Inviting Newer Players, Compendium models, and the vallue of the "Old Guard"

[Criti]

In another topic about Compendium models, I made a comment that @Thomas Lyons made a wonderful response to.  Rather than continue driving that topic off topic, I wanted to start a new comversation about these issues.  The general context is whether or not we should be promoting the use of Legacy models and warscrolls.

First, my original comment:

1 hour ago, Criti said:

I don't speam for everyobe, but for me, it's all about accessibility.  Getting games with new players is such an exercise in mental fortitude and patience in my neck of the woods that I want the game to be as accessible to people as possible.  The one local shop that does any sort of AoS promotion does so as an extreme backseat to War Machine, Malifaux, X-Wing, and Kings of War.  Hell... they even promote Walking Dead: All Out War more strongly than AoS.

So the last thing I need to be promoting is hard-to-get models (especially being in an area that likes to push company specific models for games).  I want newer players to see me playing, see me stop playing to engage them, invite them to play, and then show them the model kits.  I can't properly do that if I'm running a Spearmen heavy High Elf list... or a snake/Settra list... or *insert out of print Compendium model here*.

That's a terrible way, in my mind, to invite people in.  "Yeah, this model is really good... but you can't buy one."

Below is the reply, broken into chunks so I can hopefully start a conversation about all these topics here:

I don't know that OOP models are not "inviting".  If you are trying to establish a community, using OOP models invites old warhammer players back into the hobby since it shows them they can use their old models.  I'm not sure what is less inviting: using OOP models that can't be bought off the shelf, or telling veterans they need to scrap their old model collection to start playing this game.  

This may be borderline heresy to say out loud, but I don't necessarily think we want to build new communities by drawing former players back into the fold.

It is, after all, the old guard that led to the destruction of the Old World.  And, as a 15 year player, I include myself in that group.  We were simply not generating the sales necessary to keep the game going.  Blame it on whatever you want - but at the end of the day companies cancel and/or change products based on sales.  

I think the future health of the hobby rests on the shoulders of new people who are going to buy and are enthusiastic about the hobby.  Not disgruntled people, bitter with GW, who are dusting off old toys.

[QuoteFor new players, it shows them that they can reliably go buy a used army as their starter army and get into the hobby at pennies on the dollar.  [/quote]

Pay where you play, bro.  That's all I can say there.

To me, both of these alternatives are more inviting to new players than: "Hey look at my shiny models!  Want to play a game with me?  Awesome! Go spend $300, assemble everything and maybe we can play a game in a couple weeks."

Why is that the only option?  

From the point of view of someone trying to revive/build a community right now, I feel it is firmly my responsibility to provide ways to play while someone builds an army.  It is the solemn duty of a gaming group's founders and long standing members to stand beside new players.  This can go as far as "hey!  You bought your first unit!  That's great!  Do you want any help building it?" Or it could be "hey!  Let's play a game.  I know your army isn't built yet, so while you're working on it, did you want to use one of mine?"

I've even been known to go so far as buying a starter box and giving away the components to worthy newcomers.  Granted, this was way back in 6th edition when I was unmarried,  had no kids,  and the starters were only $50 - but a gaming group serious about growth should be able to throw in together and have a starter in standby.  Or a Getting Started box, or whatever.

How to process worthiness is a whole different question - I usually based it on enthusiasm.  If someone came in,  wanted to play a bunch, was a good opponent, and started picking up and painting appropriate models (I wouldn't give Dwarf minis to a Skaven player,  for example), I'd hand it over once I felt they were invested enough to stick around. 

I would never advertise this, either.  And those who joined the game knew not to make a fuss about it to people.  I would jist play someone a bunch.  They would offen be using those starter minis.  Then, one day, we'd  wrap a game, and while we were packing up minis, I'd tell the new guy not to bother and that the group wanted him to have them as a formal welcome to the hobby.

Not once did anyone ever come in and get the impression that they have to drop $300 and come back several weeks later for a game.  We always kept minis on hand for games.

Additionally, for me, using out of print models is a great way to open new players up to the depth that the hobby has to offer.  Like the rules but can't get the model?  Awesome, lets talk conversions and explore how to make a unit of what they're looking for, likely for a lot cheaper than current NIB kits.  If they want the model, they can go to the secondary market.  This is no different than MTG or any of the other games out there with OOP stuff.  The difference with this game is that conversions allow you to field old stuff rather than being force to buy originals at the secondary market price.  

