AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion

[Lightbox]

4 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

The Marshall on Griffon is a really strong choice for general. You can kit him out to be tanky and fighty with the Sigmarite Warhammer artefact and Grizzled Veteran trait. Double Roar, double orders, counter charge over screens... Lots of benefits here, I would say absolutely worth the points.

I think you can run him alongside Tahlia no problem. They are about equally fighty, too. If I was running a cavalry heavy list, they are probably the two heroes I would start with.

Cav heavy is my ideal so that sounds great Thanks! Is there a particular consensus yet on which weapon is best for the marshall? They each seem to have pros and cons so im not too sure myself on which would be preferable. Im not too keen on the lance as I like to be able to pack a punch even when I don't charge!

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

8 minutes ago, Lightbox said:

Cav heavy is my ideal so that sounds great Thanks! Is there a particular consensus yet on which weapon is best for the marshall? They each seem to have pros and cons so im not too sure myself on which would be preferable. Im not too keen on the lance as I like to be able to pack a punch even when I don't charge!

They are all pretty similar. I would say it comes down to personal preference.

[loky100]

I like both. The Griffon with the Hammer Artifact does just slightly more damage then Tahlia. I play to run a list with 20 Cav and both of them so they can do work together.

Here is the stats for both of them fighting. The Griffon is charging if not it drops off a little.

 

[loky100]

After I run my steam tank at the next tournament here is my list idea for a alpha strike army.

Misthaven the Pontifex to give that 5+ ward  into their deployment, then do the Marshal and a unit of Cavaliers to go with him. Move and charge both Tahlia and Ionus up. Ionus uses his breath to clear screens/ chain lighting in the hero phase. Other Cavaliers follow up and if they can get a charge all the better. Command corps just turns off commands and if they get up their eventually heal some models. Everyone just takes engage the Foe order for +1 attack. Should be pretty spicy for an army.

Misthaven

Cavalier-Marshal General 120
Sigmarite Warhammer
Fiery Temper

Thalia 340
Pontifex 150
Cavaliers x 10 360
Cavaliers x 10 360
Steel Helms x 10 100
Command Corps 170

Ionus Cryptborn 400

Total 2000

[wayniac]

So out of sheer curiosity as the models look sick, is it viable to run mostly the new stuff and not rely on bringing in old WHFB elves/dwarfs/Empire stuff (maybe excluding regular wizards)?  Or is it built around synergy still from the old ranges?

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

Just now, wayniac said:

So out of sheer curiosity as the models look sick, is it viable to run mostly the new stuff and not rely on bringing in old WHFB elves/dwarfs/Empire stuff (maybe excluding regular wizards)?  Or is it built around synergy still from the old ranges?

Building humans only is definitely a viable list on its own, so that's a good start. The question is how much you lose by not considering old Empire units.

Those units are the mage carriages, the steam tank, Marshall on Griffon, Battlemage and Flagellants. So you would lose access to big heroes outside of Tahlia Vedra and to the Lore of the Collegiate Arcane. I think you can safely skip Flagellants as they are not really a powerhouse unit.

You can build a good infantry spam list out of this, but the Hurricanum, Marshal on Griffon and Tank Commander are nice hero options you would probably be tempted by. Worth considering a conversion with leftover bits from the new kits.

[loky100]

9 hours ago, wayniac said:

So out of sheer curiosity as the models look sick, is it viable to run mostly the new stuff and not rely on bringing in old WHFB elves/dwarfs/Empire stuff (maybe excluding regular wizards)?  Or is it built around synergy still from the old ranges?

If you look at my list just above its all the new units.

If you didn't want Ionus Cryptborn in your list you could run some Fusilliers with a Warforger.

If you wanted to go all shooting mass Fusilliers would be effective. Or go mass horde steelhelms could also be effective.

