Lets Chat Wanderers / Wood Elves compendium

[Aezeal]

7 hours ago, WABBIT said:

The glade lord on eagle has both spirit sword and a bow as per the model. It doesn’t say choose one or the other on the warscroll and no one would spend 120pts on just 4 combat attacks or 3 shooting attacks. I’ve always used it with both and no one I’ve played against has suggested it should be any different before. It’s one of the few points efficient models in the woodelves army so let’s not ruin it??? 

This is incorrect. The eagle lord has to choose (the wording is Some.... others...) The stag lord has both (all have a sword and spear and some ALSO a bow).

[WABBIT]

Well I disagree that’s a rules lawyer approach. There is no way you would not allow an elf lord to attack in combat. It doesn’t say you have to choose. This is why I dislike AoS rules. Far too flakey and open to interpretation. It’s complete nonsense the model has both weapons so you can use both. I’d avoid players who try to nerf your scrolls in this way. Kills the fun. 

 GW made the scrolls for all models based on the models armament. Even a glade guard has a combat attack. 

[someone2040]

7 hours ago, WABBIT said:

Well I disagree that’s a rules lawyer approach. There is no way you would not allow an elf lord to attack in combat. It doesn’t say you have to choose. This is why I dislike AoS rules. Far too flakey and open to interpretation. It’s complete nonsense the model has both weapons so you can use both. I’d avoid players who try to nerf your scrolls in this way. Kills the fun. 

 GW made the scrolls for all models based on the models armament. Even a glade guard has a combat attack. 

It's very clear that you have to choose one or the other. There is no 'rules lawyering' about it. The exact quote being:

Quote

Some Glade Lords soar to war armed with a Spirit Blade, but others instead prefer to rain arrows down on their enemies using a Greatwood Bow.

There is nothing unclear about that sentence. Some of them use a Spirit Blade, others use the Greatwood bow. They always have an Eagle which attacks in combat.

And there are definitely other cases of models not attacking in combat. Why, just look to the Stormcast Eternals Knight Venator. Only his Star Eagle attacks in combat, he doesn't whack people with his Realmhunter Bow, probably too precious.

Yes, it is inconsistent that some people will whack the enemy with their bows, while others won't. But honestly, that's what GW has decided makes sense to them, so they're the rules you have to live with.

[rokapoke]

3 minutes ago, someone2040 said:

And there are definitely other cases of models not attacking in combat. Why, just look to the Stormcast Eternals Knight Venator. Only his Star Eagle attacks in combat, he doesn't whack people with his Realmhunter Bow, probably too precious.

Your information here is out of date; in the updated battletome, he gained a "Bow Stave" melee attack. 

However, I don't dispute the remainder of your points. 

[someone2040]

6 minutes ago, rokapoke said:

Your information here is out of date; in the updated battletome, he gained a "Bow Stave" melee attack. 

However, I don't dispute the remainder of your points. 

Interesting! Seems like the GW website is out of date.

I guess GW probably agree ultimately that if you have a Bow, you'll be able to whack people with it. Sadly for the Glade Lord on Great Eagle, he'll never receive that treatment (As even if Wanderers get an updated battletome, he won't be in it unless they create a new model for him).

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

Heya, always been curious with how Wood Elves play, and especially with the new Wanderers Allegiance Command Traits and Artefacts... it seems like there's the potential for some crazy shenanigans.  Was looking @ viability of the Waystone Pathfinders Battalion in a single-drop list:

 

Allegiance: Wanderers

Leaders
Nomad Prince (80)
- General
- Trait: Myst Walker 
- Artefact: Wending Wand 
Spellweaver (80)
- Heartwood Staff
- Artefact: Viridescent Shawl 
Waystrider (80)
Waywatcher (100)
Waywatcher (100)

Battleline
20 x Eternal Guard (160)
- Wanderers Battleline
10 x Eternal Guard (80)
- Wanderers Battleline
30 x Glade Guard (360)
30 x Glade Guard (360)

Units
5 x Wild Riders (140)
5 x Sisters of the Thorn (220)

Battalions
Waystone Pathfinders (240)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 135

Lacks a Behemoth, but gives the ability to (more often than not) dictate 1st turn order, allowing the setup of the Glade Guard where you need them along the board's edge for taking out the high-save units.  Obviously it's very glass-cannon, and checking with you experts to see if something like this even works.  Myst Walker to keep your General alive (reroll 1's for shooting when the Glade Guard will be at 3+.. not bad), the Wending Wand to allow a shooting unit on the other side of the board to return around him, and the Viridescent Shawl on the Spellweaver to help keep her alive and boost her casting rolls.

