (in an army where i have a huge ton of CP generation) if out of combat.

Ruleswise it's awesome, everything pretty much has it's use and purpose and due to the good, near great internal balancing we see several different orruk warclan builds. I've switched off to Gloomspite last year but with the new book i'm pumped to add a whole bonesplitterz force to my ironjawz. Sad that the fluff is really blant and big waaagh is nothing "real". It feels tagged on so you can put ironjawz and bonesplitterz together and the abilities they gain are not what greenskins have been since ages (auto hitting?). But again, i'm very happy about all those rules, it's ridicoulus how much fun they've become.

Woah, this list just has so much flavour. Its literally called "Da Boss Fist" and just has all those beatiful bosses (6!) and brutes, like, super elite stuff, nothing weaker then a brute. I hope so much this establishes itself somehow and works, i can't feel but pure joy looking at such a list. I still think the Footboss isn't as much a tax as we think it is, but I agree the cost of this battalion alone is a bit hefty. I need to know how this list worked for you @Lanoss!

I think so, yeah. They need a bit of babysitting tho, you need to take care of their bravery with inspiring presence. I think as soon as they are in combat they really do some damage and are really point efficient. But they are just extremly vulnerable to shooting with the danger of hitting your stuff. But 48 Wounds, 48 Attacks with 4+/3+/-1/1 on a small base is quite strong. They can get really fast too with squig lure / moon / loonboss on giant cave squig CA. There is a specific competetive build around the Trogg Hag, Stabbas and Fellwater Troggoths to stack as much negative to hit modifiers on enemies as possible, so this combination is not as bad as you think it might be. But from a casual/semi-comp point of view you can't make "horrible" decisions. Rockguts and Fellwaters are really good, so are any flavour of Grots. You can spam those and be real efficient. But you want some fun in the list, so you need to cut out on Rockguts, Fellwaters and Grots: The Troggboss is okay, but nothing impressive. Hes a bit swingy, but hes fun, players literally bite their nails when his big club swings and each could do D6 damage or he just crushes a 5/6 wound character. The arguably most point efficient casters are fungoid, i would skip skragrott when you want to make the troggboss your general (so you get rockgut battleline). The arachnarok spider with webspinner shaman is awesome for his points. So 1-2 Fungoid and 0-1 Arachnarok Webspinner shaman seems plausable. The Trogg hag from Forgeworld is a nice fit in this list, too. The rest is a fine balance of playing to gloomspite gitz strengths (being a horde army) and to give them as much support as possible (snufflers, fanatics, battalions, etc.).

I love it when people like @Marcoangelo33 take a "OMG so garbage, literaly unplayable" faction/warclan/unit/rule and just play it to their strengths and make it work big time. Love it, thanks for the breath of life into Bloodtoofs.

The core FAQ proves that "Mad as Hell" is broken, or am i missing something here? Translated: "At the end of one or more phase, if one or more wounds or mortal wounds are inflicted in that phase on an IRONJAWZ unit that is more then 9" away from one or more enemy units, that IRONJAWZ unit can move D6". This would e.g. allow Ironjawz to move after combat, which would be arguably broken. But please, don't let this develop to a RAW vs. RAI discussion - again. Edit: Let me be clear, i never did and wont use mad as hell when an enemy unit is within 9". It's plain stupid. period. But this topic is NOT about INTENTIONS, it's about WRITTEN RULES. And i was confused due to the core FAQ and how it would work with Mad As Hell.

Any = one or more. So, if one or more wounds inflicted by Da Moon Onna Stikk are allocated to an enemy model and not negated, that enemy model suffers 1 mortal wound at the end of each battle round. It doesn't stack, the most damage you do with this special ability is 1 mortal wound each battle round per damaged unit.

@Kadeton general advice how to play against shooting lists is really good. That's pretty much all you need to know and if you - as a player - keep those in mind you play your best. Shortly, as a gitz and orruk player myself: Ironjawz have plenty tools against shooting, Ironsunz check all boxes on preparing for a shooting heavy meta. Just be super careful with your warchanters. Ironsunz -1 to hit and ironjawzs "mad as hell" should help you against shooting. I would give it a try. For gitz you need to drown the enemy in bodies and usefull endless spells that protect or screen. Shooting at grots is always a good trade for you. Just as @Kadeton said, protect your important units as the arachnarok and boingrots and spread out your grots as much as possible, shooting in aos is generaly rather short ranged.

Yeah... no. All those new fancy Grots, Squiggs and Troggoths, all this newer and awesome looking Brutes and Megabosses, but looking at my two tomes in my shelf my best units rules-wise are Grots and Ardboyz. Those kits have so many mould-lines...

