AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion

[Beliman]

On 10/1/2023 at 10:17 AM, JackStreicher said:

Of the 15 Damage the Guards deal she saves 10! (6+, 6++) killing only 2.5 Chaos warriors

She should promote that chaos warriors regiment to chosen.

[Satyrical Sophist]

My local shop has steam tanks in for some reason. Tempted to get some, had anyone tried steam tanks but not spamming them? Like 2-3? What do people think?

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

7 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

My local shop has steam tanks in for some reason. Tempted to get some, had anyone tried steam tanks but not spamming them? Like 2-3? What do people think?

I am planning to play a game with 2-3 steam tanks later this month. Will update you when I do.

Just from the armchair, I think running a Steam Tank and Commander pair at 500 is the sweet spot, because even at 3 tanks they start to warp your list building around them. A combined 24 wounds at a 2+ save is a great anvil that certain units will just not be able to break through. And the commander's ability to copy any command they use to a friendly steam tank means that you don't have to necessarily run any extra buff heroes with them.

In my opinion, if you look at the steam tank as a unit to spam, they are not that good. Their damage is still kind of low and they can't play the capture game well. But as a unit of one or two they are great at supporting a combined arms list.

[Colonic]

Something I am wondering. The Steam Tank has the Keywords STEAM TANK COMMANDER but not STEAM TANK. His Division Commander special rule allows him to issue orders two times to friendly STEAM TANK units. Does his STEAM TANK COMMANDER keyword let him benefit from that? A lot of people seem to be posting as if it does, making two steam tanks the sweet spot, but it seems to me like he has to order other tanks, not himself. The fluff for the rule even refers to other tanks. 

What am I missing?

[Morathi is my Goddess]

15 minutes ago, Colonic said:

Something I am wondering. The Steam Tank has the Keywords STEAM TANK COMMANDER but not STEAM TANK. His Division Commander special rule allows him to issue orders two times to friendly STEAM TANK units. Does his STEAM TANK COMMANDER keyword let him benefit from that? A lot of people seem to be posting as if it does, making two steam tanks the sweet spot, but it seems to me like he has to order other tanks, not himself. The fluff for the rule even refers to other tanks. 

What am I missing?

I'd say you're right and good pick up. I missed that and I suspect others will have too. Certainly hampered my plans to run 2 when...if they ever came back in stock in my area 🥲

Edited October 11, 2023 by Morathi is my Goddess

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

37 minutes ago, Colonic said:

Something I am wondering. The Steam Tank has the Keywords STEAM TANK COMMANDER but not STEAM TANK. His Division Commander special rule allows him to issue orders two times to friendly STEAM TANK units. Does his STEAM TANK COMMANDER keyword let him benefit from that? A lot of people seem to be posting as if it does, making two steam tanks the sweet spot, but it seems to me like he has to order other tanks, not himself. The fluff for the rule even refers to other tanks. 

What am I missing?

Yeah, I certainly misread that ability. Makes it quite a bit less useful. In my defense, I think it's fairly excusable not to ask yourself the question "Is a Steam Tank a STEAM TANK?".

It seems like the two Steam Tank warscrolls sadly still have some of that legacy jank. Another pitfall is that, while the Steam Tank Commander is mounted, the Steam Tank is not. This is importan, for example, for the Misthavn allegiance ability, but potentially also for interactions with artefacts such as the Magnificent Macroscope, which I believe does not affect the Tank Commanders cannon and steam gun, but does affect them for the regular tanks.

[Colonic]

I was hoping I was wrong! I have one Steam Tank, and was considering another to build as a commander to have some ST flavour without it dominating. I kind of feel that its either 1 or 3 now, and 3 is a lot.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Colonic

[Lord Krungharr]

I am unfortunately needing to sell my Steam Tank army and other stuff due to some medical expenses.  So I'll just leave this link in case anyone's interested.  (I have some Dark Aelves available too).