Trash?  Not sure if the Battalion is worth it, when we could take a strong Behemoth otherwise.  I like the concept of moving the General up and having the Waywatchers and Glade Guard fire into the enemy in your hero phases.

If Battalion is too expensive, maybe Allying in a durable Behemoth to debuff the enemy would help:

Allegiance: Wanderers

Leaders
Nomad Prince (80)
- General
- Trait: Myst Walker 
- Artefact: Wending Wand 
Spellweaver (80)
- Heartwood Staff
Waywatcher (100)
Waywatcher (100)
Anointed Of Asuryan On Frostheart Phoenix (240)
- Allies

Battleline
20 x Eternal Guard (160)
- Wanderers Battleline
20 x Eternal Guard (160)
- Wanderers Battleline
30 x Glade Guard (360)
30 x Glade Guard (360)

Units
5 x Wild Riders (140)
5 x Sisters of the Thorn (220)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 240 / 400
Wounds: 152

[awcamawn]

9 hours ago, WABBIT said:

Well I disagree that’s a rules lawyer approach.

I think someone willfully ignoring the word 'instead' is the rules-lawyer in this case. It's relatively plain English. If you compare to other warscrolls I think it becomes pretty clear. As mentioned the Lord on Stag scroll is a great example:

"A Glade Lord on Great Stag is a single model. A Glade Lord is armed with a Kindred Blade and a Starlight Spear. Some Glade Lords also carry a Greatwood Bow to shoot their foes from afar. The Glade Lord rides upon a majestic Great Stag, which attacks its foes with its Mighty Antlers." Always gets blade and spear and the bow is optional (also) but not 'instead.' 

The 'Knights of Order' from the Empire compendium provide another example:

"Some units of Knights of Order ride to war with Lances and Swords and Shields. Others eschew a shield and prefer to wield Cavalry Hammers. Knights of Order are mounted upon Warhorses that attack with their Steel-shod hooves." Here we see the keywords 'others' 'prefer' as on the Lord on Eagle's warscroll.

And here's the text from the Vampire Lord on Abyssal Horror:

"A Vampire Lord on Abyssal Terror is a single model. Most Vampire Lords wield a Deathlance, but some prefer to wield a Vampiric Sword. Some Vampire Lords also carry an Ancient Shield for protection. The Vampire’s Abyssal Terror attacks its prey with its Claws and Tusks."

The scroll would say 'and' it if always wielded both bow and blade or 'some also' if it was optional. The 'some instead' text makes it about as clear as AoS rules get. Look, I love Wood Elves too, but that doesn't mean that every rule interpretation that favors us is correct. Should the elf be able to carry both? Yeah, probably. Would I say anything if my opponent used both weapons? Proabably not, it's just a game after all, and one that has quite a bit of randomness from the hundreds of dice rolls. Roll them bones and worry less about rules is the way to go for me.

[Aezeal]

15 hours ago, awcamawn said:

I think someone willfully ignoring the word 'instead' is the rules-lawyer in this case. It's relatively plain English. If you compare to other warscrolls I think it becomes pretty clear. As mentioned the Lord on Stag scroll is a great example:

"A Glade Lord on Great Stag is a single model. A Glade Lord is armed with a Kindred Blade and a Starlight Spear. Some Glade Lords also carry a Greatwood Bow to shoot their foes from afar. The Glade Lord rides upon a majestic Great Stag, which attacks its foes with its Mighty Antlers." Always gets blade and spear and the bow is optional (also) but not 'instead.' 

The 'Knights of Order' from the Empire compendium provide another example:

"Some units of Knights of Order ride to war with Lances and Swords and Shields. Others eschew a shield and prefer to wield Cavalry Hammers. Knights of Order are mounted upon Warhorses that attack with their Steel-shod hooves." Here we see the keywords 'others' 'prefer' as on the Lord on Eagle's warscroll.

