Inviting Newer Players, Compendium models, and the vallue of the "Old Guard"

[Foe-Hammer]

1 hour ago, AGPO said:

If someone has models, is friendly and wants to play, why refuse them?

Not everyone plays the same way. I play in a small club that likes narrative and the last time I played points movement trays were still a thing. I have good friends who love the tournament scene and comp every army they play. We get on because we have lots else in common and because we are "grown ups" who accept not everyone has to conform to *our* way of playing with toy soldiers.

 

+1 and well said.

Generalizing players into groups feels a bit offputting. It really comes down to individual people & players and what they are looking for from the hobby/game.

As a veteran player or "old guard" (as it is seems) who has been playing since 1997, I have seen this game & hobby grow, expand, and change on many levels.  I have played most of the armies at one point or another (both new and old, including AoS specific factions), and the one army that I have kept are my beloved Dwarves - and yes, I still call them that.

I have invested time, money and even blood (those hobby knives are sharp) in my favorite army. They are all on square bases, and I even have several units of the older metal minis and am always looking for minis to add to my collection.  I love the style and asthetics and I am emotionally invested in my army and I want to play them.  Since I am old guard, play an older army with square bases and compendium units, does this automatically disqualify me from AoS and trying to find friendly gaming groups to play with?

If the goal is to grow and expand the community, as well as encourage players to continue to invest, then why turn people away if they are friendly and want to play? 

[Criti]

This appears to have gone an interesting, and, I dare say, over the top direction.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that someone be uninviting or disqualified from joining a gaming group.

And I can't speak for everyone - but what I am suggesting is that there is an appropriate time and place for certain styles of play.  Perhaps my inarticulation of the original topic is to blame.

As I don't have everyone's situation, here's a further elaboration of mine:

I have a home game room.  Every Friday night, between 1 and 5 people show up and we play games.  Presently, we're playing Path to Glory as printed in the GHB.  In the past, we've done campaigns, open games, mega battles - you name it.  In fact, we're planning a super battle for the end of this year.  Approximately 30,000 points a side, trying to arrange all 4 Grand Alliances.  You'd better believe there is a huge chunk of Compendium models and alternative models for that game.

But that is a private game club.  

At the local stores in the area, nothing private exists (years ago, there was a subscription based, members only after hours club... but that shop has since closed).  Everyone is public, and I don't think there are more than 4 or 5 semi-regular people outside my private group who play Age of Sigmar within a 100 mile radius.  And those 4 or 5 who do?  It's a lot of out of print or alternative minis.  And I've watched the spark of interest drain from people who see a cool model, ask a store employee about it, and get told "we don't carry it."  This is the environment that I would absolutely say is NOT appropriate for the old stuff.

That new person who walks in the door - he or she is the future of the hobby.  Not you and I as veteran.  We've sowed our gaming oats, so to speak.  And when I see a population of 5... I absolutely cannot afford to let even 1 interested person get scared off.  Or get overwhelmed by the vast sea of alternative miniatures.  So I swallow my 15 year history, and I leave those models at home.  I play only with models I can get at that shop.  And, if the newcomer proves to be invested enough, I invite him to the private group.  I show him classic minis.  I show him some of my alternative stuff.  I show off other games that no one carries (DeepWars is awesome, by the way).  This can be replicated in shops through veterans' nights.

Incidentally, shops appreciate the hell out of the increased revenue.  And since I don't plan on making a purchase every week, I'm more than happy to do something to ensure this free place to play can pay its rent.

I came to this way of thinking after a lot of self-countering.  It's so easy for me to say "I'm invested emotionally in these old minis."  Or "I can sell this hobby by showing someone a used market."  But if I disconnect myself from the sense of self-entitlement all gamers seem to carry, and if I disconnect myself emotionally from my toys, and I try to think back objectively to how I viewed the hobby as an absolute newcomer back in 2002 (early March, incidentally) - I see a 16 year old kid who was completely overwhelmed by this new game he'd never heard of.  And there were tables, and there were boxes of armoured dudes with guns, and Elves with spears, and Lizard people, and so much more... and then I remember that had it not been for the guy sitting at a table painting who saw the look on my face and invited me to have a conversation, I would have walked out the door and never looked back.  Because other than that guy, I was lost in a sea of models - surrounded by gamers pew pewing each other off the table and not giving me the slightest interest whatsoever.