That goes back to "pay where you play" for me.  I've seen far too many friendly gaming stores die over the years to their own players.  People who would nudge newbies into buying online because it was cheaper.  I will not be "that guy."  If I'm using a mini I can't get from my local shop, I'm using it at home or at a non-shop event only.

[Double Misfire]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Warhammer-Miniature-Wargames/31398/bn_2316328/i.html

[chord]

This might just be the area I game in, but I've found new players (Myself being one) to be way less intense and more open to using non-matched play battle plans than "returning" players.  The returning players tend to be way more competitive. 

[sal4m4nd3r]

48 minutes ago, chord said:

This might just be the area I game in, but I've found new players (Myself being one) to be way less intense and more open to using non-matched play battle plans than "returning" players.  The returning players tend to be way more competitive. 

This goes back to the End Times gripes. If you dont have a points system, where the battles are even there is no way of knowing the relative strengths of each army. Simply saying bring what you have and throw it on the table is a horrible way of encouraging people to meet and play a game, or walk into a store and grab a game with a stranger. This is a huge part of the hobby. Bringing my stuff down to the shop, chatting a bit, finding a game with someone.. and asking how many points. It encourages people to pop into shopd because setting up a quick game based on the scale desired (and therefore time commitment) is essential. 

[chord]

19 minutes ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

This goes back to the End Times gripes. If you dont have a points system, where the battles are even there is no way of knowing the relative strengths of each army. Simply saying bring what you have and throw it on the table is a horrible way of encouraging people to meet and play a game, or walk into a store and grab a game with a stranger. This is a huge part of the hobby. Bringing my stuff down to the shop, chatting a bit, finding a game with someone.. and asking how many points. It encourages people to pop into shopd because setting up a quick game based on the scale desired (and therefore time commitment) is essential. 

I guess, but I think if the two players (or more) are flexible it's ok.  Halfway through my last battle we realized my opponent was way more stacked, so he brought up, why not call in a few reserve units, and then we picked some fair units to bring back.  Worked out well. 

[DrDemento]

Not sure the old guard aren't the players we want is a fair or appropriate rationale at all.  I'm sure there is huge variation in who the old guard are, what they want or are willing to do or come around to, etc.  Pasting my reply from the original post here because i think it is still relevant and gives an example.

 

1 hour ago, DrDemento said:

My "other" vote was for as maximum freedom to use any appropriate model for compendium special characters (converted, any of the various official model versions, etc.).

this is most inclusive, gives the most options for list diversity in tournaments, and keeps old armies interesting at least until new battletomes give options that might reduce inclinations to use legacy heroes (and their pseudo-battalion like abilities where battalions are lacking - like Duardin/dwarfs).

The fluff concerns can be addressed in any number of imagination based scenarios suggested above (reincarnation, history repeats itself, etc.).  Why can't I have a disposed dwarf ranger hero who gives an infiltrate and healing ability? A slayer hero with the commensurate synergies, etc.?

my perspective is our group has returned to fantasy after 30 years!  Had a bit of 40k off and on since then but ultimately collapsed under the same rules burden that killed fantasy for us years ago. Since last year dusting off our old regiments of renown (Bugmans!), we've painted stuff that's been in blisters since 1987, AND bought and painted tons of new stuff - Fyreslayers, ironjawz, nurgle, aelves, dragons, terrain, Ogres, etc. 

options, freedom, imagination, inclusivity should be the guiding principles in my opinion.

thanks!

 

[Criti]

Perhaps I should have been more specific or better defined "old guard."

When I say "old guard," I'm geberally referring to the guy who still uses miniatures from multiple editions ago and more or less refuses to purchase the new thing because "they already got my money.  They're just greedy."

I consider myself an old timer game-wise, but not an Old Guard.  AoS has led me to spend more in the last 1.5 years than I have in the last 5!  

Those are the ones we need.  The ones who buy in with enthusiasm and, as much as some disagree with me, those who let their wallets support the game.

[Oppenheimer]

I would buy minis if they actually sold any new elves, free guild, seraphon, grots, Ogors, or death units. It's all well and good if you're into Sylvaneth, Fyreslayers, Ironjaws, Chaos (except Slanneesh) or stormcast but if you're not there isn't anything new to buy.

