TOW 1.0 - The Empire

[Vakarian]

Hello, fellow Landsknecht aficionados! With thanks to the mod team here for opening up an Old World sub forum, let’s start tossing around some ideas for Empire lists and tactics. Has anyone been able to play a game yet? Just theorycrafting still? 
 

Me, I’m just excited to put a Grand Master on a Demigryph and see what he can do along with his buddies on demis. It seems like Empire cavalry could be quite good and fun to use in Old World. 
 

I’m still thinking through how to use state troops, but spears and shields on the main block with halberdier detachments (and maybe some classic archer screens) seem solid. Captains might be a must to keep Panic at bay. 
 

How are you planning to play the grandest army in the Old World? 

[Trokair]

I am not planning on doing a human Empire army, as I am already doing Bretonnians, and probably Exiles (or Naval themed using the Exiles or Vanilla with Empire allies) so will be able to incorporate a few Empire units I like the look of that way.

However I may potentially be doing a count as Empire army, using the new Kroot as a base. I have done a number of Fantasy / AoS to 40k conversion projects and doing one in the other directions seems like fun. Kroot feel like the one that is most likely to fit into the Fantasy of AoS aesthetic/environment.  I did a bit of theorying/planning some years ago with Kroot as count as Woodelves, and at the time somebody suggested Empire as they were doing something similar at the time.

Now with the new Kroot units I am once again tempted by the idea. Rough plan for 1k with the the count as kroot conversions I am considering currently is as follows, unspent points will go on magic items, banners and such once I actually have the book and can read up on things:

 

Empire of Man Kroot [949 pts]

General of the Empire [113 pts] Shaper on new mount
(Hand weapon, Lance, Heavy armour, General, Barded Warhorse)

Master Mage [110 pts] Shaper
(Hand weapon, Level 2 Wizard, On foot, Dispel Scroll, Elementalism)

Priest of Sigmar [66 pts] War Shaper
(Hand weapon, Great weapon, Light armour, Shield, On foot)

20 Veteran State Troops [175 pts] Kroot Carnivore
(Hand weapons, Light armour, Shields, Sergeant, Standard bearer, Musician)

10 State Missile Troops [98 pts] Kroot Carnivore
(Hand weapons, Handguns, Light armour, Sergeant, Hochland long rifle)

10 Free Company Militia [67 pts] Kroot Hounds with handler, maybe, open to suggestions for better fit for Kroot hounds 
(Additional hand weapons, Militia leader)

3 Demigryph Knights [195 pts] Rampagers 
(Lances, Shields, Heavy armour, Demigryph Preceptor, Standard bearer, Musician)

Great Cannon [125 pts] Krootox

 

[Marcvs]

On 3/13/2024 at 4:14 PM, Vakarian said:

Hello, fellow Landsknecht aficionados! With thanks to the mod team here for opening up an Old World sub forum, let’s start tossing around some ideas for Empire lists and tactics. Has anyone been able to play a game yet? Just theorycrafting still? 
 

Me, I’m just excited to put a Grand Master on a Demigryph and see what he can do along with his buddies on demis. It seems like Empire cavalry could be quite good and fun to use in Old World. 
 

I’m still thinking through how to use state troops, but spears and shields on the main block with halberdier detachments (and maybe some classic archer screens) seem solid. Captains might be a must to keep Panic at bay. 
 

How are you planning to play the grandest army in the Old World?

[Marcvs]

On 3/13/2024 at 4:14 PM, Vakarian said:

How are you planning to play the grandest army in the Old World? 

After fleshing out my Wood Elves army I am starting an Empire project because the army seems rather weak (so my clubmates will stop complaining about my Wood Elves)

I always like to tackle new army with some sort of hobby-theme (not just lore theme) and here I am trying to use mostly kits from hisotricals or alternative very posable/intercompatible ranges (Frostgrave/Oathmark/Forgotten World). The units I like most are pistoliers, flagellants, mortars, and the War Altar, so I am pretty sure it will be a disaster on the tabletop, but that's the point. Here's a few things I have built so far:

Spoiler

Flagellants

 

Pistoliers

Greatswords

 

 

[Vakarian]

Love those models, Marcvs! 
 

Sadly, aside from Flagellants, I think you’re got a good selection of the worst units in the book! But enjoying the project makes it a lot more fun. 
 

Trokair, those analogs make a lot of sense for the Kroot as Empire. That’ll be quite the project to see when it’s done! Make sure you share it. 

[Trokair]

13 hours ago, Vakarian said:

Trokair, those analogs make a lot of sense for the Kroot as Empire. That’ll be quite the project to see when it’s done! Make sure you share it. 

If I do this then it probably will not be for a while as I’d like to at least build my Bretonnians, in part as spare parts from there, such as shields, swords etc will probably be useful for the Kroot.  However if I do do this then there will be a dedicated hobby tread down in the Painting and Modelling section.

I have also been contemplating the eventual expansion to 2000p and a Krootified Steam Tank might look cool.

I have a second hand Great Knarloc in need of some TLC, was thinking that could be a stand in for the really big (two headed?) griffon.