I remember that conversation, too.  He was painting a plastic Dark Elf Spearman.  I asked a few questions, and he walked me over to the wall and showed me the box it came out of.  And then he showed me the High Elves, and the OLD metal Wood Elves... and I was hooked.

Then I fast forward to today... and I see literally 50 times the variety in the miniatures world.  It's now my time to spot that confused looking kid or young adult and show them what the new toys look like, and show them the game, and show them the boxes and all of that stuff.  Not to show them models they can't buy.  To show them something ACCESSIBLE.  To not be the gamer in the back of the room who talks about esoteric trivia (and let's be honest... the Old World fluff is fast becoming esoteric trivia).

And because I'm human - I have to be selfish about it.  I have to sell MY game.  Because if I leave it up to someone else, I may lose a lifelong hobbyist to War Machine or X-Wing.  And then what will I have in a year?  2 years?  5 years?  Will there be any opponents left for me?

Is it a guaranteed thing that showing them models they can't buy will scare them off?  No.  But in a community this small, I can't risk it.

I also can't risk associating myself too strongly with the local Old Guard who would rather spend time playing games with out of print models and discussing out of print fluff instead of embracing the next generation of the hobby.

There are sacrifices we all make to bring in the new players.  Do yours need to be as extreme as mine?  Not necessarily.  But I would suggest that someone who isn't willing to make a few sacrifices to grow this thing we all love and play, then it's time for that someone to step aside.

[Sleboda]

10 hours ago, Criti said:

When I say "old guard," I'm geberally referring to the guy who still uses miniatures from multiple editions ago and more or less refuses to purchase the new thing

You may want to find a new label, then, because Old Guard actually sounds like a nice respectable thing to be.  The veterans who have seen their charges through a dark time, stalwart and resolute - they who remember a world that was. Nothing negative there.

 

As a suggestion, consider "non-customers" as a label for those players who do not make purchases.

[Ollie Grimwood]

It's really interesting because I've found the really old timers (3rd edition and earlier) were the people who really grasped the no points narrative style when AoS first dropped and got stuck into it. Where as people who started a little later seemed to have much more problem with it. 

Heelanhammer had a very good discussion on this when AoS first came out on the different perspectives from "Old"old timers and "New" old timers. 

[Kyriakin]

Miniatures available in the shop today could be Last Chance to Buy tomorrow.

If you buy a full Daughters of Khaine army now, and in a few months they all get squatted for the new evil elf hotness. Does that make you a "bitter old vet, who is using his models from many editions ago?", or just unlucky?

Let's face it, if you bought a Tomb King army just before the cull (i.e. before it went LCTB) you're 100% compendium now.

Such sharp cut-offs make players nervous about their investments (time and money). If it wasn't for Hasting's Cthulu talk a week-or-so ago, I'd be twitchy about sticking with Scourge Privateers right now.

[Criti]

42 minutes ago, Kyriakin said:

 

Let's face it, if you bought a Tomb King army just before the cull (i.e. before it went LCTB) you're 100% compendium now.

I actually did... during the End Times.  *sad panda*

I think there could be some wiggle room in certain updates.  I wouldn't begrudge someone using the 6th edition metal Corsairs, for example, as Corsairs are still a thing, but with an updated look.

[TheKingInYellow]

As a guy with 7 fantasy armies with models dating back to 3rd edition, the attitude that I can't or shouldn't use my army that I bought and paid for is exactly the attitude that turns people off AoS.

[Thomas Lyons]

On March 1, 2017 at 7:58 AM, Kyriakin said:

Miniatures available in the shop today could be Last Chance to Buy tomorrow.

If you buy a full Daughters of Khaine army now, and in a few months they all get squatted for the new evil elf hotness. Does that make you a "bitter old vet, who is using his models from many editions ago?", or just unlucky?