Cities of Sigmar Steam Tank x5 army lot Luminark Bits Lord Ordinator COOL | eBay

I added the UK and Canada to my shipping countries besides the USA...the eBay international system is a bit slow but has been pretty good at getting things to there with their international shipping system (otherwise the US Postal Service would want nearly $100 to get this size box via Priority Mail overseas, and to Canada probably at least $50).

[TheArborealWalrus]

On 10/11/2023 at 7:01 PM, Lord Krungharr said:

I am unfortunately needing to sell my Steam Tank army and other stuff due to some medical expenses. 

I wish you a speedy recovery sir. Medical problems are the worst.

[JackStreicher]

Had another 2k game today - this time no PtG

(all his Liberators and Vindictors are Protectir Proxies)

Victory for CoS, we turned it around hard at the end of turn 3. Fusiliers dealt solid damage this time (they shot 6x across the game averaging ~4.5 MWs and 10 wounding hits per salvo. Buffed with +1 to hit and MWs on 6s)

orders were very nice! (Return fire felt good)

I finally fielded the ImPeRiAL WaR PidGeOn and it was fine! (I love the model)

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by JackStreicher

[Lightbox]

What are people's thoughts on adding in the Elthwin's Thorns regiment of renown? I'm tempted to add it in for a bit of fun and some speedy flying harassing units but I'm not sure if they're just going to be a lot of points for something that won't help much. I already have an Arch-Revenant so would just need to pick up the gossamids.

[JackStreicher]

1 minute ago, Lightbox said:

What are people's thoughts on adding in the Elthwin's Thorns regiment of renown? I'm tempted to add it in for a bit of fun and some speedy flying harassing units but I'm not sure if they're just going to be a lot of points for something that won't help much. I already have an Arch-Revenant so would just need to pick up the gossamids.

Do you have a link to the regiment and the warscrolls? 🙂

[Lightbox]

6 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Do you have a link to the regiment and the warscrolls? 🙂

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/lupkX09pqasyeMBX.pdf Here you go!

Warscrolls can be found on Wahapedia, not sure if we're okay to link that site here though.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Lightbox
warscrolls

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, Lightbox said:

What are people's thoughts on adding in the Elthwin's Thorns regiment of renown? I'm tempted to add it in for a bit of fun and some speedy flying harassing units but I'm not sure if they're just going to be a lot of points for something that won't help much. I already have an Arch-Revenant so would just need to pick up the gossamids.

If you play Living city the deepstrike might make them nasty!

[Lightbox]

16 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

If you play Living city the deepstrike might make them nasty!

Ooh definitely worth trying. Anything within 18" of a board edge is at risk of a sudden gossamid snipe. Even if not an amazing damage output it could definitely be good for forcing a reaction to it and disrupting things.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

I finally got a game in yesterday. My opponent brought Kruleboyz.

Lists:

Spoiler

Cities of Sigmar

Hammerhal Aqsha

Steam Tank Commander (General, Firey Temper, Glimmering).

Celestial Hurricanum with Battlemage (Macroscope, Twin-Tailed Comet)

Galen ven Denst

Doralia ven Denst

 

Steam Tank

Steam Tank

Steelhelms

1250 points

 

Kruleboyz

Grinnin' Blades

Gobsprak

Snatchaboss on Sludgeraker (Egomaniak, Mork's Eye Pebble)

Swampcalla (Hoarfrost)

 

20 Gutrippaz

6 Boltboyz

Hobgrots

1250 Points

Some take aways:

Someone in this thread already mentioned that Steam Tanks feel pretty matchup dependent. The Kruleoboyz matchup is definitely pretty rough: My game plan was to drive within 15" (+3" shooting range from the macroscope) turn 1 and unload with all tank's steam guns and cannons in order to help blunt the counter-punch on my opponent's turn. However, the Grinnin' Blades subfaction made it so that I could not target my opponent's units outside of 12". To make matters worse, Kruleboyz get mortals on 6s on all their attacks, which makes the Steam Tank's 2+ save a lot less impregnable. None the less, the tanks held out pretty well and the game ended in turn 4 with only the Swampcalla and 4 Boltboyz surviving on my opponent's side.