Lots of options to play around with and plan, now if only there was a proper hound like unit for the Kroot hounds to be as the Militia count as is a bit meh...

 

[Double Misfire]

Fantasy Kroot are an awesome idea @Trokair, but would Wood Elves or Beastmen not be more obvious fits to proxy them as? (I imagine you've thought about this a lot more than I have)

[Trokair]

On 3/20/2024 at 12:27 PM, Double Misfire said:

Fantasy Kroot are an awesome idea @Trokair, but would Wood Elves or Beastmen not be more obvious fits to proxy them as? (I imagine you've thought about this a lot more than I have)

To an extend booth Wood Elves and Beastman might be a better fit, certainly for certain aspects. Indeed  some years ago the first time I contemplated doing this at length I had settled on Wood Elves before budgetary issues pushed the project onto the backburner.

The jungle/forest dwellers and the associated fieldcraft, the hunters and tribal aspects all do speak to those two, and certainly are a large part of Kroot identity, but I feel that while they are part of Kroot identity they are not part of the Kroot essence.  ie what makes a Kroot force feel like a Kroot force and not just some bird looking beastman or some elves with beaks.

 

To me this boils down to two things, one a more abstract identity, that of Kroot as mercenary, likely to turn up anywhere and fight for someone else. The other is a more visual thing and it is the kroot gun.

Visually distinct and easily identifiable as Kroot to anybody who has been in the hobby for a while. They are also the reason why a Kroot into a Warhammer Fantasy setting project might work in my mind. While they might have some Tau tech in 40k to make them better than human lasguns or autoguns  they look like they could be black powder weaponry not to far removed from what is already in the setting such as Empire or Dwarf. Now yes for Fantasy specifically they still look a bit more modern then either of those factions. But in the AoS realms for example I feel they fit right in considering things like the flying dwarf boat lot exist from a tech level perspective.  And while I am here now in the Old world section and considering doing the Kroot there, I may yet do it as AoS instead, it just comes down to what set of rules can I most closely match up with the units/visuals to make the army feel good once it is on the table.

If I turn up at my local store for a game of Fantasy against an opponent who might not know me and I place onto the table a unit of 10 Kroot with Kroot guns and a Krootox with the big Kroot gun and say these are 10 hungunners and a cannon will that be easier for them to grok then if I say these are 10 archers and a bolt thrower (so high elves as opposed to wood elves I guess)? I don’t know, but I guess that the former is more likely than the latter.

Now if I place 10 Kroot that are kroot bodies, but have say spear or handweapon and shields and say these are State Troopers/Glade Guard/Gors then I suspect the opponent is just as likely to accept one as the others and in that regards that works.

So I could build an entire Beastman(or woodelves) army with kroot bodies, and it would look good (I hope) and be easy enough for the opponent to get what each unit is, but would it be a Kroot army in fantasy, or a fantasy army that is Krootish? I think Empire gives me a good foundation, with lots of flexibility in units to try and make it work. Assuming I actually do this and not sit on it for another decade.

 

There is in fact a Fantasy army that I think would be an even closer fit of models to rules (or what I imagine the rules to be), and that is the Kislev as shown in Total War: Warhammer. They have blackpowder guns that double up as Axses (so basically a archetypal Kroot gun). Bear Cavalry would be Krootox rampagers, and the warsleeds would be normal krootox and such. However until they get rules I think Empire is the closest I am going to get.

 

 

Edit: This is not a primary reason, but I think a Krootified Steam Tank would look cool.

Edited March 22 by Trokair

[Double Misfire]

The reintroduction of the Goblin Hewer at an earlier point in history than it should have shown up has my brain blowing hot and cold on the Halfling Hotpot when the Empire eventually get their turn.

On one hand, White Dwarf 150 was one of the first issues I bought, and the fact Hotpots weren't a thing till one was used as an improvised measure in a battle fought against Grom the Paunch is one of the cornerstones of my love of WFB background.

On the other hand... soup.

🫤

[Tonhel]

Empire knights. I am gonna order some movement trays for my planned Empire army. Frontage 5 or 6? I am thinking of units of 8-12 knights.

[Vakarian]

I used to run units of 8 with a frontage of 6 in 7th ed and they worked pretty well. With cavalry gaining some big boosts in the new edition I think they’ll be even better. 
 

I can see an argument for 5 wide due to space concerns but I think with the new rule allowing models not in base to base to make one attack, it’s worth it to expand knights’ frontage for an extra lance or great weapon attack on the charge. I’d go 6 for now and see how it works. 

[Jefferson Skarsnik]

There's a batch of rumours doing the rounds via the WHFB discord (and possibly some other places) including that the Empire Arcane Journal armies are Nuln Gunnery School and Middenheim

[Tonhel]

1 hour ago, Vakarian said:

I used to run units of 8 with a frontage of 6 in 7th ed and they worked pretty well. With cavalry gaining some big boosts in the new edition I think they’ll be even better. 
 

I can see an argument for 5 wide due to space concerns but I think with the new rule allowing models not in base to base to make one attack, it’s worth it to expand knights’ frontage for an extra lance or great weapon attack on the charge. I’d go 6 for now and see how it works. 