Let's face it, if you bought a Tomb King army just before the cull (i.e. before it went LCTB) you're 100% compendium now.

Such sharp cut-offs make players nervous about their investments (time and money). If it wasn't for Hasting's Cthulu talk a week-or-so ago, I'd be twitchy about sticking with Scourge Privateers right now.

This.  All of this.

[Daeron]

Just throwing in my 2 cents. I'm a casual, and a noob, and identify with new players more easily than the old guard, even though I'm an "old player" myself with over 10 years in the hobby. I recently made a vid on it (Your tournaments suck, don't worry the title is just for dramatic purposes). I don't think the old models are the issue, not even the old scrolls. Frankly, I doubt little Timmy, the new kid in the store, gives a damn about new or old models as long as they look cool on the table and he doesn't feel cheated in his game.

I'm not worried about the old models, but the players that come with it. It was a very tournament focused crowd, and it weighed on the community. That old gang also gave a lot to the community, from podcasts to blogs to tournaments. But when was the last time you stepped into a gaming club that didn't partake in 2.4K tournaments at some level? All I found in my country were tournament organised clubs. High points was the standard. It was the only way to PUG and compete. It had become such a norm that playing sub 2K was considered a one-off or a compromise as a show of good faith in the noobs.

AoS offered a reset, and it has worked reasonably well so far. I've seen stores promote small games more often in 1 year time than I've seen them offer for WFB in the whole of 8th edition. Just put yourself in Timmy's position, and ask yourself what he'll find worst: playing against good looking models no longer available for sale, from some legendary past, or being told that the box he got for Christmas was cute, but he'll need 3 more before being allowed to participate? Because nobody plays 500-600pts games and 2K is the norm?

My biggest concern, and gripe, with the old gang isn't the age of their models, but the elitism that 8th ed had acquired. And that old gang IS GREAT. It deserves to be said. They are the rockstars of the community, and I'd gladly honour them for it. But the most annoying, toxic AoS players I've met thus far are old timers with 8th ed (or older) models that just mashed up the most powerful ****** and roll their eyes with boredom after tabling their opponent in round 3. I don't think that's a coincidence.

If writing off the old models offers a guarantee to be freed from that ******, then I'd burn my Dark Elf army to herald Age of Sigmar... Although even that gesture was claimed by 8th ed elitists. Anyhow. If you show continuous support for new players, in a format that's playable and challenging at their level, I doubt they'll be worried about seeing a skeleton with a TK design instead of a VC design. They just want to play and have fun.

Whether old models are "balanced" is more of a concern for the tournament crowd.

[Kyriakin]

1 hour ago, Daeron said:

8th ed elitists...

There's plenty of elitism from the "your crappy old models" crowd too, with their demanding that nothing produced before 2014 is allowed to remove them from their precious  "immersion".

This game is 100% inclusive and open until someone personally doesn't like something.

[Daeron]

Oh, agreed. It goes both ways. I don't want to see old models invalidated just because. I think legacy armies have a place. But I see the mix of old and new players being brought up. I think new players are more worried about the requirements and fairness of the game they are in than the age of the models. I think they'll experience the demand to put 2K on the table, against a seasoned player as a bigger issue than a 500pt friendly game against TKs.

[Davariel]

I always find it interesting seeing the divisions that crop up within parts of the wargaming community considering we're all part of a very niche hobby! I think that no matter our different tastes (round or square bases, AoS or WFB,  40k or X-Wing, etc) we're all just people who enjoy playing with miniatures and are looking to have fun - whether by painting, gaming, writing fluff or whatever else. A lot of lines get drawn between gamers, but it's always been the things we have in common that stand out to me. 

AoS I think is a game that recognises this and tries to be as inclusive as possible (one of its greatest strengths IMO) - from the simple, easy to learn rules to the setting's vast scope to come up with whatever background you want. If people want to use compendium armies then I think they should be just as welcome as anyone else - we're all in this together. 