And here's the text from the Vampire Lord on Abyssal Horror:

"A Vampire Lord on Abyssal Terror is a single model. Most Vampire Lords wield a Deathlance, but some prefer to wield a Vampiric Sword. Some Vampire Lords also carry an Ancient Shield for protection. The Vampire’s Abyssal Terror attacks its prey with its Claws and Tusks."

The scroll would say 'and' it if always wielded both bow and blade or 'some also' if it was optional. The 'some instead' text makes it about as clear as AoS rules get. Look, I love Wood Elves too, but that doesn't mean that every rule interpretation that favors us is correct. Should the elf be able to carry both? Yeah, probably. Would I say anything if my opponent used both weapons? Proabably not, it's just a game after all, and one that has quite a bit of randomness from the hundreds of dice rolls. Roll them bones and worry less about rules is the way to go for me.

To be fair if he got both he'd be way stronger than the stag guy.. he probably already is.

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

Do you guys still find value in the Waystone Pathfinders Battalion, even with the cost increase, or no?  

[Frozenbeast]

10 hours ago, Black_Fortress_Immortal said:

Do you guys still find value in the Waystone Pathfinders Battalion, even with the cost increase, or no?  

I personally never used it 'cause when it was lower price i did not have the models and now that I do, because of the cost so high I scattered toward mixed order. Although I heard mighty things on it. It is pretty much the next level alfa striking for elves...sorry...AELVES...anyway. you can basically oneshot the majority of the units in this game between the free shooting in the hero phase and the normal shooting phase. also, if well positioned you can defend well your shooters with a lot of bodies from either EG or WWR or your cavalry seen WR don't do much anymore you might as well just use them as bodies (and considered you HAVE to list a spellweaver you could use the spell on them so you bring them back).

Let's say the batallion has his place, limited but it has it.

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

5 hours ago, Frozenbeast said:

I personally never used it 'cause when it was lower price i did not have the models and now that I do, because of the cost so high I scattered toward mixed order. Although I heard mighty things on it. It is pretty much the next level alfa striking for elves...sorry...AELVES...anyway. you can basically oneshot the majority of the units in this game between the free shooting in the hero phase and the normal shooting phase. also, if well positioned you can defend well your shooters with a lot of bodies from either EG or WWR or your cavalry seen WR don't do much anymore you might as well just use them as bodies (and considered you HAVE to list a spellweaver you could use the spell on them so you bring them back).

Let's say the batallion has his place, limited but it has it.

It seems like it has a few uses:

• Dictating turn order for Round 1
• Turtling up in the back corners with Eternal Guard bubble-wrap, allowing buffing with Nomad Prince
• Sliding down either side of the board and shooting stuff with buffed-up alpha-strike

[Cambot1231]

Question on Eternal Guard:

 I had my first game with a mixed order (primarily wanderer) list this weekend and was looking for some rules clarification on the Eternal Guard ability Fortress of Boughs.  The ability says that I cannot move until my next hero phase in order to get the added benefits.  So does that mean that the enemy can basically crash into the flank of my line and I can't do much to retaliate since if i move to pile in I lose the bonuses from fortress of boughs? 

Thanks

[Frozenbeast]

well technically if you declare the Fortress of Boughs you cannot do anything so this means you cannot then decide to break the formation and loose the bonuses it gives you: that is a thing yo already declared so you cannot amend it any tie you want. That said, yes, you are right, yo cannot pile in but to be honest that is really their purpose: be clashed on.

And the whole thing is part of the big Wanderers discussion after the GHB 2017: they have been given an allegiance that directly counter every rules they have.

[WABBIT]

@Cambot1231From the 2017 FAQ Order v1.2

Q: If an Eternal Guard unit uses the Fortress of Boughs ability, does it lose the effects of this ability if it makes a pile-in move during the combat phase? A: If the Eternal Guard uses the Fortress of Boughs ability they cannot make any kind of move until their next hero phase – this includes piling in.

 

 

[Cambot1231]

Thanks for the clarification. Its as I feared then...  

