What units are the most overcosted death units? How should GHB2 fix death?

[WillofNagash]

I was wondering on peoples opinion on what is over costed in the generals handbook for death? Why would make it come competitive?

i personally think the morghasts are overpriced at 240.

and nagash is almost unplayable at his current points.

what do you guys think?

[Uveron]

I don't feel they are overpriced. 

The Limit on summoning is kinda the issue. If we could use Summoning Magic to add dead models back to a unit (Like back in WFB) then I think he points would be more fair.... A slight premium is paid for the ability to summon. (or at least that is my take..) 

[Vasshpit]

I feel that the two Wight Kings from deathrattle are over costed. They are decent but I feel should be a bit cheaper like 80-100.

[TerrorPenguin]

Depends what your yardstick is - Morghasts are overcosted compared to Kurnoth Hunters with scythes.

But if they go up to 240 - well I'd still argue they're better than Morghasts (those rerollable saves) but it would be somewhere closer.

All of the deathlords are overpriced - the 4+ save makes them very fragile especially if the opposing army has any shooting.

Most of the rest is ok - the Mourngul might be a bit under but not much -440 maybe. Bloodknights don't seem great for their points but others rate them highly

[Ao_Death]

Morghasts certainly come to mind. Black Knights really need to be at 100 pts. Black coach, fell bats and bat swarms perhaps? (No experience with these)

I would also argue blood knights should come down.

[Andreas]

Nagash for 700pt and Morghast priced at 100pt for one is something I would like to see just to be able to do a Nagash deathlord list with a 1000pt reserve pool and use summoning in an interesting way. 

[Bradifer]

I think to do this best you need to try and ignore the rules and alegiance bonuses etc. for most units, then compare bland units based on their role.

Maybe even consider wounds, but don't start stat tracking.

 

So to compare something, I think you need basic roles:

Wizard

Monster

Monster w/ Rider

Battleline Troop (Appx 10 Models)

Elite Troops (Appx 2-5 Models)

Ranged Artillery/Ranged Unit

 

[Centuryslayer]

Wight King needs either a pts drop to 80-100 or be given something a bit more interesting, right now he's only good for the banner. 

Black knights could stand to lose 20 pts, I would be much more inclined to bring them if that's the case.

[Shankzalot]

Didn't death place 4th at LVO?  There was a Nagash list there wrecking as well.  Death could use some point adjustments, but I don't see a real issue with them as a whole.  Combine some of hte factions to make them playable (nighthaunt comes to mind) but morghasts are good where they are at.  9" move, that flys, 6 wounds, bravery 10, ignores mortal wounds on a 5+, 3 atks, 3+/3+ -2 rend and flat 3 damage.  Compared to a khunter?  5" nonflying move (you can jump through wildwoods but risk losing a turn) 1 less wound than morghasts, no mortal wound defense, reroll save at the cose of losing 2" on pile in, definite risk management there.  Same # of atks, same wound roll, same rend, but a variable D3 damage as opposed to a flat 3?  The issue isnt morghasts are over cost, it's khunters are under.  Combine morghasts with the spells you have access to in death, a 4 model unit of morghasts in nigh unkillable.  Lets say you run neferata and she casts mystic shield on them (3+ save now) and dark mist, ignoring rend.  Now you have a unit with 12 atks, 3+/3+ -2 rend, 3 damage that ignores red adn mortal wounds on a 5+.  Death isn't about how strong an individual unit is, it's about how strong they are when working together.