For what it's worth many of the concerns raised about new players dealing with old armies have never really seemed like a problem to me. With the rules so easily accessible online and on the app is it really so hard to look up what you're fighting against? A new player might be unfamiliar with how a Bretonnian or Tomb King army works on the table when they fight it... but wouldn't they be equally unfamiliar with the new army released just last week? Even the complaints about fluff and immersion feel a little hollow to me when elements of the TK range have been referenced in background books. Meanwhile Brets remain a great option for representing some of the infinite possible types of human civilisations across the setting - or are the only humans allowed in all the mortal realms Renaissance Germans with "Karl Franz" stamped on every other surface...? 

Anyway, that's just my two cents (or whatever currency Sigmar uses nowadays) 

[Travis Baumann]

I mentioned this in another thread but for what its worth to this one,  as a returning player who started in the mid '80's and then took a hiatus since around '99 I have been digging out my huge stock pile of old miniatures after getting interested in the state of affairs of miniature games and AoS as a whole has been a bit of a shock. 

I think the simplified rules are fine, have not had a chance to play yet but like the gist and what I have seen on here and other forums/sites as well as what I have seen at the local GW store.  My issues come predominantly with how hard it is to actually make my old armies/units conform to AoS warscrolls as well as how silly some of the models look in comparison to the size escalation of most leaders/heroes/behemoths of the current model lines.

For example I have 12 Bret Knights and 24 archers, the new warscrolls have these in units of 8 and 16 respectively which leaves a third of each of my units unusable.  This goes across the board.  I somehow have a unit of 3 DE Cold-one Knights from long ago... now they are in units of 5.  I have 6 DE Dark Riders but they are in units of 5 now which leaves one out.   I have 64 skinks with bows and I cannot even find that as a weapon option! Across all of my armies that I dug out of the closets from High Elves to Dark Elves, Skaven to Skeletons, Orks to Ogres, none of my old units function... I either have to leave a number of them on the sidelines or I am short from the unit requirements or they are incorrectly armed.   Any old guard player who can get their old army actually functioning in the new system... well more power to you.

The second thing I touched upon is how the newer models have just gotten huge in comparison.  I have the original Changer of Ways model which looks like a silly buzzard going "boo!"  I also have the second version of it which is about four times bigger, had really good sculpting but is metal so the wings fall off even with pinning.  Now the brand new one looks great but it is 3-4 times bigger yet and costs over $100.  If I bring mine to the table, it looks dwarfish - almost laughable.   The original Nagash is a normal figure... it would be awkward to bring him to the table and use the behemoth rules, etc for this little guy.  Large center pieces dominate what was once a much smaller scaled system.  I was painting an old Citadel giant last night for fun and quite frankly, he probably will look like a tall Ogre on the table against a modern AoS army which begs the question... does he even count as a giant any more?  Yet another example: I was playing around with the originally released Skaven Boneripper figure the other night.  Now, the new one is friggn gigantic in comparison - I would be hard put to expect my opponent to take that as what it is when they saw it in the deployment zone that is for sure.

My point of all this is, it is really hard to field legacy armies both in terms of unit structure but also with current model scale and impact, not even mentioning aesthetic.  I am torn on it.  I would love to drop some cash on a new army and pretend I don't already own 100's of miniatures, a portion of which still need to be painted, but not having an easy time with that.  Part of me still loves these old miniatures and part of me wants to just sell them off and start fresh.  I cannot imagine anyone looking at the majority of my old figures and wishing they could have any of them with a few exceptions (original Chaos Champions still look really good.  I have a well painted Dark Elf Sorceress on foot that still looks ok too).

[Kaleb Daark]

On 3/1/2017 at 10:49 AM, Ollie Grimwood said:

It's really interesting because I've found the really old timers (3rd edition and earlier) were the people who really grasped the no points narrative style when AoS first dropped and got stuck into it. Where as people who started a little later seemed to have much more problem with it. 

Heelanhammer had a very good discussion on this when AoS first came out on the different perspectives from "Old"old timers and "New" old timers. 

Absolutely Ollie.   I played fantasy since 1st edition to 3rd before coming back into the hobby in 8th.