I ran Hammerhal Aqsha because I wanted to get a feel for how good orders are. Spoilers: They good. Return fire made my opponent scared to shoot, effectively shutting the Boltboyz down for most of the game. One of my favourite moments of the game came from the Hobgrots throwing their grenades at a lone tank, dealing 0 wounds and losing half their unit from return fire.

Between this and Unleash Hell, the Tanks frequently got at least two shooting attacks in per turn. And with Power to the Guns and +1 to hit from the Hurricanum, their damage is actually pretty threatening.

Their melee is actually not too bad, either. I had a situation where my Tank Commander was stuck in melee, and my opponent had positioned himself such that a second Steam Tank was still outside of 3". Even though he got a double turn, I could counter-charge during his charge phase (triggering d3 charge mortals and that nice +1 rend) and managed to eventually grind down all 40 wounds worth of Gutrippaz. Also worth noting: Power to the guns lasts until your next hro phase, so you can counter shoot at full power if you get double turned.

My list had a lot of chances to act out of turn order, and the Hurricanum is another example of that. I was initially on the fence about it after it lost its cast bonus, but if it keeps its mortal wound bomb in both hero phases, I will definitely be bringing it every time going foreward. It is stupidly easy to set up at 18" not requiring line-of-sight (it actually sniped Gobsprak out of a completely unrelated combat at some point) and has very high synergy with Steam Tanks, which really appreciate the +1 to hit and keep the Hurricanum safe in return. I thought it was just a support piece, but it is a real threat in its own right.

I brought the Ven Densts because I wanted 2 cheap heroes for the Warlord battalion and had them painted. They didn't do much this game, but their extra 2 orders were welcome. The Grinnin' Blades ability sadly stopped me from sniping Gobsprak. I think I will probably keep going high drops in the future, so if I just want to squeeze in a few extra heroes, I might use them again.

The steelhelms kind of did exactly what I thought they would: Sit on a point and try not to get into combat. I had a situation where I used a lone Steam Tank to screen/tank for them, which to my relief worked out pretty well! I was a bit worried that 3 Tanks and a Hurricanum would lock me into a lopsided death star build of 1000 points, but the tanks do well enough on their own to be able to split off if they need to.

I ultimately lost this game, but I would say that is mostly due to me playing badly (I made really dumb mistakes playing the objective game and didn't prepare battle tactics at all). The tanks + hurricanum build itself seems fine.

In the future (or at higher points values) there are a few things I would like to adress. I will definitely be bringing the Command Squad. I frequently had the tanks and hurricanum survive at low health, and I think that their heal and command disruption could have really turned the tide of combat a few times. Likewise, access to a ward would be really good, so I think Zenestra is definitely a high priority inclusion for my list. I was considering a battlemage for the unrendability spell, but I found that I didn't really have a lot of trouble with rend just through counter-stacking save bonuses. Instead, I would like to try the spell that shuts off commands. I also think the list would be a lot better if it included a more mobile unit like Cavaliliers. Firey Temper did nothing this game, as I found I didn't really need the early charge. I will try the Divine Champion instead. Glimmering was good, but I always forgot I had it.

Overall, I liked the Steam Tanks. They are definitely way better than in 2nd ed. And the Hurricanum was a real stand out. But the Tanks definitely also have some pretty significant downsides, and I would not want to build a pure tank spam list, ultimately.