[Thomas Lyons]

Criti,  thanks for starting a new topic on this.  I think this is definitely a worthwhile conversation to be had.

For me, I'm interested in getting ANY new people into the hobby, no matter what depth they end up engaging in.  This means that I'm interesting in strengthening gaming communities, no matter whether they dive right in with the starter and hundreds of dollars worth of purchases, or whether they're using ghetto old models and never buy a single new model.  I firmly believe this is the way forward for 2 reasons.  

First, it amplifies the signal.  Players only stick with games that are being played.  I'm interested in the long term health of this game, which means people need to be playing it.  Even if I bring player A into the game and they don't spend a dime on new models, player A might bring Players B, C, D, E, F and G into the game, half of which might go out and buy a new army.  So, rather than reject player A because they aren't in a place to be dropping lots of cash on the hobby, player A is embraced with the hope of evangelistic expansion.  The alternative is, you drive off player A, and Players B-G never hear about the game and so never buy their 3 or more armies.  

Second, the longer one is in the hobby, the more invested they become, and the more likely they are to spend money if they find it is a worthwhile pursuit.  If you drive them off, they never have a chance to become deeply invested, or to be present when that sweet new Steamhead release drops, which they do feel is worth dropping the cash for.  

Sociologically, creating a bounded set does not help growing games.  I think the compendium scrolls and all the similar things to encourage play should be embraced.

[Galas]

I always see as irony that, In a shrinking hobby like this (Lets face it, miniatures wargames is shrinking against videogames AND boardgames. Those dammed dice rollers! Pre-painted miniatures?! URGH!) people is alwais willing to put restrictions and restrictions and "newcomer hostile" measures. 

I'm totally in aggrement with Thomas Lyons (Who casually happens to had a very good taste for forums avatars) 

I started my groupd of friends by myself. At the start everyone buys second hand (Even today I do it in specific cases!), or play with my models. But you know what? As Thomas Lyons says, maybe one player buy 90% of his models second hand, but I have yet to encounter a person that invest in the hobby and don't bring minimun 1-2 other persons. 

Its a mounth to mounth work! Please, don't restrict people based in elitist measures as "Pay here" or "Don't buy second hand" (All of this in a reasonable standart: If a person buy 0 models, just talk bad of the game, is toxic, don't bring friends, etc... that person is actually negative to the grow of the community) 

Wargames function a little like Free to play games. The companys want to find the "whales". You have 10 people that spend 50$ every 3-4 months? No problem! They are still offering gaming oportunities to that guy that come to the store and put 500$ every month! Its a win-win situation. 

More people playing, even if they are not the "perfect" customer, is better to the community. 

Remember the most important rule: We aren't GW. We shouldn't see other people like wallets with legs. We should see them as friends and members of the hobby! And you don't say you friend "Go play to your home alone because you don't buy this lovely model into this store!"

[Double Misfire]

1 hour ago, Criti said:

Perhaps I should have been more specific or better defined "old guard."

When I say "old guard," I'm geberally referring to the guy who still uses miniatures from multiple editions ago and more or less refuses to purchase the new thing because "they already got my money.  They're just greedy."

I consider myself an old timer game-wise, but not an Old Guard.  AoS has led me to spend more in the last 1.5 years than I have in the last 5!  

Those are the ones we need.  The ones who buy in with enthusiasm and, as much as some disagree with me, those who let their wallets support the game.

I don't use old models represented by legacy warscrolls because I'm miserly, I use them because I think they're coooooool. 

 

 

[Criti]

The store is the difference.

I would never recommend buying GW Direct.  

And in my gaming group run out of my house, anything goes.

But at the local shop?  It's absolutely our responsibility to encourage people to buy there.  Especially at shops that don't charge for gaming space.  Is how we keep our shops open.  In my 15 years of gaming, I've watched 10 shops with great people sink.  Many to the rise of the secondary market.   I don't want to see it again

[Galas]

Oh, Throgg... one of these models that you say "SO COOL, someday I'll buy it" and then PLAM. You pay 100 dollars in ebay or...  (Thats the reason I rush to buy 3 Krell's (Well, now Blight King with GreatAxe or something like that)


EDIT: In response to Criti: I play in a club where we had a mensual fee we use to buy terrain pieces, pay rent, buy "prices" in local shops to Tournaments, or buying "starter armies" of 1.000 points each, so new people can use any army they want to try!