I listened to that heelanhammer podcast and yes, I totally get no points narrative - however I think many of us of that time came to warhammer via an rpg route first be it Dungeons and Dragons (as in my case) or RuneQuest.  The scenarios available during 2nd edition were also very different - you cna find them with a healthy google of;

Terror Of the Lichmaster,  McDeath,  Boodbath at Orcs Drift, revenge of the Lichmaster.

Even to the point of giving you cardboard squares to cut out for the models if you didn't have them and card buildings to assemble - unthinkable now.

This post got me flicking through my 1st through 3rd rulebooks (not counting Ravening hordes and Warhammer armies books which came out after) and looking back the feeling was that if you could model it you could play it - dwarf lord riding dragon for instance.  The bestiary was a separate section.

I understand times have changed, and that now no model, no rules banana, but perhaps so has the ability to think freely.  Perhaps as lores and worlds were not so fleshed out be it in written or cgi media it was up to you the player to weave the magic around what you could get from white dwarf or the rulebook or what flavour the sculptor had imparted to the sculpt.

Perhaps it was necessary for us oldbeards to weave our own lore and scenarios and accept your opponents army for what it was because we had no choice rather than we chose to ignore that option.

I remember picking up the first 40k book and got all excited about what my marine chapter was going to be and their back story and their heraldry and iconography.  Now I hear and read so many arguments and debates over succession this and chapter that.   Like Sledoba I wouldn't begrudge an army which had love and effort poured into it - quite the contrary.  Ultimately we're pushing plastic soldiers around and having fun - the fun part being the most important as if your fun circuit burns out, you may as well sell up and go home.

I think I'll re-purpose my earlier post with a new view.  I dislike skimpers, I feel they do a disservice to the those of us who have paid a hobby due so to speak.  By this I mean those who intentionally bring filth but don't pay for the filth.  So... back in the world that was for instance; Throgg had a model, and there were chaos trolls and Orc and Goblin trolls to use.  Skimper would bring a rat ogre model with an axe glued to its back and a box of blight kings or ogres on the troll sized bases as counts as.   Used to get to me that did, and that is because it made a mockery of those players that had over many months managed to buy those models and run them and put time, money and effort into making that unit look incredible.   It was disappointing because they would keep bringing the same thing over and over again and you could see them spending money so it wasn't like the poor fella was skint - which again you wouldn't begrudge him if it motivated him to play and you'd help him any way you could.

Of certain models , one is privileged to use such as ForgeWorld stuff - they are high cost, high build and commitment effort.  Their warscroll or dataslate may be filth or certainly a bit eye watering, but there is a big part of me who feels that its the privilege the owner has because he has paid his FW due.  And so it is with any.  Getting a witch elf parking it on a walnut shell with some tyranid legs bodged into it does not Alarielle make so to speak!

LIke @Travis Baumann above I look at some of my remaining models and think wistfully ... oh well, great days,   But we've got mobile phones and laptops that we can say the same about.  However in reading Travis' post I see that he has paid his due.  I still have a Realm of Chaos 2st gen Bloodthirster, which when compared to my FW thirster looks like a comedy mini me, but back in the day he was the nuts.  And now, nearly thirty years on, he's still a bloodthirster - not a beastman with a couple of dodgy wings glued on because I was too tight to do it right.  I was skint, so I saved till I could.  Travis' Lord of change will always be a lord of change, however out of scale it is.   And in the case of some of the new minis I welcome them.

I always wanted to do a marauder army, but I just didn't like marauders,  Even to the point when I had 100 marauders I couldn't even bear to clip them off the sprue and build them.  Now... I have the perfect khorne marauders - bloodreavers, so I bought a shed load and now face the daunting prospect of painting them.  Sure I could have used my marauders and saved myself the best part of a hundred quid, but hell, this time around, I fancied upgrading my phone.

[AGPO]

I think what a lot of this comes down to is respect for both newer players and the place you are playing.

We've all had positive and negative experiences with other gamers. I remember when I first tried 40k and had my first real encounter with 'that guy'. He deliberately put down a list specifically comped to table my bashed together army of WFB daemons and a couple of new traitor marine units ASAP, gloating about it all the way. Had that first guy been my first exposure to the hobby, I doubt I'd have stuck around. It's not limited to competitive players. I've encountered plenty of "narrative" players who refuse to let new players use any model that isn't completely painted, or deride anyone who uses anot army that doesn't match their interpretation of the fluff as a "power gamer." Being a decent person who takes an interest in the people they're playing with is much more important than anything else when introducing new people to the hobby.