You really tend to exaggeration, so much is clear in 180 pages of greenskin topics As much as i personally hate such stuff and when confronting me with such "moves" i'll get immensly salty, but this "move" is - right now - 100% legit. It's even quite simple to understand that it is legit. The only requirement for piling in is being in 3" range OR you've made a charge move earlier in the same turn. And retreating only hinders you from shooting or charging - piling in is still possible. The OR makes this possibly, but this OR is necessary to move the whole unit, not just models which made it possible to get into 3". Retreating normaly has its "failsave" written by stating you need to end your retreat out of 3" of the enemy. It's again oviously a loophole, nasty and not as intended. But i think the benefit is not as high as you depict it to be, we'll see. Edit: Aw holy moly. I totally forgot that enemies out of 3" can't hit you, but you hit them back when activated properly... nevermind, this is bonkers.

Interesstingly, you missed my point, too. I've marked my points in bold so i can leave that topic for good: "balancing" and "relative powerlevel" are defined by the community. Immense hyperbole in online discussion done by the community creates a pressure on players to allways pick the strong and op stuff. I've never seen another Witch Cult then Hag-Naar and i'm 99% certain said opponents did not figure out them self what the best Hag-Naar list looks like. If i want to compete in a casual environment today, the risk is high i encounter net lists, so i need to take one myself if winning is my goal. Prior to online communitys people were as competetive as they could be, as everyone had to figure out options and op stuff on their own. I've never did a mathematical research on damage output ardboyz vs. brutes, and i'm brave enough to say that 95% of the playerbase doesn't. Balance doesn't kill casual games, players which list building ideas are formed by third-person online oppinions to make their own list Inbalanced do. I could give you a myriad of example lists from OBR, HoS, BW, ... which are perfectly balanced. Again, i did not state the status quo is a super duper great one, i've never said that and made clear that there is inbalance in warscrolls and allegiance abilites. I only stated that there is progress, which equates your evolution synonym. Edit: A small anecdote: The father of a very good friend of mine has a beatiful stormcast eternals army. He loves the game and doesn't take part in any online community what so ever. Its so unbelievable refreshening to play him. He looks at his collection, picks units he wants to play today, creates a list around it and i - with my spoiled internet knowledge - try to match it and have just amazingly fun. Ofcourse i could run a netlist as the internet tells me to, but neither he or i will have any fun out of it.

This topic will be with games in general as long as the internet exists and i'm amazed people have the time, energy and will to discuss it every. damn. time. Balance does not exist. In no game ever created. I won't talk about chess and white having 52% win-percentage because this was done like a miriad of times. Why are people in warhammer so angry about every imbalance? Because they can't switch from black to white as easily as in chess (that's how meta's form). But: What i want to state is the immense hyperbole in online discussion today. Theres a lot of people out there doing all the maths and state that e.g. ardboyz are 4.724728% better then brutes point for point in fancy excel sheets. One week later everyone is like "brutes are TRASH" and "avoid them at all costs", "spam ardboyz, so op LMAO". People pick this imformation up and on TGA, Reddit, Facebook, Club, Store, etc. those informations are caried further. Three weeks after the new tome ardboyz are sold out. Everyone states that ardboyz are the only viable option, brutes are just utterly, horrific trash. People sell all their brutes and make "was it a mistake to buy 10 brutes?" topics on reddit. Each list posted for discussion is critized for taking brutes. Interesstingly, six weeks later a well-known TGA celeb takes second place in a two day tournament running 25 brutes and 0 ardboyz... So yes, there are huge imbalances - internal and external - but i remember times playing with a 3rd edition codex against a 6th edition codex in 40k (and both were up to date) and people had fun with it. With 22 factions having 3+ entries in the LVO i assume the game is as healthy as never. There is progress and people who deny it don't know the dark eras of GW. And if this is not enough, we all are allowed to chase the meta. The community would be better off to point imbalance out, discuss it, but allways make sure to not label everything trash or op immediatly. Because when people only stick to all the OP Stuff - as the internet and netlists told them to - they will compare everything to OP stuff and we never get something simliar to balance.