[Aezeal]

14 hours ago, Frozenbeast said:

well technically if you declare the Fortress of Boughs you cannot do anything so this means you cannot then decide to break the formation and loose the bonuses it gives you: that is a thing yo already declared so you cannot amend it any tie you want. That said, yes, you are right, yo cannot pile in but to be honest that is really their purpose: be clashed on.

And the whole thing is part of the big Wanderers discussion after the GHB 2017: they have been given an allegiance that directly counter every rules they have.

You could say counter.. but you could also say they complement each other.. these rules make our dynamic army static.. and the allegiance abilities give them back the movement in other ways. I mean it's hardly fair to expect to get the bonus of the fortress of boughs without a negative effect, it's one of the strongest abilities out there.

[Frozenbeast]

1 hour ago, Aezeal said:

You could say counter.. but you could also say they complement each other.. these rules make our dynamic army static.. and the allegiance abilities give them back the movement in other ways. I mean it's hardly fair to expect to get the bonus of the fortress of boughs without a negative effect, it's one of the strongest abilities out there.

 

Oh yeah, I agree my whole point was just to refer at every other synergy on the army, I mean this is a really minor one seen you sort of want them to stay put. You will have to pick and choose when to use what in what moment and certainly EG are the ones you have to decide less about but you have to choose for them too (this was my point even though it affect them the less)

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

4 hours ago, Aezeal said:

You could say counter.. but you could also say they complement each other.. these rules make our dynamic army static.. and the allegiance abilities give them back the movement in other ways. I mean it's hardly fair to expect to get the bonus of the fortress of boughs without a negative effect, it's one of the strongest abilities out there.

Agreed.  They have a 2" reach for a reason, lol.

[Baz]

So having listened to the Honest Wargamers Wanderers review they raised some interesting points regarding the Wanderers command trait Stalker of the hidden paths which allows a wanderer unit to return to the battlefield within 6" of the battlefield but doesn't specifically state:

a) wholly within 6" of the board edge and 

b) 9" from an enemy unit.

 

So technically speaking a unit can be set up in combat with an enemy unit

 

The same also applies to the Wending wand where they have specified the returning unit returns wholly within 6" of the board edge but have missed out the 9" away from the enemy.

 

Thoughts on how you guys would play this. 

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

10 minutes ago, Baz said:

So having listened to the Honest Wargamers Wanderers review they raised some interesting points regarding the Wanderers command trait Stalker of the hidden paths which allows a wanderer unit to return to the battlefield within 6" of the battlefield but doesn't specifically state:

a) wholly within 6" of the board edge and 

b) 9" from an enemy unit.

 

So technically speaking a unit can be set up in combat with an enemy unit

 

The same also applies to the Wending wand where they have specified the returning unit returns wholly within 6" of the board edge but have missed out the 9" away from the enemy.

 

Thoughts on how you guys would play this. 

It specifically states "after using the Realm Wanderers Battle Trait," which does have the limitation - I interpret it as just changing which board edge they can return by.

[Yeled]

18 hours ago, Black_Fortress_Immortal said:

It specifically states "after using the Realm Wanderers Battle Trait," which does have the limitation - I interpret it as just changing which board edge they can return by.

Yep. I totally agree. It's still using the allegiance ability, just adjusting the board edge on which you can appear.

[Yeled]

New rules question: Waywatchers have the Invisible Hunter ability, conferring on them a -1 to be hit in the shooting phase. They also have the See, But Do Not Be Seen command trait, which grants the Invisible Hunter ability to nearby Wanderers.

I'm assuming these do not stack in the case when one Waywatcher is the general and another is nearby, since the second Waywatcher already has the ability. Anyone play this differently or have a different interpretation?

[Aezeal]

2 hours ago, Yeled said:

New rules question: Waywatchers have the Invisible Hunter ability, conferring on them a -1 to be hot in the shooting phase. They also have the See, But Do Not Be Seen command trait, which grants the Invisible Hunter ability to nearby Wanderers.

I'm assuming these do not stack in the case when one Waywatcher is the general and another is nearby, since the second Waywatcher already has the ability. Anyone play this differently or have a different interpretation?