The point about showing some respect to the place you play is an important one. Most store based clubs don't cover costs and rely on players making purchases to keep them viable. This is peoples' livelihoods after all, even in GW stores. There's no doubt that this is an expensive hobby, and eBay and online sellers offer a way to stay a part of it for those on a tight budget. If you're going to do that however, my personal opinion is that you need to find a private club or host games at home rather than be a free rider on someone's business and other customers.

To take a personal example, I recently moved to France for my wife's work and am learning to play in French. The manager of my local GW has spent a fair bit of time talking to me , being patient with my rusty language skills and introducing me to other gamers. I always make sure I pick something up, even if it's White Dwarf or a couple of paints, because I appreciate having the service available. Given the crash in the pound post-Brexit and the fact that I pass close to Dark Sphere whenever I return to the UK, it becomes a tougher decision where to make big purchass s when the swing is €70 odd on the new Lord of Change. In general though, when I can afford it I buy from Pierre.

 

Tl;dr - be supportive of new people and support the place where you play. Don't be unfriendly or selfish.

[Criti]

On 3/2/2017 at 7:11 PM, Kyriakin said:

There's plenty of elitism from the "your crappy old models" crowd too, with their demanding that nothing produced before 2014 is allowed to remove them from their precious  "immersion".

This game is 100% inclusive and open until someone personally doesn't like something.

I could probably field over 100,000 points of models out of my game room right now.   And that's just pre-2014 Fantasy models.

I could probably drop 30,000-40,000 points of 40k with the same age range.

This is not including the other games I play.  Please note that I am not proud of this fact...as my wife has joked, that could be a vacation home. 

Please explain to me how limiting myself to using recent models IN CERTAIN SETTINGS (and if my previous posts were actually read instead of skimmed, you will see I am suggesting recent model use n certain settings only) is an elitist or exclusionary attitude.

As I've explained, my suggestion comes from the notion of how loyalty to the modern creates loyalty to a shop - which is good for the hobby.  Not on the shop level, but on the whole.  Since I'm typing this on my phone, I won't ramble on about the future of the hobby and the local gaming store at this time.   I can do so later.

[CentralKarma]

5 hours ago, AGPO said:

The point about showing some respect to the place you play is an important one. Most store based clubs don't cover costs and rely on players making purchases to keep them viable. This is peoples' livelihoods after all, even in GW stores. There's no doubt that this is an expensive hobby, and eBay and online sellers offer a way to stay a part of it for those on a tight budget. If you're going to do that however, my personal opinion is that you need to find a private club or host games at home rather than be a free rider on someone's business and other customers.

I agree with this for the most part, but not entirely.  In theory you're right, but what is the cut off point?

How much money do i need to spend a month to use the stores tables and stuff?  I've probably only bought 2 maybe 3 kits over the last couple months, because I'm saving my money for the new steamhead release.  Should I stop using my local store and only host games until that release comes out?

I plan to go wild, and destroy my wallet once they come out, not before then.

I think the moral of the story is release the steamhead's GW!

[Criti]

36 minutes ago, CentralKarma said:

I agree with this for the most part, but not entirely.  In theory you're right, but what is the cut off point?

How much money do i need to spend a month to use the stores tables and stuff? 

Why does it have to be money?

Run some demos. Organize an event.  Teach someone to paint.  Show a new player the model wall and which books and boxes will help get him/her started.  Show off some Black Library models.

Be an ambassador for the hobby in store, and you're helping "pay" for the game space we all need.

Be an ambassadoer to the second hand market in store and you're helping the local game space die slowly.

***Note that I am not advocating never buying second hand.  I did it for a few years while there were no shops in my area.  But I advocate paying where you play if you have a place to play.***

[CentralKarma]

5 minutes ago, Criti said:

Why does it have to be money?