 

[WillofNagash]

12 minutes ago, Shankzalot said:

Didn't death place 4th at LVO?  There was a Nagash list there wrecking as well.  Death could use some point adjustments, but I don't see a real issue with them as a whole.  Combine some of hte factions to make them playable (nighthaunt comes to mind) but morghasts are good where they are at.  9" move, that flys, 6 wounds, bravery 10, ignores mortal wounds on a 5+, 3 atks, 3+/3+ -2 rend and flat 3 damage.  Compared to a khunter?  5" nonflying move (you can jump through wildwoods but risk losing a turn) 1 less wound than morghasts, no mortal wound defense, reroll save at the cose of losing 2" on pile in, definite risk management there.  Same # of atks, same wound roll, same rend, but a variable D3 damage as opposed to a flat 3?  The issue isnt morghasts are over cost, it's khunters are under.  Combine morghasts with the spells you have access to in death, a 4 model unit of morghasts in nigh unkillable.  Lets say you run neferata and she casts mystic shield on them (3+ save now) and dark mist, ignoring rend.  Now you have a unit with 12 atks, 3+/3+ -2 rend, 3 damage that ignores red adn mortal wounds on a 5+.  Death isn't about how strong an individual unit is, it's about how strong they are when working together.

 

Tomb Kings placed 4th at the LVO. I'm not trying to debate what is or isn't over priced here brother. Just say what you this is ober or under priced. And yes all true, about a unit of 4 being unkillable if buffed by nefrata, but so is anything else in death for 480 points. I can't think of any unit that wouldn't be.

i never thought about the Wight King being overpriced but yeah, compared to the other heroes, around 100 would probably be right.

[Shankzalot]

My intention wasn't to start an argument, my apologies if it came off as that.  I was just trying to say that I don't think that too many death units are over cost, due to the way that the synergies they get when combined.  I do think that factions need to be combined (why is a mortis engine not nighthaunt?), and some heroes Wight King is a good example need to come down.  I think Hexwraiths are over cost for what they do, Black knights should be brought down, Blood Knights could be 240 instead of 260.  Lowering them to0 much risks them being ridiculous.  I think bumping Grave Guard to 120pts and 10 model min would be awesome.  Death is in a decent place though, just a couple tweeks and it's perfect. 

[Mortarch]

I would like to see Nagash come down to 700, particularly if there's no change to summoning rules. If the WFB summon to replenish a unit was a thing... then MAYBE 900 is ok.. 800 probably would be better. Simply untakeable at the moment. If Nagash's warscroll was edited to delete "on the table" then he's worth all his 900 Points... plus it fits hits fluff better.

The deathlords should all be in and around Arkhans cost.

Morghasts, I would see them drop to 100 each. I understand the argument about KHunters being undercosted, but still thing these guys need a slight drop.

Wight king should drop to 80-100.

The demo points for the GHB2 for Tomb Kings seemed fair. Possibly slightly too much of an increase of some of them, but swings and roundabouts.

Archers should come down, for their lack of accuracy, and non general battleline status, too pricey. Would say 80 for 10 and be in line with Skeleton Warriors.

Black Coach is total waste of points in my opinion at the moment.

 

[TerrorPenguin]

1 hour ago, Shankzalot said:

Didn't death place 4th at LVO?  There was a Nagash list there wrecking as well.  Death could use some point adjustments, but I don't see a real issue with them as a whole.  Combine some of hte factions to make them playable (nighthaunt comes to mind) but morghasts are good where they are at.  9" move, that flys, 6 wounds, bravery 10, ignores mortal wounds on a 5+, 3 atks, 3+/3+ -2 rend and flat 3 damage.  Compared to a khunter?  5" nonflying move (you can jump through wildwoods but risk losing a turn) 1 less wound than morghasts, no mortal wound defense, reroll save at the cose of losing 2" on pile in, definite risk management there.  Same # of atks, same wound roll, same rend, but a variable D3 damage as opposed to a flat 3?  The issue isnt morghasts are over cost, it's khunters are under.  Combine morghasts with the spells you have access to in death, a 4 model unit of morghasts in nigh unkillable.  Lets say you run neferata and she casts mystic shield on them (3+ save now) and dark mist, ignoring rend.  Now you have a unit with 12 atks, 3+/3+ -2 rend, 3 damage that ignores red adn mortal wounds on a 5+.  Death isn't about how strong an individual unit is, it's about how strong they are when working together.