Maybe this topic would need a disclaimer as it seems to focus on competitive criterias? For me a Battletome is much more then powerlevel and meta defining builds. Art, story, battleplans, an army which feels like in the fluff, fluffy artefacts, traits, spells... this makes a great battletome for me. Gloomspite Gitz for example made an amazing job to tie such loose allegiances together into one bigger picture, giving you 4 "races" to play with and combine them as you like. The Allegiance ability is - from a competitive standpoint - weak, but it just feels right when the moon shines onto the battlefield and your whole army gets crazy mad and bonkers (like 5+ rules take place simultaniously). And GG have a very competetive build, with a heavy focus on Stabbas and the great Spellcasting and Endless Spells, wich features Grotz, Spiders, Troggoths and sometimes Squigs. Seems great to me, right? Orruk Warclan on the other hand made them really good and competitve, but besides "Yo boiz, Gordrakk iz here!" theres nothing to tie Bonesplitterz and Ironjawz together rather then just Waaagh! energy. Most art was reused, the fluff was rather blant and artifacts are pretty much +X, -Y. Doing a lot of damage fits orruks great, but being pretty much auto-hit machines is somehow weird and doesnt fit the army at all. Spamming auto-hitting Ardboyz - the least 'eavy boyz - for winning in a Allegiance thought combining both Orruk Warclans? You never use your "ultimate orky power" so you don't loose on auto-hitting? Rather disappointing, but hell, super competetive. Hedonites of Slaanesh are super good, but when you allways see all points spend into the same 2-3 Hero Warscrolls and as little points as possible in battleline, is it a good battletome?

So i was very lucky and got an awesome secret santa this year and was gifted a box of Fanatics and a Squig Gobba. I love both model kits, i think Fanatics are core to any Grot list and Squig Gobbas let every player at least once pick up the model and force a smile out. While i think Loonsmasha Fanatics are absolute awesome ruleswise, i'm not 100% sure about the Squig Gobba. 160 points is quite much, but 6 attacks 4+ against hereos/small units, 3+ against units of 10+ to hit, 3+ to wound and D3 damage sounds okay? 30" range is quite much and requiring no line of sight makes it pretty much survive through the turns and cap a back objective. If there would be some kind of rend i would be sold immediatly. Some of you have experience with Fanatics or Squig Gobbas and mind sharing their oppinion?

And again, my post towards RAI vs. RAW was not pointed towards you, not even the ardfist, just a general reaction on @Kasper's post... No need being that harsh.

In my oppinion it's sad. This rule is clearly intended to work that you only can spent 1 CP when a unit is destroyed. But from 499 cases (in which it works) there will be 1 case where it won't work, and that's where the loophole comes in. People will maximize their chance to achieve this 1 case and get an advantage of an "bug". The whole RAW vs. RAI discussion is as old as humanity and i hate it. It's abusing bugs. But people can't argue or make a foundation for decisions based on intention and good-will, and if you need to defend your "interpretation" vs. letters printed in black on white canvas, you gonna have a hard time.

I meant it only metaphorical as you've stated this first, never meant to asume stuff, sorry for that! You're absolutly right, RAW there is a gap right now which you could still abuse.

Yay, another RAI and RAW discrepancy. But if you would be my opponent and insist on that super niche thing i would immediatly leave the table and shake my head, sorry. There is no explicit statement saying ... at the start of the battleround, after players decided turn order... is in a phase or is not in a phase. Regarding Core Rules, a game are a series of battle rounds, each round consisting of two turns, each turn having 6 phases. No space in between that. Each phase has start, during, end. So for endless spells to take effect the turn order has to be decided. So is this officially a phase yet or not? No one knows, as there is no clear definition of when the "Phase-Phase" starts. Therefor i would flip the board if my opponent somehow manages to kill his unit in the what-ever-phase-round-thingy and wants to spend X+ CP on it.

Same, this would invalidate @Malakree's math, does it? If i understand your math correctly you calculate 120+X*50(CP) for the pointcosts to look how your success rate alters with X (+1 for the ardfist) CP? Afterwards you check when your above 80% and look if your net in points is positive? But its always 50% as you can't have more then one attempt a phase. If you don't make that 4+ your unit is gone. And thats in a vacuum where you only loose one unit a phase.

Imagine some kind of laser add-on that allows you to point the laser on the center of the objective and it illuminates an 6" radius around it as a thin line. Problem only is you need to point the laser dead center with no tilt so you don't stretch the circle in one way or the other. But this would be awesome.

While i'm glad the old ardfist was fixed, i think they made a mistake in fixing the battalion. The 4+ was great when allowing players to spam CP on it, as you could trade one ressource (CP) to have a higher probability if you really needed that unit. Now it makes the battalion such an random and high stake mechanic . When 30 Ardboyz get destroyed, you either get a incredible advantage by a lucky roll and the enemy is super salty or you loose the roll and your "list strategy" crumbles. I'd love the limit of this battalion being on the unit being revived, not the CA. So you can still pump alot of CP into a unit if you really want it to be revived, but if it is back, its done and you can't use it that phase anymore.