We had special discounts with our local shops so actually to us is cheaper to buy here that Online, and when we buy second hand is just the tipical bargain we found, OOP models, etc...

But I can totally understand your feeling. I just say that i don't see as healty going from an extrem (Don't buying anithing from your local shops) to the other extreme (ONLY PLAY WITH WHAT YOU BOUGHT HERE) 

If someone has a problem understanding my please, say It so I can try to explain my point better!

[Oppenheimer]

Ah questing knights, so flavourful. At least Total War is doing Bretonnia proud.

[Criti]

13 minutes ago, Galas said:

EDIT: In response to Criti: I play in a club where we had a mensual fee we use to buy terrain pieces, pay rent, buy "prices" in local shops to Tournaments, or buying "starter armies" of 1.000 points each, so new people can use any army they want to try!

But I can totally understand your feeling. I just say that i don't see as healty going from an extrem (Don't buying anithing from your local shops) to the other extreme (ONLY PLAY WITH WHAT YOU BOUGHT HERE)

To the first paragraph.  I like what you're saying.  But in my neck of the woods,  that feels like a pipe dream at best... if only I were positioned better geographically to hobby...

To the second quoted paragraph - "play only what you can get here" is more accurate.  It certainly wouldn't help the shop to drop Tomb Kings week after week and get people excited about them.  If your local store allows non-GW minis and sells them, that's okay too.  Because you're still supporting local.

"Don't buy from your local shop" - that confuses me.  I promote buying exclusively from them rather than online or from GW.  Unless your local shop is GW... which again, is alien to me.  I've had had a GW store within a reasonable driving distance in my life.

[Galas]

6 minutes ago, Criti said:

 

"Don't buy from your local shop" - that confuses me.  I promote buying exclusively from them rather than online or from GW.  Unless your local shop is GW... which again, is alien to me.  I've had had a GW store within a reasonable driving distance in my life.

Sorry. I was saying that because you say that the people you know literally never buy from the stores they play in. That was the extreme that I was refering. 

[Criti]

2 minutes ago, Galas said:

Sorry. I was saying that because you say that the people you know literally never buy from the stores they play in. That was the extreme that I was refering. 

Those are the people I don't think we need anymore.  They're no longer helping that wonderful, mystical, unreachable thing called "the hobby..."

I also find that a lot of those types, at least on my area, are not very new player friendly.  They don't want to run demos.  They don't want to play less than whatever their preferred points value is, and they spend more time complaining than playing.

The hobby is not very healthy in my area (probably why I prefer my house group to my local shops).  That probably has a big impact on how I see things. 

[Galas]

As Ortega Y Gasset said:

" I am I and my circumstances " 

As a Greenskin first world hobbyst identified as a fungus (  )I know I had privileges that not everyone has, thats one of the reasons I never judge people for they viewpoints, at least not before tryng to put me in their circumstances.  

Believe me, I had lived some years in citys where their community was... urgh. I tried to make them more friendly but... as I say always: If you work for others, you need to work from a place of power, or it will be inutile work. 

As the president of my club I'm always looking to attract more players and make the hobby place a place where everyone has a place.
But at the same time, I had the power to put in place the people that is toxic. or just ban them. If you find a toxic person, point it to the store manager and he says "meh" because that guy is a regular/friend of the manager... Run from that store! Theres nothing you can do to change that.

[Thomas Lyons]

54 minutes ago, Criti said:

The store is the difference.

I would never recommend buying GW Direct.  

And in my gaming group run out of my house, anything goes.

But at the local shop?  It's absolutely our responsibility to encourage people to buy there.  Especially at shops that don't charge for gaming space.  Is how we keep our shops open.  In my 15 years of gaming, I've watched 10 shops with great people sink.  Many to the rise of the secondary market.   I don't want to see it again

That's funny, because despite having a GW store a 1 mile from my house, I find myself ordering GW direct fairly frequently.  For my situation, I have 3 gaming stores within a 15 minute drive of my house.  One is a GW store (the closest), and the other two are FLGS.  All of them carry GW significant GW stock.  Who do I support in this situation?  

