Nevvermore Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 8 minutes ago, daedalus81 said: The Cabal behind the sinister changes in GHB2 is revealed. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/02/09/generals-handbook-ii-behind-the-scenes/ Or not, since they aren't actually named in the article! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimli Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 good to see they took FB into account and play testing and looked at all warscrolls... Hopefully it comes out awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Lyons Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 29 minutes ago, daedalus81 said: The Cabal behind the sinister changes in GHB2 is revealed. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/02/09/generals-handbook-ii-behind-the-scenes/ From the page: "After the excitement of Friday night had worn off, the hard work began. The first task was to look at every Pitched Battle profile in the game and identify any changes we wanted to make. Some points went up, some went down; you’ll have to wait until the book is released to see the the full fruits of our labor...The guys worked into the night, led by Jervis Johnson himself, looking at list after list of numbers in conjunction with feedback from all over the Warhammer Age of Sigmar community including thousands of Facebook comments – from when we asked what you’d like to see changed – as well as hundreds of emails from players and tournament organisers from all over the world."So all the hundreds of scrolls were looked at in a day based on the experiences of these individuals and the feedback from the thousands of Facebook posts and hundreds of emails, which they also read in that one day. The next day, a handful of games were played (6 forces per game, maybe 4 games played each, so 24 test games) and some adjustments to the points were made.Awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauche Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 12 minutes ago, Thomas Lyons said: From the page: "After the excitement of Friday night had worn off, the hard work began. The first task was to look at every Pitched Battle profile in the game and identify any changes we wanted to make. Some points went up, some went down; you’ll have to wait until the book is released to see the the full fruits of our labor...The guys worked into the night, led by Jervis Johnson himself, looking at list after list of numbers in conjunction with feedback from all over the Warhammer Age of Sigmar community including thousands of Facebook comments – from when we asked what you’d like to see changed – as well as hundreds of emails from players and tournament organisers from all over the world."So all the hundreds of scrolls were looked at in a day based on their experiences and the feedback from the thousands of Facebook posts and hundreds of emails they also read, in that day. The next day, a handful of games were played (6 forces per game, maybe 4 games played each, so 24 test games) and some adjustments to the points were made.Awesome. I do hope it was more than that, otherwise yeah that shakes my faith a bit. Still waiting on the final product though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Lyons Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 4 minutes ago, Gauche said: I do hope it was more than that, otherwise yeah that shakes my faith a bit. Still waiting on the final product though. They've likely done some testing of some of these numbers since then. I would expect so at least. But if it works as per most NDAs, it would have to be games between these individuals. I can't imagine in their one day of games that more than one or two of the handful of forces played were full TK or Fyreslayers. This would be simply true based on the number of games played based on the whole of the system needing tested. Even if those forces did get testing, it wasn't likely done with more than one or two lists at that. Luckily SCGT will allow people to provide feedback based on actual play. We just need to either convince people to buy and paint entire armies (Fyreslayers) or to take TK units at the new values so that we can get some substantive data to evaluate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 19 minutes ago, Thomas Lyons said: So all the hundreds of scrolls were looked at in a day based on the experiences of these individuals and the feedback from the thousands of Facebook posts and hundreds of emails, which they also read in that one day. The next day, a handful of games were played (6 forces per game, maybe 4 games played each, so 24 test games) and some adjustments to the points were made.Awesome. Oh I know. I was just making a silly jab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobgoblinclub Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 I'm really disappointed reading this thread. GW have made some amazing changes in the last few years, really amazing changes. The fact that they're going to constantly update the game to maintain some form of balance has to be the greatest of them all! Of all threads, this thread should be a celebration of how cool AoS is, and yet, it undoubtedly makes for worst reading on all of TGA. This here Warhammer is a dice game. Just a silly dice game. We are all just big kids. That being so doesn't mean we should be scratching and pulling hair. Granted, we all need a moan now and then, but moan to your friends, in the comfort of your own Whatsapp groups. Don't post rants for the world to read. They're only going to get people down and cause friction. TGA has maintained its positivity this long. May this thread serve as a warning to us all. If we go the way of Warseer etc, there may be no coming back...dun...dun...durrrr... