wayniac Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 1 minute ago, KillagoreFaceslasha said: B-b-but Slaanesh Squatting! Making for kiddies! PC-friendly! BIG-EVUL-PLOYZ!!1one! No, the shadow of GW is/was a thing, and a very real possibility, even with all the nice things they've done lately. It doesn't erase 15 years of being evil because they have like 2 years of not. However, back on topic. I wonder if they are adjusting ALL the points, or only some things. I mean, could we see reductions/increases across the board? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottle Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 I want to see Fyreslayers win SCGT2017! These point reductions are making me consider adding to my paltry 10 Vulkite Beserkers that are always fun to use in games and Tournaments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Deeds Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 In all seriousness, glad to see this. I really like how GW is not afraid to float trial ballons publically like this. Just remember folks, with great power comes great responsibility. Use your soapbox with care less GW doeth giveth and doeth taketh away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veterannoob Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 20 minutes ago, bottle said: I want to see Fyreslayers win SCGT2017! These point reductions are making me consider adding to my paltry 10 Vulkite Beserkers that are always fun to use in games and Tournaments we'll get there one day... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottle Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 3 minutes ago, Veterannoob said: we'll get there one day... I'd be interested to see how much more you can fit into a 2000 point list now! You should post up a thread once you've got a few games under your belt with the new points. It's your time to shine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Criti Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 2 hours ago, Thomas Lyons said: What we may be seeing is an across the board increase of Compendium scroll prices as a way to phase these models out. If so, this is bad design and a great way to offend your player base (as all armies will some day be compendium armies, and with rolling updates, will eventually be priced out of competitive play). From a business standpoint, this is brilliant design. Magic: The Gathering has operated off that model for years, and they're rolling in the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 I missed the part where GW was actually evil. Distant and clumsy, yes, but they're hardly rivalling the likes of Nestle for corporate evil. Either way, vaguely intrigued to see what changes are brought around in GHB2. I doubt it'll cause any apocalypses soon, but I'm feeling points rebalances will help the game a fair bit. This is still presumably a long way off though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 Just now, Criti said: From a business standpoint, this is brilliant design. Magic: The Gathering has operated off that model for years, and they're rolling in the money. It's been raised many, many times, but the business model of MtG just wouldn't work for miniatures like GW creates. No-one wants to have to buy an Alarielle to "refresh" it two years later, and GW can't produce product fast enough to create the rapidly-shifting meta that makes MtG attractive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradifer Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 2 hours ago, Ollie Grimwood said: Hang on Fyreslayers were overcosted and some Tomb Kings were undercosted (they haven't changed all of there costs judging by the example) I don't see how this adds up to some nefarious plot. Simple change to the game. The game is balanced by points. The points were adjusted for balance purposes! This whole thread can be summed up in just a few posts if we want to skip past the speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnelian Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 This is great news! Proper listening to feedback and now we have a sneak peak to give even more feedback on their proposed changes. Fantastic! I literally don't understand where so much negativity is coming from for these EXPERIMENTAL points changes that are CLEARLY WARRANTED and will make the game that little bit fairer. I weep for TGA, it used to be so positive here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Lyons Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 1 hour ago, wayniac said: No, the shadow of GW is/was a thing, and a very real possibility, even with all the nice things they've done lately. It doesn't erase 15 years of being evil because they have like 2 years of not. However, back on topic. I wonder if they are adjusting ALL the points, or only some things. I mean, could we see reductions/increases across the board? Agreed. On the topic of adjusting points, I previously pointed out that all the current scrolls were reduced in cost/kept the same where there were only points increases for compendium scrolls. After thinking about it some more, I suspect this was a smart business decision. With the point increases, they nerfed the most egregious offenders from the compendium scrolls, particularly many that showed up in the recent Masters lists. But why didn't we see adjustments (increases) for current models? Probably because raising points on these compendium scrolls costs them no sales and adjusts those units perceived to need them the most. It is all upside except for weathering the complainers like myself who would have likely bitched at release about them miscosting some units anyways. They likely didn't want to make the increased point cost on current models public because they still have months of sales they can milk out of those units at a higher power level. Sales on undercosted units will drop as soon as they are adjusted. Similarly, the decreasing of cost for Fyreslayers is all upside for them because it will motivate people to pick up a box (or possibly the forthcoming Getting Started Fyreslayer box) or even an army. This probably explains why we saw the increases in the old scrolls and decreases in the current/new stuff. Makes good business sense and they can harbor good will by exposing it to the public to receive feedback (although Dan implied on Twitter that these values have already been tested internally and are fairly established). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvDJ Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 4 minutes ago, Carnelian said: I literally don't understand where so much negativity is coming from for these EXPERIMENTAL points changes that are CLEARLY WARRANTED and will make the game that little bit fairer. I weep for TGA, it used to be so positive here... Just one of the reasons why I stick to the painting and modelling section, and narrative sections....plenty of positivity there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Lyons Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 6 minutes ago, Carnelian said: I literally don't understand where so much negativity is coming from for these EXPERIMENTAL points changes that are CLEARLY WARRANTED and will make the game that little bit fairer. Probably because people have hundreds, possibly thousands, of dollars invested in collections that aren't going to be competitive at events any longer. People will understand my frustration when the nerfs on BCR, Sayl, Stormfiends, Kurnoth Hunters and the other undercosted units become public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 4 minutes ago, Thomas Lyons said: Agreed. On the topic of adjusting points, I previously pointed out that all the current scrolls were reduced in cost/kept the same where there were only points increases for compendium scrolls. After thinking about it some more, I suspect this was a smart business decision. With the point increases, they nerfed the most egregious offenders from the compendium scrolls, particularly many that showed up in the recent Masters lists. But why didn't we see adjustments (increases) for current models? Probably because raising points on these compendium scrolls costs them no sales and adjusts those units perceived to need them the most. It is all upside except for weathering the complainers like myself who would have likely bitched at release about them miscosting some units anyways. They likely didn't want to make the increased point cost on current models public because they still have months of sales they can milk out of those units at a higher power level. Sales on undercosted units will drop as soon as they are adjusted. Similarly, the decreasing of cost for Fyreslayers is all upside for them because it will motivate people to pick up a box (or possibly the forthcoming Getting Started Fyreslayer box) or even an army. This probably explains why we saw the increases in the old scrolls and decreases in the current/new stuff. Makes good business sense and they can harbor good will by exposing it to the public to receive feedback (although Dan implied on Twitter that these values have already been tested internally and are fairly established). My eyes just rolled out of my head. Quote But why didn't we see adjustments (increases) for current models? Because this is a sample? There's a 100+ page book being put together for updates. Quote complainers like myself who would have likely bitched at release about them miscosting some units anyways You're doing it now. You would do it then. You'll do it forever. You'll argue both sides of the coin, because it is the only rationalization that you can conjure. Any point decrease is to promote sales. Any point increase is to promote sales of something else. It is pointless circular logic and makes any attempt at balancing a system hilariously fruitless. This logic is unequivocally a cancer on the community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 11 minutes ago, Thomas Lyons said: Probably because people have hundreds, possibly thousands, of dollars invested in collections that aren't going to be competitive at events any longer. People will understand my frustration when the nerfs on BCR, Sayl, Stormfiends, Kurnoth Hunters and the other undercosted units become public. Your message has the following effect - GW should refrain from engaging the community and giving peeks at projects. This is why they stopped so long ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Lyons Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 1 minute ago, daedalus81 said: Your message has the following effect - GW should refrain from engaging the community and giving peeks at projects. This is why they stopped so long ago. Just....no. My message is that this sneak peak is a unilateral nerf (of old things) and buff (of new things) with no larger context. As I've said elsewhere, most of these points increases wouldn't be an issue if we're looking at a 20-50% increase of most tier 1 play units (high mortal wounds output, high/unusual mobility, etc) across the board. But we see a handful of units, mostly TK or showing up in one of the Masters lists, singled out, with some of the grossest violations (currently available models) omitted. Haven't you thought to stop and ask "why?" Why don't we have any of the grossly undercosted or overpowered current kits recosted? Why are the only models to have taken heavy hits compendium models? I am trying to make sense of the "why." I have yet to see a compelling coherent alternative answer to the one I've provided. The reality is the this change effects maybe 1-4% of the current player base. I'm in that small percentage of players who have a big tomb kings force (10k+ from current GHB, probably 12-14k now) that just got kicked in the dick. The experience sucks and I want people to know the it sucks. Yes, they needed adjusted. But 33-50% increases on a bunch of their units? That's crazy. This is why I'm vocal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 Is there actualy an argument that TK went up and Fyreslayers went down not because of balance issues but because of sales tactics? Interesting but also a little bit funny IMO. Edit: But I think they may have done Fyreslayers a little bit to cheap and some TK units a little bit to expensive. We will see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoollyMammoth Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 The reason for this preview is obvious. Fyreslayers are not selling. They are hoping a point decrease will give them a big boost. The boxes are $$$$ and they want to make some fast cash. Also they can look like they are not afraid to slam down the nerf hammer, because none of these death models have models!!! They don't have to be afraid that necrosphinx sales will go down because, they no longer sell necrosphinx. Thanks for kicking death while we are down, real cool GW. How about you give us a half decent grand alliance instead of nerfing what little we have left. Vampire lord on abyssal terror was essential to our army and was costed perfectly, now we got a 300 point pseudo-monster with only 8 wounds and the biggest whiff attacks in the history of all whiff attacks. I really hope that these new points are coming along with a beautiful clean scroll where he gets some seriously nasty attacks to go with his bloated point cost. I'll be okay with this if, they also update kurnoth to cost an additional 100 points for 3. But they wont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volund Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 I am surprised no one has commented on the other side of the Fyreslayers point decrease....if it happens they way they presented, fyreslayers effectively become more expensive in real currency. At 2pts per USD vulkite berzerkers would become one of the most expensive kits available (i have not done the math on all kits, but i have done a few and even Longbeards would be significantly more effecient). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayniac Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 We have seen only a bit shown. How do we know that things like mortal wound spam/monster spam isn't also getting points jacked up? Why are people jumping to conclusions because one army got point increases across the board? Besides, would you rather have them just removed them entirely from the compendium, like a lot of the videos with people discussing "what to do with Compendium warscrolls" suggested? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 3 minutes ago, WoollyMammoth said: I'll be okay with this if, they also update kurnoth to cost an additional 100 points for 3. But they wont. If I were a betting man (which I am) I would not bet against kurnoth going up in price at any resonable odds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Lyons Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 12 minutes ago, Andreas said: Is there actualy an argument that TK went up and Fyreslayers went down not because of balance issues but because of sales tactics? Interesting but also a little bit funny IMO. No. Tk needed to go up and Fyreslayers needed to come down. This is no debating that. What is debatable is whether they needed a 30-50% price increase. But more than just TK were nerfed in the preview and the price increases killed the most competitive lists and bumped them down to a tier 2 army at best, likely a tier 3 (depending on what other changes get implemented with GHB2). All of this does nothing to explain why 3 wound, 1" move Kraggi was increased to 100 points. 10 minutes ago, WoollyMammoth said: The reason for this preview is obvious. Fyreslayers are not selling. They are hoping a point decrease will give them a big boost. The boxes are $$$$ and they want to make some fast cash. Also they can look like they are not afraid to slam down the nerf hammer, because none of these death models have models!!! They don't have to be afraid that necrosphinx sales will go down because, they no longer sell necrosphinx. Thanks for kicking death while we are down, real cool GW. How about you give us a half decent grand alliance instead of nerfing what little we have left. Vampire lord on abyssal terror was essential to our army and was costed perfectly, now we got a 300 point pseudo-monster with only 8 wounds and the biggest whiff attacks in the history of all whiff attacks. I really hope that these new points are coming along with a beautiful clean scroll where he gets some seriously nasty attacks to go with his bloated point cost. I'll be okay with this if, they also update kurnoth to cost an additional 100 points for 3. But they wont. This. 5 minutes ago, wayniac said: We have seen only a bit shown. How do we know that things like mortal wound spam/monster spam isn't also getting points jacked up? Why are people jumping to conclusions because one army got point increases across the board? Besides, would you rather have them just removed them entirely from the compendium, like a lot of the videos with people discussing "what to do with Compendium warscrolls" suggested? This change is symptomatic of change #2 which @Vincent Venturella talked about: deal with the Compendium issue by overcosting them and making them non-competitive. Vince talks about this here starting at 12:22. This is what's happened. In his words, "this is a terrible solution." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mc1gamer Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 There's ZERO reason to make a VL on Abyssal Terror a Behemoth. Its pts are too high at 300. It was reasonable where it was compared to a reg. VL, wher it should be higher (and was!). Yes, its abilities are nice, but not breaking. 8 wounds, modest save, mediocre in CC. Compare to a Vargulf at 8 wounds, better in CC, good abilities and 160, and not a Behemoth! That's just nonsense of a change. Looking more like the rumored hike in pts for compendiums scroll arbitrarily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 2 hours ago, Thomas Lyons said: This change is symptomatic of change #2 which Vince Venturella talked about: deal with the Compendium issue by overcosting them and making them non-competitive. Vince talks about this here starting at 12:22. This is what's happened. In his words, "this is a terrible solution." I have seen the show (great show as always) and I agree with his solution. But I do think some points increase on the most mispriced warscrolls, for example Setra or kurnoth hunters or Sayl or the brotherhood battalion is in order also and some decrease on some warscrolls for example Runefather on magmadroth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 22 minutes ago, Thomas Lyons said: Just....no. My message is that this sneak peak is a unilateral nerf (of old things) and buff (of new things) with no larger context. As I've said elsewhere, most of these points increases wouldn't be an issue if we're looking at a 20-50% increase of most tier 1 play units (high mortal wounds output, high/unusual mobility, etc) across the board. But we see a handful of units, mostly TK or showing up in one of the Masters lists, singled out, with some of the grossest violations (currently available models) omitted. Haven't you thought to stop and ask "why?" Why don't we have any of the grossly undercosted or overpowered current kits recosted? Why are the only models to have taken heavy hits compendium models? I am trying to make sense of the "why." I have yet to see a compelling coherent alternative answer to the one I've provided. The reality is the this change effects maybe 1-4% of the current player base. I'm in that small percentage of players who have a big tomb kings force (10k+ from current GHB, probably 12-14k now) that just got kicked in the dick. The experience sucks and I want people to know the it sucks. Yes, they needed adjusted. But 33-50% increases on a bunch of their units? That's crazy. This is why I'm vocal. You're trying to create a 'why' when there is none needed. It's a trial. What if those values change? Oh, I bet GW will bring the points back up after they get all the sales they want! Then they'll decrease something else to sell that! Maybe your why should be these are the rare set of compendium units that are overly strong. That's quite a bit simpler than this nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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