Run some demos. Organize an event.  Teach someone to paint.  Show a new player the model wall and which books and boxes will help get him/her started.  Show off some Black Library models.

Be an ambassador for the hobby in store, and you're helping "pay" for the game space we all need.

Be an ambassadoer to the second hand market in store and you're helping the local game space die slowly.

***Note that I am not advocating never buying second hand.  I did it for a few years while there were no shops in my area.  But I advocate paying where you play if you have a place to play.***

That's a fair point.

My post wasn't intended to be as argumentative as it has come across, I'm genuinely wondering what is an appropriate level of local support.  Because I agree, its the responsibility of all that use it to contribute to its continued success.

I do support my local store, in many of the ways you've outlined, as well as trying to recruit friends using my own table and models .  Like you I have 10000s of points of old models.  My AoS era stuff is admittedly lacking.  I'm genuinely wondering though that others feel is an appropriate level of financial support for local stores.  I'm trying to start a discussion, not a problem.

I buy all my paints/ accessories locally, and plan on buying A LOT of dwarfs upon there release.  

Maybe this is a discussion for another thread, or maybe its not that important at all!

 

 

 

[Criti]

What is the appropriate level of support?  It's hard to say.  I guess that all depends in the health and strength of the local community.  If you have a strong local community that's inviting of the new player, I imagine very little is needed.

But if you're in an area where the hobby mojo is weak - giving that support can feel like a full time job.

Example - I checked out a local shop I don't frequent often this past weekend.  Went with a friend. The store owner pointed me toward the "regular AoS guys" - a group of 4 guys in the back of the shop.

We tried to engage them.  Might have been more successful explaining the atom bomb to a caveman.  Everything was one or two word responses.  So we finally said ****** it and started a game of our own.  Then we got one of their attentions.  One of the "regulars" walked up to the table, looked at our armies nd the following conversation took place: 

HIM: Death is broken.  

ME: They're not bad.  I know the regeneration thing can be-

HIM: We don't like playing them.

ME: I'm sorry to hear that.

HIM: And I like your Stormcast paint job.

ME: Thanks.

HIM: We already have a Stormcast player.  Don't want too many repeat armies.

MY BUDDY: Dude.  Don't be a ******.

HIM: Whatever. *walks away*

Mind you - this guy had to be late 30s, early 40s.

This shop... should I choose to go back, needs help.  This "community" is about as toxic as you can get.  Helping this community will require me setting up shop constantly and inviting every person who even looks at the miniatures to try a game.  It will involve basically building a core of friendly gamers from nothing, and hoping that this shop's "Old Guard" don't drag people down or poison the community... hoping that they come around and see that this hobby needs social, friendly people in order to survive... and that being that voice, while sometimes hard work, will be worth it in the end.

Before I ramble on, this is definitely an important discussion, worthy of a new thread.  But after seeing how divisive this one became, I won't be the one to start it!

[CentralKarma]

@Criti That's pretty brutal, I can see why you don't frequent that store.  This is 100% a hobby that needs social interaction to succeed.  

Between 40k and Sigmar, my local shop has a good level of support, and definitely doesn't have too much of that elitist/ power gaming culture you experienced over the weekend.

I just don't get it, we are consistently brain storming ways to attract new players, if two walked in, we would treat them like that.... even if death is a little broken  

[DarkBlack]

For the original post:

My first reaction is that you come across as quite privileged. Not everyone can afford to buy new armies (never mind buying models for other people). Buying a brand new army is not cheap, it's a barrier to entry. If I can get an extra person playing that's more important than getting their money to any business.

Support the place you play at, if given a choice then I always buy it from my FLGS, but I am not always given that choice. I think you have it backwards. I play wargames, hobby shops and gaming companies make money off that. I don't play games to support them. I play the games I like and buy the models I can and want to buy. If any shop does not stock that then they don't get my business, even if I play there. It's up to them to recognise what is being played and to support it. The hobby is made of people who play the game, not businesses.

For example: my closest hobby shop (where I play) does not sell Infinity or Mantic products, despite large groups playing those games. Do we need to change what we play or do they need to change what they sell?