 

Agree, but to get that unit you've spent 480 points on the archai and 440 on neferrata with a chance those spells don't go off or are unbound. Kurnoth Hunters rerolls always go off and can be undone in the next charge phase so their loss of pile in is not a huge deal. 

They also have mortal wound output. 

And the other thing is you're comparing model for model not unit for unit. Morghasts come in units of two which means each of those six wounds costs you 120 points. Hunters come in units of three which means 5 wounds costs you 60 points. Morghasts are 20 points per wound Hunters are 12.

That said, I think we will see both of them at the 220 point mark come the next GHB

[AverageBoss]

3 hours ago, Centuryslayer said:

Wight King needs either a pts drop to 80-100 or be given something a bit more interesting, right now he's only good for the banner. 

Black knights could stand to lose 20 pts, I would be much more inclined to bring them if that's the case.

I would honestly rather see Black Knights go back to being Wights on horseback with a points increase if necessary, than seeing them stay the same and just go down in points. I miss my mounted wights .

[Bradifer]

3 hours ago, Bradifer said:

So to compare something, I think you need basic roles:

Wizard

Monster

Monster w/ Rider

Battleline Troop (Appx 10 Models)

Elite Troops (Appx 2-5 Models)

Ranged Artillery/Ranged Unit

Let me just quote myself here ad see if we can compare things more easily:

 

Elite Troops (Appx 2-5 Models)

 

• 3 x Stormfiends (300)
• 5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
• 3 x Crypt Horrors (140)
• 2 x Morghast Archai (240)
• 3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (160)
• 5 x Wrathmongers (180)
• 5 x Skullreapers (140)
• 5 x Paladin Retributors (220)
• 3 x Kroxigor (180)
• 3 x Kurnoth Hunters (180)
• 3 x Necropolis Knights (160) --> (240)

Can we skip over the obviously underpriced Kurnoth Hunters and compare Morghast to some of the other elite units?

And if I can interject my own opinion. I think Death has its own strengths, but its weaknesses certainly seem to be:

• Over-reliance on Hero Units for synergy or to do the heavy lifting (I.e. VLoZD as main hammer).
• Summoning is still bad.
• Regeneration as a mechanic, but no other synergy or ways to influence it (i.e. a spell that regens 2D6 skeletons from a unit etc...)
• Lack of reliable Mortal Wound Output (Many armies seem to be primarily countered by Mortal Wounds. Death has one Arcane Bolt and trying to land 6+ to hit with spirits. Keeping in mind some units can give -1 to hit, preventing mortal wound possibility of spirits, looking at you Durthu).
• No reliable ranged units. Technically one if you count Tomb Kings Screaming Skull Catapult, but I feel those are on the way out...

Really though, no ranged and bad mortal wounds really limits your options if you're trying to be a balanced take-all-corners list.

[TerrorPenguin]

Lack of batallions is also an issue - but that won't get fixed in GHB.

Ive said it before, but if we're not going to get a new battletome this year then a supplement with some Battalions, spells etc would do death a world of good

[Andreas]

6 hours ago, Bradifer said:

 

And if I can interject my own opinion. I think Death has its own strengths, but its weaknesses certainly seem to be:

• Over-reliance on Hero Units for synergy or to do the heavy lifting (I.e. VLoZD as main hammer).
• Summoning is still bad.
• Regeneration as a mechanic, but no other synergy or ways to influence it (i.e. a spell that regens 2D6 skeletons from a unit etc...)
• Lack of reliable Mortal Wound Output (Many armies seem to be primarily countered by Mortal Wounds. Death has one Arcane Bolt and trying to land 6+ to hit with spirits. Keeping in mind some units can give -1 to hit, preventing mortal wound possibility of spirits, looking at you Durthu).
• No reliable ranged units. Technically one if you count Tomb Kings Screaming Skull Catapult, but I feel those are on the way out...

Really though, no ranged and bad mortal wounds really limits your options if you're trying to be a balanced take-all-corners list.