The reality is that I personal spread out my spending.  I am friends with the staff of every store and I want all of them to succeed.  As such, I spread my spending around to all three stores.  But, I would be lying if I told you I also wasn't involved very actively in the secondary market of buying and reselling old models both locally and online.  But doing so allows me to have tons of extra models to help get people started into the hobby.  My secondary market dealing lets me get people into the hobby with starter armies for pennies on the dollar, and these people have consequently frequented the retail stores buying product at MSRP.  I don't think these spheres have to be mutually exclusive.  

 Creating bounded sets, restrictions of entry, and limitations on how people are allowed to have fun only detract from community building efforts in my experience.  This is why I've been against the exclusion of Compendium scrolls, the exclusive move to round bases, and push to soft-incentivize stock paint schemes.  All of these are bounded set decisions that make a strong delineation between the "us" and the "them."  They say, "To be 'in', you must do x, y, and z.  Otherwise, you aren't one of us."  These strong bounded sets may create a strong sense of solidarity and in-group identity but it is always done at the expense of the "other".  It is ironic that it is always  the "other" that grows the game; the very thing that we work so hard to drive off is that which is necessary for the hobby to grow and expand.     

At the end of the day, I'm interested in the long game here, both for the company and for the player base.  I want both to flourish.  Its the reason why @Vincent Venturella and I do Warhammer Weekly each week: we love the hobby and we want to stir up that enthusiasm and passion in others.  I'm for any initiative that is going to grow the game and encourage others to find this wonderful hobby of ours.

[Criti]

I think you and I, @Thomas Lyons have the same goal.  And I think we have seen different things work in our respective areas.

I will never disrespect a brother-in-arms who wants to further the hobby, regardless of how differently we approach it.

 

[wayniac]

Personally, I've seen a ton of stores live and die.  I'd rather foster a store-agnostic group that didn't care about playing at one particular store.  I've seen way too much "gang mentality" whereby one store considers an area their "turf" and in fact I've seen "turf wars" erupt between rival game stores when someone dares to mention that there's another place to play; accusations of "stealing customers" and the like abound.  I would much rather have a group that chooses to play at one, or all, or none of the game stores than one that only plays at one store out of some weird sense of loyalty to a business they aren't invested in.

[Criti]

It's not so much loyalty to the business for me as it is to the play space.

Sure,  I have my home table - but I'm not gathering new players with that.  I need neutral ground where I can meet people and build those relationships to invite them to the non-store group

[SuperHappyTime]

Okay, but it's not just the spoiled old guard we got rid of, its also the old mentalities that have stuck around too. There was an early post here on TGA about what points level should we play at since Matched Play showed up and the first two opinions were 2,000/2,500 points. Is the way to grow a struggling game by returning to the usual ****** that got WFB sent down a river in the first place? No.

I'm going to propose GW do something that by all accounts is crazy and insane. I think GW stores should drop most of the rules on what gets played in their stores. Let people bring competitive models, play Warmahordes, etc. Let them play with half built or unpainted models. Restrict nothing, but ban the people if they become complete jerks to staff and customers. When you sell only AoS/40K/LotR, when you hold only those events, players will only show up to play and buy things primarily from there.

This is pretty much our tiny local scene anyway. The owner has a little bit of PP stuff at MSRP, but I haven't seen it touched in months, or even seen a game played in a year or two, minus the league that We Players got started. 40K is played almost every Saturday because people started showing up regularly (Sunday he's closed, and only the occasional Magic tournament causes deviations to this).

And another thing, I don't know where my nearest GT would be. I know I've ranted about the old/tournament mentality, but having no/not a part of the mentality feels way more depressing than any bad mentality you people seem to hate.

[Riavan]

I'm pretty new. Still building and painting my starter armies. I went to a board game convention recently which has a lot of wargaming and aos. I tried to watch a few games, but a lot of people did not seem very happy to be playing compared to the guys I see in the actual GW stores.

[AGPO]

If someone has models, is friendly and wants to play, why refuse them?

if I bought 200 round bases from my FLGS to rebase my tomb kings am I not encouraging the local scene more than someone who picks up all their stormcast stuff on eBay? 

Not everyone plays the same way. I play in a small club that likes narrative and the last time I played points movement trays were still a thing. I have good friends who love the tournament scene and comp every army they play. We get on because we have lots else in common and because we are "grown ups" who accept not everyone has to conform to *our* way of playing with toy soldiers.