AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion

[Doko]

the problem of skaven as stormcast arent the units or points,are the bad battletactics of their books,they gonna add easy tactics to these books as they did to orcs in next balance.

orcs in every faction have got a huge increase in win rate only with this new battle tactic so skaven and stormcast must get it too

[Skreech Verminking]

5 hours ago, Doko said:

the problem of skaven as stormcast arent the units or points,are the bad battletactics of their books,they gonna add easy tactics to these books as they did to orcs in next balance.

orcs in every faction have got a huge increase in win rate only with this new battle tactic so skaven and stormcast must get it too

True, but lately I’ve seen so many skaven list and it seems to be almost always the same 5-6 units taken in different variants.

 

[Gorthor21]

That’s the same as it was in WFB atleast it’s not like other factions who only have 5-6 options altogether.

[Lord Krungharr]

Starting the Dark Aelves Cult of Cthulu.  Assembling some boxes of Executioners.  Was considering making 10 Black Guard/10 Executioners, but I think 20 Executioners is too spicy to not do. 

Hoping the Black Guard bits will fit onto the Dreadspears okay.  Looks like I just have to clip a flat spot on the shoulders of the arm bits, and of course, lop off the unfancy heads.  Guess they deserve some capes but I want 2x10 Black Guard for Battleline.

Probably not super OP, and everything is rather squishy and vulnerable.  But should be pretty fast and shifty, with a few potentially deadly shock units, possibly striking first with good Orders discipline.  Wish the Dreadlord on Dragon was cheaper though, feel like I need a tougher Hero to get in there...woulda been neat to have a Drakespawn Dreadlord like that old Malus Darkblade had.  At least I think he did?

Tentative list for this (probably) Misthavn army:

Sorceress (general, Secretive Warlock, Anklet of Epiphany, Tenebrael Blades)

Sorceress (Umbral Hex)

Fleetmaster (maybe Venomfang Blade, or just Amulet of Destiny?)

2x10 Black Guard (battleline)

10 Bleakswords (batteline)

20 Executioners

20 Corsairs w paired blades

2 Kharybdisses

Geminids

Cthulhu Whalebiter

[JackStreicher]

@Lord Krungharr sounds good!

As you‘ve pointed out: They’re fragile. Remembering how my Corsairs (same 4+ save) died in droves I struggle to justify 170 pts for executioners.

My reasoning is that we lack a delivery mechanism (teleport/deepstrike) to protect them from shooting. Realistically I‘d expect 7-9 Executioners to actually make it into combat.

As baseline: Against shooting even my 20x Black Guard with a 4+ 4++ fell apart in an instant (losing 7+ per turn)

 

About Black Guard:

You‘ll find yourself conga-lining most of the time since your sorceress won’t be charging - which feels bad and diminished their output by a lot. Offensively it’d be awesome if the 4++ would work with the Dragon Sorceress (which is currently unplayable), since she would charge into battle as well

-> I don’t get why their rule is supposed not to work with the Sorceress. She‘s an overcosted 5+ Monster-Hero with only one cast, bad melee potential, and degrading stats, the 4++ would make her usable. I don’t get it tbh. They‘ve been working really hard to male us not use those Dragons for years now.

Edited August 23, 2023 by JackStreicher

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

10 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

@Lord Krungharr sounds good!

As you‘ve pointed out: They’re fragile. Remembering how my Corsairs (same 4+ save) died in droves I struggle to justify 170 pts for executioners.

My reasoning is that we lack a delivery mechanism (teleport/deepstrike) to protect them from shooting. Realistically I‘d expect 7-9 Executioners to actually make it into combat.

As baseline: Against shooting even my 20x Black Guard with a 4+ 4++ fell apart in an instant (losing 7+ per turn)

 

About Black Guard:

You‘ll find yourself conga-lining most of the time since your sorceress won’t be charging - which feels bad and diminished their output by a lot. Offensively it’d be awesome if the 4++ would work with the Dragon Sorceress (which is currently unplayable), since she would charge into battle as well

-> I don’t get why their rule is supposed not to work with the Sorceress. She‘s an overcosted 5+ Monster-Hero with only one cast, bad melee potential,ä and degrading stats, the 4++ would make her usable. I don’t get it tbh.

That's why I am kinda lukewarm about Executioners (and to a lesser extent Hammerers, which can at least take a punch and grind out an engagement). Executioners read like Grave Guard at first glance, but Grave Guard get to deep strike for free and are way easier to buff. Corsairs are in a similar boat, too. Their damage potential is sky high, but delivery is pretty hard.