The other shop in my city actively supports AoS, so I buy AoS there. I'm not giving a shop business from a game that they cannot be bothered with.

[Galas]

2 hours ago, Criti said:

 

HIM: Death is broken.  

ME: They're not bad.  I know the regeneration thing can be-

HIM: We don't like playing them.

ME: I'm sorry to hear that.

HIM: And I like your Stormcast paint job.

ME: Thanks.

HIM: We already have a Stormcast player.  Don't want too many repeat armies.

MY BUDDY: Dude.  Don't be a ******.

HIM: Whatever. *walks away*

 

I actually laugh with this!  

And I have to say this, after bringing totally fresh players to this hobby (miniature wargaming, not only GW-related stuff. GW is not a hobby! wargames is!): People can be totally d***s. I doesn't matter they are Old Guard or Fresh Baby-Born hobbyst. 

Those people can have beginning 20 years ago. Had they started yesterday, I can assure you that they behaviour will stay the same!

Its about being a social and polite person! Not age or the date where you start! 

But as I said earlier, to me this is a little alien. In the Province of Spain where I live, shops never had space to play, so 95% of the play is done in clubs or associations, so as I said earlier we had never the mentality of "support your FLGS" because we had monthly fees for our clubs, and we see the FLGS as just stores: We like to have businesh with them, because generally their managers are our friends, but if not, they need to be economically attractive to us to bother.

[Criti]

I've never thought I'd myself as privileged.

Lucky,  perhaps.

Dedicated - definitely. 

This is my hobby (miniatures and board games). I don't buy video games. I don't collect movies or books (Netflix and libraries,  bro!).  I don't soup up my car.  I don't do concerts or fancy shows, although the family and I love to hit up state parks,  but those are like $2 for parking and then free.  What money the wife and I allocate as my part of the entertainment fund after bills goes into games. 

I know that not everyone had a huge after bill budget.  Nor does everyone budget as much of their slush money to the hobby as I do. 

I do not,  however,  agree with your assessment re: shops, and here's why:

- Game shops allow us places in which to meet new people to play. 

- Game shops stay in business when they can make rent and profit

- Game shops not playing their bills shut down

- No game shop means extremely limited options to allow us to find new people to play with

50 minutes ago, DarkBlack said:

For example: my closest hobby shop (where I play) does not sell Infinity or Mantic products, despite large groups playing those games. Do we need to change what we play or do they need to change what they sell?

I don't have an answer to that - mostly because it astounds me.  In my neck of the woods it's either considered very poor form to play a game the shop doesn't sell in that shop,  or it's outright disallowed by the shops. 

I need to ask a question,  though.  And please don't take it as an offense,  because I'm genuinely curious and I know text doesn't reflect tone well - but how does your group justify playing Infinity or Mantic in shops that don't seel those products?

You're taking up selling space and not benefitting the shop in the slightest.  In fact,  you're hurting it by advertising product they can't acquire there and taking that space away from those who support the shop.  A game shop is,  after all, a business first and a hang out second.  Table space IS selling space- it advertises games in action to people. 

To me,  that'd be like going to a soccer field and setting up a game of ultimate frisbee. Onlookers can't see the field being used for its real purpose, and the soccer players can't use it now. 

[Criti]

21 minutes ago, Galas said:

 

But as I said earlier, to me this is a little alien. In the Province of Spain where I live, shops never had space to play, so 95% of the play is done in clubs or associations, so as I said earlier we had never the mentality of "support your FLGS" because we had monthly fees for our clubs, and we see the FLGS as just stores: We like to have businesh with them, because generally their managers are our friends, but if not, they need to be economically attractive to us to bother.

I would love to set up or join a club like that. I would happily pay membership fees to stop being reliant on shops.

Unfortunately,  just as in almost every other aspect of life,  my fellow American gamers tend to be so entitled and self absorbed that they see game stores as their own personal playgrounds that they have no responsibility toward maintaining.  Then they complain and act surprised when their shop goes under.

To be fair,  most of my gaming career has been here in Florida,  but judging by some of the replies,  the attitude of "I'll play how I want,  what happens to a shop is not my problem" extends beyond the borders of the Sunshine State