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

I have another variation on a tank list I am considering:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Hallowheart

- Grand Strategy: Banners Held High/Spellcasting Savant
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Steam Tank with Commander (270)
- Artefact: Arcane Tome

Celestial Hurricanum with Celestial Battlemage (260)
- Lore of the Collegiate Arcane: Levitate

- Artefact: Mastro Vivetti's Maginificent Macroscope
Alchemite Warforger (90)

- General

- Lore of the Collegiate Arcane: Hoarfrost/Transmutation of Lead
- Command Trait: Master of Ballistics
Battlemage (100)

- Arcane Trinket: Realmstone Orb

- Lore of the Collegiate Arcane: Pall of Doom

Pontifex Zenestra (150)

Battleline
10 x Freeguild Steelhelms (100)

10 x Freeguild Steelhelms (100)

20 x Freeguild Fusiliers (300)

Units

6 x Freeguild Command Corps (170)

 

Behemoths

Steam Tank (230)

Steam Tank (230)

Core Battalions
*Warlord

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 125
Drops: 11

The main difference to the previous list is that this one runs one more Steam Tank and a Battlemage instead of a unit of Cavaliers plus Marshall.

Pros:

• The Battlemage adds an extra cast and another high value spell in Pall of Doom. Best case: shuts down crucial command abilities fairly reliably at 24" range. Worst case: prevents Inspiring Presence on a unit that I want to shoot.
• Another Tank makes it so that the Tank Commander can actually make use of his ability to get a free command.
• Need to paint six fewer models because I already have the tank and battlemage painted.

Cons:

• Less mobile
• Realistically one fewer threat in a list that is already in danger of being a death star
• One fewer banner for the Grand Strategy

Other possible variations I am thinking about are:

• Bringing a Gyrobomber instead of the Battlemage
• Cutting the Battlemage and bringing upgrading all Steam Tanks into Commanders instead.

[Tzanna]

The +20 points at the fusiliers....hurt me....

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

So, Cities FAQ.

First off, points:

Alchemite Warforger 110 +20
Pontifex Zenestra, Matriarch of the Great Wheel 180 +30
Freeguild Fusiliers 170 +20

Unsurprising, those were the units most people though were undercosted I think. Fusiliers +20 is perhaps a little unexpected.

Some explanations of the other errata:

• You do get to give orders turn 1 even though there is no priority roll.
• Wizards with fixed Collegate Arcane spells can take only those spells from the lore even if they get an extra spell enhancement. They can still take generics and Andtor spells, though.
• Misthavn 2d6" move changed to not include companions and crew as mounts. This makes the rule no longer applicable to Zenestra.
• Alchemite Warforger changed to limit his +1 saves/+1 cast ability to one friendly unit, so you can no longer get multiple stacking +1 to save bubbles (or +1s to cast, for that matter). Notably, the warscroll spells were not changed, which means the mortal wound bubble is still applicable to ranged attacks.
• Hurricanum storm is now just in your hero phase. Sadge.
• Freeguild Command Corps: War Surgeon and Soul Shepard now get attack profiles (they previously forgot to list them).
• Hammerers get the command group they deserve.
• The black dragons get the MONSTER keyword.
• Hexbane's Hunters and surprisingly Doralia ven Denst lose their hero keywords.

Mostly changes and fixes I expected, personally. Sad to see the Hurricanum get changed, I really liked it when I used it that one time. Hope it goes down in price a bit now, because currently I feel it is doing a smidge too little for its point cost.

 

[Landohammer]

The app is also not recognizing that a single unit of Steelhelms unlocks both Wildercorps and Fusiliers as battleline. But that may just be an error. 

Yea I am dissapointed they chose to apply point hikes without providing point drops. My list went up 60 points which means I lose a gyrocopter. Seems like the army was struggling out the gate and this just makes it worse. But I am definitley still excited to play them especially when the new models arrive this weekend. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 minute ago, Landohammer said:

The app is also not recognizing that a single unit of Steelhelms unlocks both Wildercorps and Fusiliers as battleline. But that may just be an error. 