 

[megaL3]

Hi folks,

I'm trying to figure out what I wanna get when the CoS come out (2 weeks!) and while I've got a general skeleton for a list (using the limited box as a starting point), I'm 350 points short and not sure what to fill it with, any help would be great. List as is is:

Heroes:

Freeguild Marshal and Relic Envoy (90)

Alchemite Warforger (90)

- General, Master of Ballistics, Hoarfrost

Fusil-Major (150)

- Macroscope

Pontifex Zenestra (150)

Tahlia Vedra (340)

Battleline:

Freeguild Steelhelms (100)

Freeguild Steelhelms (100)

Freeguild Fusiliers Reinforced (300)

Freeguild Cavaliers (180)

Artillery:

Ironweld Great Cannon (150)

 

My two ideas are either to double-reinforce the Fusiliers and add a Battlemage with and another squad of Steelhelms to add even more ranged punch and guys on board, or to reinforce the Cavaliers and add a Cavalier-Marshal to give some solid counter-charge. Any thoughts? Any help would be really lovely.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

14 hours ago, megaL3 said:

Hi folks,

I'm trying to figure out what I wanna get when the CoS come out (2 weeks!) and while I've got a general skeleton for a list (using the limited box as a starting point), I'm 350 points short and not sure what to fill it with, any help would be great. List as is is:

Heroes:

Freeguild Marshal and Relic Envoy (90)

Alchemite Warforger (90)

- General, Master of Ballistics, Hoarfrost

Fusil-Major (150)

- Macroscope

Pontifex Zenestra (150)

Tahlia Vedra (340)

Battleline:

Freeguild Steelhelms (100)

Freeguild Steelhelms (100)

Freeguild Fusiliers Reinforced (300)

Freeguild Cavaliers (180)

Artillery:

Ironweld Great Cannon (150)

 

My two ideas are either to double-reinforce the Fusiliers and add a Battlemage with and another squad of Steelhelms to add even more ranged punch and guys on board, or to reinforce the Cavaliers and add a Cavalier-Marshal to give some solid counter-charge. Any thoughts? Any help would be really lovely.

I think the Cavalier-Marshall is a good addition if you are already running Cavaliers. It really is a significant power up for them.

The Freeguild Command Corps is another generally strong addition, especially since you already have a Freeguild-Marshal in your list.

Otherwise, since you are running Tahlia Vedra, you could think about reinforcing your Steelhelms.

[Satyrical Sophist]

Rules for Ionus are up. At 400 he just fits in as an ally. I think as a Stormcast priest he gets access to the lethis prayer and can autosucceed on it. Might be optimism based on how cool I think the model is.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 minute ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

Rules for Ionus are up. At 400 he just fits in as an ally. I think as a Stormcast priest he gets access to the lethis prayer and can autosucceed on it. Might be optimism based on how cool I think the model is.

Good shout out, I had not though about him as an ally. Although I think I would rather want to auto-succeed his better Chain Lightning in a lot of cases.

I am still wondering about what Stormcast allies could be fun to run. Maybe the next edition starter box will bring some more cool stuff. Personally, my main problem is that there is already too much cool Cities stuff I can't fit in my lists, haha.

[Satyrical Sophist]

34 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Good shout out, I had not though about him as an ally. Although I think I would rather want to auto-succeed his better Chain Lightning in a lot of cases.

I am still wondering about what Stormcast allies could be fun to run. Maybe the next edition starter box will bring some more cool stuff. Personally, my main problem is that there is already too much cool Cities stuff I can't fit in my lists, haha.

I think SCE allies can be used to fill a few roles. 

I think our wizards are too good to replace for most of them, and heroes come at a bit of a premium for CoS due to orders. The only hero I am interested in is the Knight Judicator and maybe Ionus. The knight Judicator can put mortals down field and also comes with a pair of gryf hound buddies who can help with battle tactics. His shooting profile is pretty good as well, and if I remember correctly Greywaters additional AoA doesn't have restrictions on targeting, just that it needs to be issued by a Greywater hero. Having a profile of 3+/2+/-3/3 upping that to 2+/2+ is pretty nice.

There are three other areas where I think SCE fill a gap, one major and two niche.

If you have built a more castle based CoS build you might struggle to grab further away objectives. Something like the questor soulsworn, palladors, or vanguard hunters with teleport on demand could really help get you those points without having to break up your castle. That's an area where khinerai or tree revs could fit as well.