Thanks, 6 wide it is. 😄 

1 hour ago, Jefferson Skarsnik said:

There's a batch of rumours doing the rounds via the WHFB discord (and possibly some other places) including that the Empire Arcane Journal armies are Nuln Gunnery School and Middenheim

Can you make a screenshot? The only Warhammer Discord I am in is  The Honest Wargamer Network and I haven't seen them there.

[Montan]

1 hour ago, Jefferson Skarsnik said:

There's a batch of rumours doing the rounds via the WHFB discord (and possibly some other places) including that the Empire Arcane Journal armies are Nuln Gunnery School and Middenheim

Interesting, as I would have expected Armies of Infamy for all four big factions of the Civil War. Any additional rumors about the Dwarven Armies of Infamy?

[Jefferson Skarsnik]

(From one of the server's mods):

I just received a batch of juicy rumours from a reliable source. This is not a late April's fools: The bad:

• Quote

   

  • Skaven will remain in AoS for the time being. Don't expect them to return for TOW for the foreseeable future.
  • Forgeworld Mammoth won't be returning.

  The good:

  • There's an army book for Cathay, with the same roster as TWW. Don't expect this soon, though.
  • Unlike the Mammoth, the preyton, gorebull BSB, skin wolves and Fimir will return as part of the Beastmen AJ.
  • The Beastmen AJ includes a new lore of magic (reminiscent of the Lore of Beasts).
  • The Beastmen AJ armies of infamy are a minotaur horde and a call of the wild list (which is where the new lore of magic and the FW minis will be slotted).
  • They're working on another FAQ to release alongside every other Arcane Journal. The way I understand this is that it's a third FAQ, not the second one we've been promised. What the contents of this FAQ are is a total mystery. Maybe specific clarifications for the AJ? (speculation mine)
  • The armies of infamy for Empire are Gunnery School of Nuln and a Middenheim flavoured army. 

   

Edited April 2 by Jefferson Skarsnik

[Tonhel]

@Jefferson Skarsnik Sounds great! Thank you. I al really looking forward to everything! 😄

 

[JerekKruger]

15 hours ago, Jefferson Skarsnik said:

There's a batch of rumours doing the rounds via the WHFB discord (and possibly some other places) including that the Empire Arcane Journal armies are Nuln Gunnery School and Middenheim

Colour me unconvinced. If I was going to make safe guesses about what the armies would be, those two would be them. But so far we've seen some fairly unusual stores if infamy (Outcasts and Troll Horde most notably) and I think Middenheim and Nuln are too obvious.

Or perhaps I'm just going for something different. I like Middenheim, but I've always thought the Gunnery school was an uninteresting army idea.

[Skreech Verminking]

On 3/13/2024 at 4:14 PM, Vakarian said:

Hello, fellow Landsknecht aficionados! With thanks to the mod team here for opening up an Old World sub forum, let’s start tossing around some ideas for Empire lists and tactics. Has anyone been able to play a game yet? Just theorycrafting still? 
 

Me, I’m just excited to put a Grand Master on a Demigryph and see what he can do along with his buddies on demis. It seems like Empire cavalry could be quite good and fun to use in Old World. 
 

I’m still thinking through how to use state troops, but spears and shields on the main block with halberdier detachments (and maybe some classic archer screens) seem solid. Captains might be a must to keep Panic at bay. 
 

How are you planning to play the grandest army in the Old World? 

Say while not necessarily a landsknecht yet, can a fellow Reichsläufer join the discussion as well😜

[Vakarian]

Good mercenaries are always welcome! 😉

[Skreech Verminking]

20 minutes ago, Vakarian said:

Good mercenaries are always welcome! 😉

I mean we did teach you guys to fight😂.

so I definitely feel welcome, and about that, I’m likely going to build up a swiss Reichsläufer army for tow.

its more of a fun project rather then something I’m trying to keep as warhammer lore accurate as possible (or swiss history accurate either way)

Basically I’ll be combining different bricks of infantry with each having a different kantonal flag (kantons can be considered similar to what a state is in the united states).

[Vakarian]

That sounds like an awesome project—make sure you share it! Love a good historically based Fantasy empire army, and who better than the originals??

[Skreech Verminking]

11 minutes ago, Vakarian said:

That sounds like an awesome project—make sure you share it! Love a good historically based Fantasy empire army, and who better than the originals??

Thanks, as soon as the empire gets their models back I’ll happily share some pics

[Vakarian]

Same here. I don’t have much left from old Fantasy days so I’m in no position to start Empire back up right this moment. But they’ll go to the front of the queue as soon as they drop. 

Edited April 4 by Vakarian

[Tonhel]

I did some test prints for different knightly orders. The STLs are from Last Sword Miniatures. I really like these knights.

From left to right. I wil use them as Ar-Ulric or maybe a grandmaster of the White Wolf, knight Panther, knight of the Blazing sun, grandmaster of the Blazing Sun, knight of Morr, knight of the White Wolf and than a regular knight, as I don't think the Reiksguard order was already created.

 

 

Edited April 21 by Tonhel