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauche Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 12 minutes ago, hobgoblinclub said: I'm really disappointed reading this thread. GW have made some amazing changes in the last few years, really amazing changes. The fact that they're going to constantly update the game to maintain some form of balance has to be the greatest of them all! Of all threads, this thread should be a celebration of how cool AoS is, and yet, it undoubtedly makes for worst reading on all of TGA. This here Warhammer is a dice game. Just a silly dice game. We are all just big kids. That being so doesn't mean we should be scratching and pulling hair. Granted, we all need a moan now and then, but moan to your friends, in the comfort of your own Whatsapp groups. Don't post rants for the world to read. They're only going to get people down and cause friction. TGA has maintained its positivity this long. May this thread serve as a warning to us all. If we go the way of Warseer etc, there may be no coming back...dun...dun...durrrr... Not contradicting your point but I do wonder what people consider whining vs. constructive discussion. I've never subscribed to the belief that you should be happy with what you get, it's just a game, etc. so I'm sure I have a much different mentality. There was definitely some whining and over the top posts here but I think negative comments can be very constructive and useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Heelan Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Bit of a copy / paste from Facebook for you on the time comments: "The process is on going. Certainly not just one day. This one day (weekend) was a great get together to look at a lot of things (that I can't go into). Can't tell you how many hours we've all spent since the game has been launched playing, testing and conversing about matched play. Don't be mis led thinking this is just a one day deal." As a playtest group we are in constant contact with GW on lots of different issues, not to mention you have some hardcore AOS guys working on the game inside GW themselves. D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobgoblinclub Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 13 minutes ago, Gauche said: Not contradicting your point but I do wonder what people consider whining vs. constructive discussion. I've never subscribed to the belief that you should be happy with what you get, it's just a game, etc. so I'm sure I have a much different mentality. There was definitely some whining and over the top posts here but I think negative comments can be very constructive and useful. Totally agree, without it there might be very little discussion at all. However, I think it should be clear, even to anyone who brings the negativity, when it's gone too far. If not, it should certainly be clear when the weight of opinion is against it, mods have questioned it, and the site organiser has given formal warnings. Anyway, I think the changes are fantastic. Regardless of whether my favourite armies go up or down, the game will stay fresh, and every year will bring newness. It's definitely a massive change for the good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauche Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Just now, hobgoblinclub said: Totally agree, without it there might be very little discussion at all. However, I think it should be clear, even to anyone who brings the negativity, when it's gone too far. If not, it should certainly be clear when the weight of opinion is against it, mods have questioned it, and the site organiser has given formal warnings. Anyway, I think the changes are fantastic. Regardless of whether my favourite armies go up or down, the game will stay fresh, and every year will bring newness. It's definitely a massive change for the good. Agreed. There are things I think should be reigned in that I play. Would be happy to see a new meta that forces me to switch things up. Change is usually scary but it will take a few months for the dust to settle and any authoritative comments on the game to emerge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turragor Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 I know there's this view (partly perpetuated by GW) that GW don't do enough for rules but all this so far has been pretty nice. You'd think you folks were studying earthquake readings or designing and testing seals to keep the cold, harsh darkness of vacuum out of space shuttles instead of points for wargaming miniatures. I don't think criticising an article talking about 1 night and day is really any use. I like the focus on helping test at the larger event. By all means discussion is great, but I think a dose of realism is maybe needed. Or whiskey. Or both! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobgoblinclub Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Totally. There's nothing that's already pointed that causes rage. Some people moan and some of it isn't ideal but we all cope. The newness will just become normality soon enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbeardboss Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 This is the best thing ever. Constant tweaking keeps computer games like DOTA 2 going for years and years. There are too many units that you would never take unless forced too for a formation. I would see no reason why someone would take 10 night runners for 100 pts instead of 10 gutter runners for 120 points. but if the night runner were 80 pts then they start looking ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbeardboss Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Also i wonder if the blue and brimstone horrors were our first sign of units being a lot cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Cedric Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Bit of a copy / paste from Facebook for you on the time comments: "The process is on going. Certainly not just one day. This one day (weekend) was a great get together to look at a lot of things (that I can't go into). Can't tell you how many hours we've all spent since the game has been launched playing, testing and conversing about matched play. Don't be mis led thinking this is just a one day deal." As a playtest group we are in constant contact with GW on lots of different issues, not to mention you have some hardcore AOS guys working on the game inside GW themselves. DThank you very much for the great insight and info, Dan. Also, I've been listening to your podcast at work, most recently the episide talking about the Masters and all the new Stormcast stuff coming... im VERY excited. Thank you for all the work you have and currently are doing for the AoS community. Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 6 minutes ago, redbeardboss said: This is the best thing ever. Constant tweaking keeps computer games like DOTA 2 going for years and years. There are too many units that you would never take unless forced too for a formation. I would see no reason why someone would take 10 night runners for 100 pts instead of 10 gutter runners for 120 points. but if the night runner were 80 pts then they start looking ok. Because Night Runners can be battleline and can go up to 40 models? Not that you really have incentive to chase that battle line right now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoollyMammoth Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Nevermind i posted this in the wrong place I'm happy to see smart people working on the points changes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauche Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 I don't think you will ever see no netlists/spam unless the game is fundamentally changed. That's not a knock against AoS, almost all minis games have this unless they're 100% skirmish and small scale with unique characters. Breaking up existing netlists is a thing but it's not really a valuable balance goal. There will always be a best option that constricts variety, it's just inherent to the type of game this is. I agree with the rest of what you said though. Balance changes are to shake the meta up, but it will settle again. That's the point of yearly or semi-yearly tweaks, they throw everything in the air and that's when you can really shine through if list building is your thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 The net-listy issue comes from the armies that don't have a full toolset yet. Sayl is a big part of that - offering mobility to rival SC teleporting. As armies get updated you'll see less reliance on these outside influences. Players will need to make hard choices about staying in their new alliance or going generic to keep Sayl on the team, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauche Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 I don't know if that's true. Some pieces are extremely powerful and force your hand in competitive play. Now that's only true if you're someone who is motivated by that, which is not everyone. It's very difficult to make something not the objective correct "answer" when you're only building for power. I don't think getting away from that should be a design goal since it impacts very few people, but it is a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoollyMammoth Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 @daedalus81 Thats a good point but you are only talking about stormcast and chaos. Most death lists have combos of Neferata, Mourngul and the Cursed Book. The models are expensive and limit what you can do. Neferata takes away the 5++ as a general and therefore you have Mourngul + cursed book and that's the netlist that almost all death players are taking. It's jsut way, way too strong. If you limit stacking to -1 to hit only, you can take any list you like and give the cursed book to your main man. Then you would start seeing varied lists. If they were to release a Flesh-Eater allegiance stuff, there would have to be a way to get -2 to hit in there, or no one would take it competitively, because mourngul+black book is way, way too strong, and that is especially so if you want to get anywhere with a giant pack of naked ghouls. In short, this is going to take a long, long time and even if they release specific allegiance stuff, it will often not even be worth it to switch. In contrast, limiting stacking would fix this right now. I hope they are working to fix the rules of 1 as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 The mourngul wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't so hard to kill (minus to hit aside). And if the bubble was models instead of units. Hopefully FW will follow suit shortly after the new GHB2 with point changes for the big players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobgoblinclub Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 3 hours ago, redbeardboss said: Also i wonder if the blue and brimstone horrors were our first sign of units being a lot cheaper. I think they, and all the fiddly little things that summon bits and bobs in the Tzeentch book, might be a sign of the summoning rules changing. Currently, if one pink horror is killed, to place your blue horrors you need to have a unit of blues already or you are forced to pay for a full warscroll, whilst only placing two. A way forward might be to say that, if you play for ten horrors, you can summon bits of units until they total ten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalozap Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 7 hours ago, Thomas Lyons said: So all the hundreds of scrolls were looked at in a day based on the experiences of these individuals and the feedback from the thousands of Facebook posts and hundreds of emails, which they also read in that one day. The next day, a handful of games were played (6 forces per game, maybe 4 games played each, so 24 test games) and some adjustments to the points were made.Awesome. I really hope the basis of the rebalance wasn't limited to what you accurately paraphrased from the official site in your post. The rebalance deserved a deeper dive than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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