The other areas are pretty niche but interesting. Gryff hounds are a cheap unit and at 9 inches move they are pretty much fast enough to travel with and screen caviliers if you run with them. I also quite like vigilors for being able to put a +1 hit debuff on an enemy unit, which can help if you are running MSU. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

9 minutes ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

I think SCE allies can be used to fill a few roles. 

I think our wizards are too good to replace for most of them, and heroes come at a bit of a premium for CoS due to orders. The only hero I am interested in is the Knight Judicator and maybe Ionus. The knight Judicator can put mortals down field and also comes with a pair of gryf hound buddies who can help with battle tactics. His shooting profile is pretty good as well, and if I remember correctly Greywaters additional AoA doesn't have restrictions on targeting, just that it needs to be issued by a Greywater hero. Having a profile of 3+/2+/-3/3 upping that to 2+/2+ is pretty nice.

There are three other areas where I think SCE fill a gap, one major and two niche.

If you have built a more castle based CoS build you might struggle to grab further away objectives. Something like the questor soulsworn, palladors, or vanguard hunters with teleport on demand could really help get you those points without having to break up your castle. That's an area where khinerai or tree revs could fit as well.

The other areas are pretty niche but interesting. Gryff hounds are a cheap unit and at 9 inches move they are pretty much fast enough to travel with and screen caviliers if you run with them. I also quite like vigilors for being able to put a +1 hit debuff on an enemy unit, which can help if you are running MSU. 

The Questors Soulsworn are also my current favourites. I think their deepstrike seems like it would be very handy.

My biggest problem with picking allies might be that I want them to be lore appropriate if I include them, so stuff like Gryphhounds and Aetherwings are out, even though I know cheap, fast chaff is good. I wish Vanquishers were a bit better, because they are literally the greatsword-wielding elite infantry the new Cities range is missing.

[rattila]

On the other hand, what units of the new cities of sigmar make great allies for stormcast eternals ? Steelhelms for bodies ? The cannon? Or other things? I did not have read the warscrolls already.

[Satyrical Sophist]

5 hours ago, rattila said:

On the other hand, what units of the new cities of sigmar make great allies for stormcast eternals ? Steelhelms for bodies ? The cannon? Or other things? I did not have read the warscrolls already.

I think you are looking for stuff that does unusual stuff and doesn't depend on orders or unique magic.

 

The command corps being able to stop commands is situationally very powerful, and the command corps are pretty cheap per wound. Keeping the spy and sawbones alive til last let's you keep stopping command traits and the unit can heal itself back up (it's not amazing at it, since you only expect about one model a turn, but it can spike).

The khharibys (spelling is definitely wrong) is a relatively cheap monster that messes with the opponents morale.

I don't think Dark Riders are good, but if the points drop slightly they also are a fast unit that messes with command points.

I could also see some armies wanting to take scourgerunner chariots. 80 points for a fast shooting chariot.

Some other stuff starts to bump up against the ally points limit, you can almost get a unit of drakespawn and 3 drakespawn chariots but end up 10 over. 

[loky100]

So got a tournament in Dec.

I think steam tanks are quite strong and here is my list idea.

City: Lethis This is to turn off wards. Also allows the steam tank commanders to get heal which is strong on a 2+ save.

Steam Tank Commander : Divine Champion and Macroscope artifact.

Steam tank Commander:

Steam Tank

Steam Tank

Steam Tank

Zenestra for the ward save

Command Corps for heal and turn off command abilities

Cavaliers for a counter charge and steal objectives.

Celestial Hurricanum for the +1 to hit for the tanks and mortals.

Put it in a 2 drop. Grand srat is no mages on the board.

 

This list might have a problem with holding the points but I'm hoping with average 30 damage in the shooting phase I can just clear them and hold them with a tank. Also allows me to do all the human battle tactics which will help a lot.

 

What do people think about it? I'm gonna try it this week and see how it goes.