I agree with this list but I am not sure they should fix all of them. Over-reliance on Heroes (or strong hero choices) feels for me how death should play. No ranged I am also ok with. Summoning is  bit week, maybe they could fix it with allegance abilities to make it more reliable, for example plus 3 on a summoning roll if you have some specific general or death allegance. I am don't think they should go back to the SCGT-comp (reduced points for summoning) It can easiliy be abused and might create a lot of very simular "net lists" to abuse it.  But I think the biggest problem is the lack of reliable mortal wound output, it doesn't feel like Death and it is a huge weekness in a take-all-comers list.

[Jamopower]

6 hours ago, Bradifer said:

 

And if I can interject my own opinion. I think Death has its own strengths, but its weaknesses certainly seem to be:

• Over-reliance on Hero Units for synergy or to do the heavy lifting (I.e. VLoZD as main hammer).
• Summoning is still bad.
• Regeneration as a mechanic, but no other synergy or ways to influence it (i.e. a spell that regens 2D6 skeletons from a unit etc...)
• Lack of reliable Mortal Wound Output (Many armies seem to be primarily countered by Mortal Wounds. Death has one Arcane Bolt and trying to land 6+ to hit with spirits. Keeping in mind some units can give -1 to hit, preventing mortal wound possibility of spirits, looking at you Durthu).
• No reliable ranged units. Technically one if you count Tomb Kings Screaming Skull Catapult, but I feel those are on the way out...

Really though, no ranged and bad mortal wounds really limits your options if you're trying to be a balanced take-all-corners list.

Aren't the two bolded points something that have been defining factors of the Undead in all of their Warhammer incarnations? On the other hand, they are missing the combination of fear, immunity to psychology and (broken) free summoning that have made tham always a really powerful army.

[Bradifer]

1 hour ago, Andreas said:

Over-reliance on Heroes (or strong hero choices) feels for me how death should play.

No ranged I am also ok with.

But I think the biggest problem is the lack of reliable mortal wound output, it doesn't feel like Death and it is a huge weekness in a take-all-comers list.

 

1 hour ago, Jamopower said:

Aren't the two bolded points something that have been defining factors of the Undead in all of their Warhammer incarnations?

• Over-reliance on Hero Unit
• No reliable ranged units. 

On the other hand, they are missing the combination of fear, immunity to psychology and (broken) free summoning that have made tham always a really powerful army.

I never played Fantasy previous to this. My only other tabletop games were 40K, Heroscape, and RPG games like DnD etc... I've played a ton of card games and strategy games though.

I can see if they want to push Death away from ranged units (derpy skeletons too stupid to aim a Repeater Crossbow etc...). I just wish their other mechanics were more prevalent or impactful (regeneration/summoning/powerful hero units/non-crappy bravery attacks/transforming enemy models into vampires or other undead units). I would agree that lack of reliable mortal wounds is going to be an issue for any army that wants to be balanced and competitive.

I don't want to spam a mortal wound model like Stormfiends/Bloodletters/Thundertusks/Starsoul Mace Paladins, I just want it as an option so I can rock-paper-scissors my way through most fights. Mortal Wounds are an excellent design, both thematically and from a gamer's POV. They let stuff die quickly, in a wargame. We've got to be able to get some fun ideas for ranged options/mortal wounds. 

Here's a few ideas:

• Undead archers
• Thrown/launched jars/bottles of acid/poison
• Bone Spear a'la Diablo 2
• Artillery that launches 'Shades' at enemy units by transforming a zombie etc... into an evil spirit that blankets enemies in darkness (-1 to hit, or other.)
• Make banshee scream useful, maybe less bravery based
• Frost Blast from Frost Wyrm or something like a cold-ish bone dragon
• Spirit Drain or Life Drain attack via weapon/staff rather than spell (See Alarielle or Spirit of Durthu)
• Weapon/staff that uses raw power of nagash for 'darkness' or 'spirit' attack
• A Fear spell that slows, roots, or moved enemies in another direction
• Obsidian Statue from Warcraft 3 - A status that can shoot, or transforms when it's forced into melee (aka being looked at Weeping Angels style)
• Petrifying Gaze
• Boiling/Rotting Blood
• Corpse Explosion
• Grasp of Undead (arms come up from the ground)
• General sacrifice mechanic where you sac zombies/skeletons/etc... to use their energy/fluff reason or literally catapult them.