Yea I am dissapointed they chose to apply point hikes without providing point drops. My list went up 60 points which means I lose a gyrocopter. Seems like the army was struggling out the gate and this just makes it worse. But I am definitley still excited to play them especially when the new models arrive this weekend. 

Personally, the only points increase I am not sure about is Fusiliers. The Alchemite was definitely too cheap and Zenestra was also kind of an auto-include. Points can always go back down later if they turn out to be too high.

Ironically, one of the changes I am considering to my list after the points increases is 10 extra Fusiliers because of how the points work out after having to cut a Steam Tank.

[Landohammer]

Yea I'm fine with the things that got hikes, but typically you would also see point drops to make the weaker units more appealing. I think Flagellants went up 10 points too. I still think Cavaliers, Cannons, Steelhelms, Dark Shards and much of the dwarf stuff is overcosted. 

I guess we will have to wait and see how they perform. I just cant see the army being super powerful. Most peoples experience seems to be that they are mid at best. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

On the positive side, the FAQ answered most of the questions I had, like if Zenestra counts as mounted or not and whether you get Orders turn 1.

I also like their Warforger fix: He can still do all the exciting stuff he could do before, but he is now a little bit more expensive and you can only get his spell/buff once at a the same time. I really like it when an army has pieces like this that, realistically, are a bit ahead of the curve, but are not spammable.

[JackStreicher]

2 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Fusiliers +20 is perhaps a little unexpected.

Weird since they do zero on their own. Rather put the Warforger to 160

 

Edit: It’s the usual knee-****** reaction - nerfing but not adjusting points or rules for OBVIOUSLY overcosted units (Cannons, Executioners, Sorceress on Dragon)

Edited November 9, 2023 by JackStreicher

[Dogmantra]

2 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

• Hexbane's Hunters and surprisingly Doralia ven Denst lose their hero keywords.

They lose the Leader role, not the Hero keyword. Since you have to take them with another Leader, it means you're not spending two of six leader slots on comparitively few models.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

17 minutes ago, Dogmantra said:

They lose the Leader role, not the Hero keyword. Since you have to take them with another Leader, it means you're not spending two of six leader slots on comparitively few models.

Oh, that's a stealthy buff to the Ven Densts in the form of two Orders for one leader slot, then. Also makes forming core battalions a bit easier.

[Satyrical Sophist]

4 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Oh, that's a stealthy buff to the Ven Densts in the form of two Orders for one leader slot, then. Also makes forming core battalions a bit easier.

Two heroes only taking up one hero slot for 80 points each is pretty tempting.

 

[Doko]

these changes dont make sense and are 100% only a reaction to all these  cryers that didnt even read the full book and only cried about the new stuff.

 

humans were ok,elfs were the best of the book and dwarfs plain bad.

 

now they nerfed EVERY playable human unit and rigth now humans are plain bad as dwarfs.

first hurricanum got a nerfed half damage doing it umplayable(0 mortals in turn 1 if you start,then 3,5 turn2,5 turn3 etc for almost 300 points is a ******)

the metal mage was obvious that was get a nerf due to everyone criers,but a mage with +1 and that CANT SELECT SPELLS OF OUR BOOK and is locked to only the same spell was fine for 80, 110 isnt the end of the world but they did him useless x2 or more and punish to those that got multiples of the bundle box

 

the fussilers were bad at 150 and needed a reduction to 130 but they got a increase,is only fun.....

 

170 for 5 rend1 damage(ignore captain because isnt relevant if we bring blocks of 30) 

 

idoneths reavers 160 for 8'8/10 rend1 damage

 

so if we dont buff them they are half damage than similar units for more points.

 

now if we buff them:

fusilers+mage 170+110 for 5 rend1 damage and 3,3 mortals

 

sentinels 160 to do 1,5 rend1 and 3,3 mortals.

so sentinels do the same mortals and dont have to pay 110 for a extra mage.