That's why I still prefer the mounted Dark Elf units. Their rules and battle tactic tell me that Dark Elves want to be mobile and cycle charge a lot. The Sorceress, however, encourages building a fairly slow, squishy melee death star. I don't personally think that is super good. You can't currently snipe the Sorceress, but you can just shoot or charge the buff receiving unit off the board fairly easily.

[JackStreicher]

Different Question: How would you play „fairly“ with our orders? To me they’re kind of trap cards (yu-gi-oh!)

I‘ll explain what I can do pre game and will gladly repeat it during the game. But when my opponents for example shoots a unit with a hidden order I am not sure if I should remind them that it could be return fire or not. On one hand gottchas suck on the other that seems to be a big part of the orders system in a way ( It’s a mind game: I might remind them either way if I don’t want them to shoot the unit for example or to make their decisions harder)

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

3 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Different Question: How would you play „fairly“ with our orders? To me they’re kind of trap cards (yu-gi-oh!)

I‘ll explain what I can do pre game and will gladly repeat it during the game. But when my opponents for example shoots a unit with a hidden order I am not sure if I should remind them that it could be return fire or not. On one hand gottchas suck on the other that seems to be a big part of the orders system in a way ( It’s a mind game: I might remind them either way if I don’t want them to shoot the unit for example or to make their decisions harder)

I don't think you need to feel bad for using a "hidden information" mechanic as intended. The first few games, I would definitely remind people, but once everyone is used to the way Cities plays it is on them. All the info is on the board. In my mind, falling for a counter-fire order is no different from positioning yourself badly and catching a charge.

[The Lost Sigmarite]

I like this colour scheme with all those heraldic marine critters, what city is this ? It certainly looks cool, and unlike the 11 official book colour schemes. 

[JackStreicher]

15 minutes ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

I like this colour scheme with all those heraldic marine critters, what city is this ? It certainly looks cool, and unlike the 11 official book colour schemes. 

Could we please talk about THE AMAZEBALLS POSE of the second Knight on the left!?

/*Hysteric Fan Screeching activated
That's what I've always wanted (for Bretonnia as well)
FREAKING GIVE ME THOSE MODELS NOOOOOW
NOW I SAY IR SINGLE PERSON RIOT iN FRONT OF THE NOTTINGHAM HEADWQUARTER
deactivated*/

 

Edit: A Little less hype, it looked like the mount was landing from a jump (which it isn't) still amazing!
And agreed I love maretime themes (I used to be a Marienburg nerd)

Edited August 23, 2023 by JackStreicher

[Doko]

11 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Different Question: How would you play „fairly“ with our orders? To me they’re kind of trap cards (yu-gi-oh!)

I‘ll explain what I can do pre game and will gladly repeat it during the game. But when my opponents for example shoots a unit with a hidden order I am not sure if I should remind them that it could be return fire or not. On one hand gottchas suck on the other that seems to be a big part of the orders system in a way ( It’s a mind game: I might remind them either way if I don’t want them to shoot the unit for example or to make their decisions harder)

if it is a tournament i wont say anything,if it isnt a tournament i gonna advise the first game or two or if i know the enemy and he is a 0 thinking dude  that only want have fun then i gonna advice him(some many friends that dont want think while playing,and only want go to melle and throw dices)

[Lord Krungharr]

Regarding Orders, counters/tokens (even a scrap of paper with the Order written on it) is an absolute must.  I wouldn't let people play them without it.

[Lord Krungharr]

Stanks vs KO, stanks got tabled turn 4.  KO are pretty darn brutal, even in combat.   I shoulda shot at the balloon boys inside the boats first.   Battle tactics are hard these days no matter what.  So are grand strategies.  I think with a little tooling and 1 or 2 less tanks they can get better support and some other units to go off to nab other objectives. 

Luminark is meh without Living City for the prime positioning, and a 6+ ward is alright but nothing to write home about.  Think I'd use the Mage version next time for Pha's Protection, which is excellent on a Commander-Tank.  

Next Stank practice game will be tomorrow I think vs Soulblight.  I'll trade out the Luminark, Vigilors, and probably 1 Tank for allied Tree Revenants, Lord-O, and some Cavaliers and a CavMarshal.  That'll give me at least some extra combat prowess, a teleporting unit, and more speed, plus an extra Order.  Though I will say with the More Pressure thing and Advance Formation those tanks can move!