It's clear-ish from rumors that Death is unlikely to get a battletome until Halloween 2017, late 2017, or even 2018. So we won't be seeing any re-designs until then, so I guess this was just a creative rant

However back on topic with points cost, Death heroes are powerful but susceptible to mortal wound and ranged spam, or just dying in 1 turn. If anything the Moungul should go up significantly, and drop the Mortarchs by 20/40/60 or something. Lack seeing Mannfred because of goofy rules not letting your character-general equip the super useful artefact and command trait, so everyone takes VLoZD as their general instead.

So maybe that is something they can look at. Letting Named Heroes as Generals use Command Traits + Artefacts, so Mannfred and Neferata can stop taking orders from Vampire Lord # 27.

[WillofNagash]

I love all your ideas!

Brilliant!

[WillofNagash]

I just remembered playing against Ironguts. So I looked up their stats.

Holy ******, now I remember why I thought they were hard.

3 guys for 220, 10 attacks that do 3 damage each... 12 wounds as well.

the only thing making them worse is maybe the 5+ mortal wound save the morghasts archai have, and the rend is -1 instead of -2.

Even if the 2 units were the same the Ironguts would be better.

or am I missing something?

[zachariah_d]

I agree with this list but I am not sure they should fix all of them.

I just want to remind everyone, Death is a GRAND Alliance, not a faction. Each death faction can have a different defining charactaristic. Deathlords, deathamges, and death rattle should certainly rely on hero's, mabey even soulblight (but blood knights are one unit that is good without). But that doesn't mean other or NEW death factions can't have other themes. We are a GRAND Alliance with less units then order has battalions, and that won't change for a few years , but let's not limit our imagination [emoji1].


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[AverageBoss]

8 hours ago, Jamopower said:

Aren't the two bolded points something that have been defining factors of the Undead in all of their Warhammer incarnations? On the other hand, they are missing the combination of fear, immunity to psychology and (broken) free summoning that have made tham always a really powerful army.

Actually, back when Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings were a single army (Undead), we had access to Skeleton Crossbows, Skeleton Archers, and Skeleton manned catapults. When the two armies were split, the crossbows disappeared, and the TKs took all the other ranged units with them, eventually gaining more through skeleton chariots, horse archers, and ushabti.

[David Griffin]

I think Death suffers less from overcosted units than it does from lack of updated rules, battalions, and "free" synergy that other, newer armies have access to. Also, just prefacing that I'm leaving TK out of this discussion.

Many of the strongest armies in AoS are built around cheap, consistent synergy where heroes or battalions bestow abilities on other units without any roll of a dice - think Blood Secrators, Warchanters, etc. Death has precious little of this type of synergy and virtually no battalions outside of FEC, and I'd argue that FEC even feels out of date at this point. Some of the best buffing abilities, like the double pile in, require a cast, and we all know those are far from automatic.

After playing in a tournament this weekend where I ran up against -1 and -2 to hit Sylvaneth, you really feel the mortal wound deficiency. Units like Spirit Hosts become altogether irrelevant, and monsters that hit on 4+ (VLoZD) lose their teeth as well. It's even more frustrating when you realize you have nothing in your toolbox to counter with.

I'm not saying that Death can't be competitive, but I think they really struggle against top tier armies because they lack many of the tools that come so easily to other factions and grand alliances by way of synergy.

[Ao_Death]

17 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

I would honestly rather see Black Knights go back to being Wights on horseback with a points increase if necessary, than seeing them stay the same and just go down in points. I miss my mounted wights .

I agree but even a marginal buff to their stat line puts them on the brink of overpowered when combined with settra and necro. At the very least they would overlap with blood knights. 

I think 100 pts is the sweet spot for them. They compete nicely with skeleton horsemen at that point level.