 

again how is posible compare fusilers to sentinels and fusilers cost more?

 

i have played many games and the fusillers are GREAT and auto include in every list but i never used them for their lackluster damage.

 

in every game i use fussilers as a shield against shooting to my hammerers and pirates,because when enemy know that i gonna get a free shooting if he shoot my dps units that i have close to the fusilers then they usually change targets.

also the order of supresive fire was great to give atack last to the target of my hammerers.

and the metal mage again was useles in every single game that i played,he almost never got the mortal wounds spell off because everyone use the primal dices to cancel it,but i dont care,i use him as bait,so enemy spend primal dices with him and i am free to use my two sorceress that are the mvp with the -1 hit,blizard,hoarfrost or the ignore save spells.

in general the fusilers+metal mage combo have been in paper and practice useless as damage combo,but great as suport.

now the combo is too much expensive and i dont know if i only gonna ignore them or replace my 30 fusilers to only 20. 

spend 520 points and one warlord trait for lackluster and unrelyable damage is too much but i dont know if worth it as support

 

oh and zelestra.......i really dont know whats the hype with her. i dont mind if they put her to 500 points because i hate the model and the rules.

a 66% chance(3+) of give ward5 that dont stack to only humans that allready have ward6 with stellhelms or luminark? seems stupid.

or a 66% chance to do 2 mortals to mages/priest(in maths is only 1,2 mortals that is bad)

to me zelestra cost must be around 120 but as i said i dont mind because i hate the model.

 

funny see many huge nerfs but 0,000000 buffs here to useless units as every dwarf(only hammerers are playable) or the cannon

Edited November 9, 2023 by Doko

[Landohammer]

Its almost like they are really afraid of Cannons in Greywater. But they don't seem to realize that even though you can duplicate All out attack, you still need 1 hero per cannon to capitalize on that. And who is going to camp a 100pt hero near a 150 cannon with 2 shots?

Yea I am still excited about the army because I love the models but i'm not super confident I am going to win many games. My record with the old points was 2-5-1 lol. 

 

[loky100]

Just read the FAQ. Surprised they did +20 to our fusillers was expecting +10. Rest I'm not surprised about. The sad thing is as other have said they didn't buff anything that is really weak. Also dark elves are still super strong and do better shooting then humans now with chariots.

Also I know this is picky but I'm annoyed that the dragon bite didn't get made into D6. Was D6 last book but got nerfed to D3. Sure its a mistake but they don't seem to care. I did email them about it oh well.

[Mandzak-Miniatures]

Hydra and kharibdyss are still too expensive

[JackStreicher]

4 hours ago, Mandzak-Miniatures said:

Hydra and kharibdyss are still too expensive

idc why they are afraid to make monsters that actually blend enemies.

[TheArborealWalrus]

15 hours ago, Doko said:

rigth now humans are plain bad as dwarfs

Having played mono dwarves for 5 games ... I don't believe you. Xp
Humans took it straight to the shorts though. 
I had been thinking to just up the warforger massively, not the fusiliers. They're pretty mediocre without stacking buffs onto them. Now you either double down on them or abandon them. Like sentinels before the rules nerf. A shame.
We'll see how things shake up.
Good luck everyone! For Sigmar!!

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

3 minutes ago, TheArborealWalrus said:

Now you either double down on them or abandon them. Like sentinels before the rules nerf.

I don't know about that, I think the diminishing returns of running more than one unit of Fusiliers are pretty substantial, so I don't personally see doubling down on them as the way to go. I think the sweet spot is one unit of 20 to 30.

However, I agree that not bringing Fusiliers at all is worth considering. The Alchemite is such a valuable support piece that basically all human units benefit from having around. Now that you are effectively limited to bringing just one of them, freeing up the Alchemite buffs, your command trait and possibly subfaction choice by just not running the mortal wounds shooting Fusilier setup becomes pretty attractive.