[JackStreicher]

2 hours ago, Doko said:

some many friends that dont want think while playing,and only want go to melle and throw dices

I understand that. I for one have a demanding job that drains me mentally. I often just want to throw dice and have some fun (while trying to not play horribly)

[Lord Krungharr]

Anyone know about the Cavalier and CavMarshal base sizes?  Thought I saw somewhere they're on the 60x35mm ovals but can't seem to find it in when I'm searching.

 

[Asbestress]

11 hours ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

I like this colour scheme with all those heraldic marine critters, what city is this ? It certainly looks cool, and unlike the 11 official book colour schemes. 

It's Hammerhal Ghyra.

And that sword pose is soo good.

[Lightbox]

As the current assumption for Cavaliers is 60x35mm bases does anyone know how much overhang demigryph knights have on that smaller base size? I have 6 demi's and figure if they aren't too big on those bases then they might make a nice additional cavalier unit for me so I can still get some use out of the models

 

 

Also now we have cavalier's I've realised that my bretonnians I'd collected now potentially have a nice new home.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Lightbox

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, Lightbox said:

As the current assumption for Cavaliers is 60x35mm bases does anyone know how much overhang demigryph knights have on that smaller base size? I have 6 demi's and figure if they aren't too big on those bases then they might make a nice additional cavalier unit for me so I can still get some use out of the models

 

 

Also now we have cavalier's I've realised that my bretonnians I'd collected now potentially have a nice new home.

The Demi should fit nicely (length). Its width might be a little tight.

[JackStreicher]

Free Pavese .stl for anyone wanting to convert their old gunners

 

 

 

[ReclusiarchRed]

Does anyone think picking up 2 of the launch boxes is a good idea? 

[Morathi is my Goddess]

Really depends on your own situation and hobby. For me not really, unless you're in a rush to get more steelhelms. I don't need 2 books or Marshals and probably wont ever use 40 steelhelms.

The vanguard should hopefully be a better mix but thats an unknown and some ways away.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

30 minutes ago, ReclusiarchRed said:

Does anyone think picking up 2 of the launch boxes is a good idea? 

Are you building towards a Steelhelm Horde list? In that case, maybe.

I personally think Hammerhal Ghyra horde with Tahlia Vedra is a viable list archetype, but people are not currently thinking about it because nobody wants to paint a hundred Steelhelms and Flagellants.

Personally, I would only get one box and try to not fall into the trap of buying stuff I don't actually want or need just because it is at a discount.

[JackStreicher]

10 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Personally, I would only get one box and try to not fall into the trap of buying stuff I don't actually want or need just because it is at a discount.

Agreed. Just wait for the first few units to pop up on ebay and buy what you need. No one needs two boxes (books, markers etc going to waste, marshals etc.)

[Lord Krungharr]

10 hours ago, ReclusiarchRed said:

Does anyone think picking up 2 of the launch boxes is a good idea? 

You could pretty easily find someone to buy the book and cards, and you'd have plenty of Steelhelms to surround the Pontifex (cuz you'll want her later), and double cavalry which are looking excellent!  Toss in any other human units, maybe a Hurricanum or some Battlemages, and that's a great human list for many of the Cities.

[Lord Krungharr]

I'm thinking about my Dark Aelves and the awesome spells they have.  Looks like 2-3 Sorceresses would be good, if not necessary, to max out the usage of their abilities to shore up the glass-cannons that are the D'Aelves.  

Seems like they should be able to get off Tenebrael Shards much of the time with a sacrifice (so they'll need at least 20 Dreadspears for that).  I also like the theoretical combo of Umbral Hex plus the Kharybdis, but a Spell Portal might be needed to launch the Hex far enough.  I usually avoid Endless Spells but the Portal could be good for the Shards also, even with the Anklet of Epiphany's range buff.  Gotta keep the ladies out of harm's way.

Not sure I want to build 20 Corsairs for my old Lokhir Fellheart to lead, so I might make him a Cthulhoid Dragon to ride and be a Dreadlord.  I like the Drakespawn Knights with accompanying chariot(s) though.  In Misthavn that's a solid turn 1 charge, followed by waves of maybe Dreadlord with Kharybdiss and Hydras, then Executioners.   

Looking at the Cities tactics, hard to do too many with the Aelves.  Could do the 3 charging units one, possibly Suppressed Fire one with the Hydras, unlikely to do the Blackpowder one with any army unless it's just all shooty.