All rules aside.. I don't think it should stack and don't play it as such.

[Aezeal]

So mixed order + hammerhall allegiance, based on wanderers

 

Hurricanum + mage     380

Nomad Prince                 80

4x waywatcher (lord)    400

2 x 5 waywatchers         160

2 x 20 GG                            480

1 x 10 Executioners       180

This seems like a nice basis/core of the army for 1680 points which has decent synergy on bonus to hit.  320 points to spend.

 

Now I'll take you to my ideas.. my thoughts are long.. boring etc etc.. but I'm putting them here anyway so you can follow my choices so far:

I need: another battleline unit, more GG is an option but I prefer taking them in 20's and that would be another big cut out of the allowance. I'm considering 10 dryads since they are in theme, decent for their points and relatively cheap. I'm open to suggestions.

Other thoughts:

- I think a unit of 10 EG could be a good addition for some cheap - but possibly somewhat durable - mix between chaff and tarpit.

- a mage is always a good option.. if I take another one spellweaver is wood elvish.. but a collegiate wizard gets +1 to cast from the hurricanum.

- I have some more waywatchers lying around and I think they are probably the best shooting unit even though they are low on wounds.

- I think without the wanderer allegiance ability this basis does lack speed. To compensate I'm considering wild riders (fast but otherwise not good), Sisters of the thorn (very expensive but nice spell), warhawks (very very fast, and  can also be single unit chaff, more wounds  but even worse save for the points in comparison to wild riders) great eagles (similar to warhawks but not sure they are worth the extra  points), and even more chaffy but still fast option are hunting hounds.

- Something big is an option (TL, Drycha, durthu, phoenix, dragon) if it's scary it might mean my hurricanum get's less attention, this could combine with a loremaster (but I'd have to cut a bit from the core I made up since I also need a 3th battle line unit.

-Lore master could also work with (my max 2) dark elf reaper boltthrowers , they die quickly on long ranged enemies though.. however then they are at least not shooting at the hurricanum. (sadly this whole set up is 340 points.. which is to much even ignoring the 3th battleline unit). * maybe the spell would be somewhat worth it on a waywatcher lord *

- IS the nomad prince worth it in this set up (his ability doesn't work on a bit part of the army but still works on the waywatcher lords and the GG.. which is not insignificant.. but a 5th waywatcherlord is an option which just lets me roll more dice

- Stormcast have several decent to good choices in units and hero's

 

CURRENTLY my ideas are

- I'm leaving the stormcasts for now.. I don't have the models and (as you will see below) I ahve enough idea's that are more in theme (wood elf or wanderer which is first tier in this regard or sylvaneth, other aelfs preferably shooty which is 2nd tier.... stormcast would be... somewhere like... 5th tier thematically...)

- I think something big is not an option don't want to cut the executioners to make room for them

- Another mage (next to the hurricanum) except for a loremaster doesn't seem needed / worth it but the loremaster doesn't have a good target in the core army.

- Sisters seem a bit to expensive (especially since I have little points left) , they work nice if you also have a shield on the target but the hurricanum spell is just to good to not cast it.

- I think I'll leave the nomad prince in there for now and not take a 5th waywatcher (lord).

- I think combining fast movers and chaff in single model units of warhawks seems the best option to keep those roles filled (even though by combining them the fast movers don't get a lot of models which is suboptimal.. but it's cheap)

- I WOULD like to try lore master and 2x reaper boltthrower (with just a single one I think it's just very vulnerable and after 2 wounds I'll just have no target for the loremaster again) But where to get the points.....

- I would like to get another 10 waywathcers (unit) in there

 

SOOOO... even after cutting some idea's that leaves me with about 2200 or more points for my 2K army.....

 

Thoughts please!!! 

 

PS does invisible hunter from waywachter (unit) stack with the (lesser.. but identically named) invisible hunter from  the waywatcher (lord) command ability) EDIT: wait.. the command ability only works on wanders ofcourse.

PPS back to the fast units.. how do you people rate wildriders vs warhawks vs eagles (as quick movers) and eagles vs hunting hounds vs gryphounds (as single model chaff)

 

[WABBIT]

Wardancers, Swiss Army knives