Dealing with new release disappointment and model loss

[zilberfrid]

10 hours ago, Wraith said:

The Landsknecht idea reflects the choice of the early modern era for the setting. Take a look at Albrecht Durer's art style to see where a lot of Warhammer art gets it's inspiration from.

The Italian Wars are a great period to wargame. Warhammer takes that and adds monsters and magic. Modern fantasy, or should I say late modern era fantasy, doesn't have the same aesthetic. AoS seems to be more contemporary in it's fantasy style, hence the D&D like feel.

If anyone knows miniatures based on this woodcarving, I'd be very much interested.

[Wraith]

44 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

If anyone knows miniatures based on this woodcarving, I'd be very much interested.

A search of historical 28mm minis for the Italian Wars will turn up some similar models based on the illustration. These models will typically be smaller than current fantasy models. I have something similar to Durer's illustration in 20mm soft plastic, but I doubt that is what you are after.

 

If you scroll down to the light cavalry, they have some models based on this illustration.

https://www.steelfistminiatures.com/product-category/italian-wars-1494-1538/page/3/

 

Eureka have something similar, though this is a French 'Archer' (why is a heavy cavalry trooper called an archer...long story):

https://www.eurekaminuk.com/collections/italian-wars/products/italian-wars-archer-sallet-open-visor-28mm

 

There would be other stuff out there. These Lancer minis look good, but don't yet have the one you want in their range. Maybe pester them to produce it?

Here's what their Zweihander look like (usable as Empire Greatswordsmen).

https://lancerminiatures.com/product/zweihander-x4/

 

 

Not that WFB Empire armies look anything like armies of this period...wait, yes they do!

 

[Lich King]

12 hours ago, Gitzdee said:

Thanks for trying to help. I know about OPR. Doesnt do it for me. Im very busy and it is hard to learn more systems and also find players that are willing to do the same. 

No worries. I tried it and haven't gone back to GW game systems (which i feel are terrible anyway). OPR system is designed to be a sound rule system without having you buy anything. Rules are free and far more competitive than anything GW can make up. In addition, they are releasing 3rd edition later this year so it's definitely something I highly recommend and can vouch for. * I'm a previous GW - only devotee *

[Wraith]

Wait! OPR = One Page Rules. Ok, I get it! I was wondering what OPR was. I was thinking it could have stood for Overproof Rum? I mean, that would be one way of coping with new release disappointment and model loss.

[zilberfrid]

On 7/17/2023 at 11:11 AM, Wraith said:

A search of historical 28mm minis for the Italian Wars will turn up some similar models based on the illustration. These models will typically be smaller than current fantasy models. I have something similar to Durer's illustration in 20mm soft plastic, but I doubt that is what you are after.

 

If you scroll down to the light cavalry, they have some models based on this illustration.

https://www.steelfistminiatures.com/product-category/italian-wars-1494-1538/page/3/

 

Eureka have something similar, though this is a French 'Archer' (why is a heavy cavalry trooper called an archer...long story):

https://www.eurekaminuk.com/collections/italian-wars/products/italian-wars-archer-sallet-open-visor-28mm

 

There would be other stuff out there. These Lancer minis look good, but don't yet have the one you want in their range. Maybe pester them to produce it?

Here's what their Zweihander look like (usable as Empire Greatswordsmen).

https://lancerminiatures.com/product/zweihander-x4/

 

 

Not that WFB Empire armies look anything like armies of this period...wait, yes they do!

 

I looked at my models, and I think I can make a decent attempt with a Demigryph knight (empire knight is plainer) Pistoleer horse, beastman and some form of vampire for Death. There is no great dog, so I'll have to print that

[Gitzdee]

21 hours ago, Lich King said:

No worries. I tried it and haven't gone back to GW game systems (which i feel are terrible anyway). OPR system is designed to be a sound rule system without having you buy anything. Rules are free and far more competitive than anything GW can make up. In addition, they are releasing 3rd edition later this year so it's definitely something I highly recommend and can vouch for. * I'm a previous GW - only devotee *

U all convinced me to look into OPR again, its been a few years since i last checked and it looks more streamlined now. Might look into it some more.

[Tervindar]

2 hours ago, Gitzdee said:

U all convinced me to look into OPR again, its been a few years since i last checked and it looks more streamlined now. Might look into it some more.

Would highly recommend OPR, also. Doesn't take much to learn it, compared to AoS or other equivalent games, more so about getting you into the actual game with less friction. 

[Noserenda]

I was always put off One page rules because the rules are more than one page, and if they are lying in the title...

[Lich King]

5 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

I was always put off One page rules because the rules are more than one page, and if they are lying in the title...

it originally was one page and the basic part can still fit - but the actual rules with Nuance are about 15 pages or so - totally free as well. They even have an extra “Competetive page “ I addition if you want full rules to that level - also free. They are coming out with a 3rd edition later this year which is going to compile everything under one umbrella so it’ll be even easier to read / get into : )

[SunStorm]

Whilst this is for 40k, GW have released updated Legends datasheets for the new edition: 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/21/warhammer-legends-bring-your-heroes-back-to-the-battlefield-with-free-rules-downloads/

Once the Dawnbringer book comes up, something along the same lines would be very helpful for AoS, along with any other older models people might have. 

 

For me the important bit is that we should be making it common for these to be used as GW intends:

Quote

 

Legends are fully usable in all of your regular games of Warhammer 40,000* – in fact, we actively encourage you to use these classic miniatures at home, in store, and at your local Warhammer clubs.

* The only place you can’t use them is in an official tournament.

 

 

 

In my humble opinion, we as the playerbase should encourage more general games where things like Legends are accepted and focus less on following Tournament/Competitive road. 

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by SunStorm

[Freemeta]

thx, i discovered OPR and i could be in love with duchies of vinci miniatures, i would love to have this Da vinci theme for cities of sigmar (automata brutes, assassin, winged like catraza )

https://only-games.co/collections/onepagerules?sort_by=created-descending&filter.p.m.shop3d.range=Duchies+of+Vinci

[Gitzdee]

5 hours ago, SunStorm said:

In my humble opinion, we as the playerbase should encourage more general games where things like Legends are accepted and focus less on following Tournament/Competitive road. 

I fully support this. Its almost like 99% of the player base doesnt know other game modes exist and are worth playing.

[Hollow]

4 hours ago, Gitzdee said:

I fully support this. Its almost like 99% of the player base doesnt know other game modes exist and are worth playing.

Funnily enough, I think the reality is the complete opposite. I believe the vast, vast majority of Warhammer games are played in casual environments amongst friends. The hyper-focused, online crowd of meta-chasing tourney players are in fact the minority but think they are the majority (mainly because they dominate online discourse).

This is my own personal opinion but I think if you were able to really look into it, the percentage of customers who have purchased a product from GW in the last 12 months and not even played a single Warhammer game (never mind a competitive one) in that time, accounts for 90%+ of the total customer base. 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Hollow

[Gitzdee]

19 minutes ago, Hollow said:

Funnily enough, I think the reality is the complete opposite. I believe the vast, vast majority of Warhammer games are played in casual environments amongst friends. The hyper-focused, online crowd of meta-chasing tourney players are in fact the minority but think they are the majority (mainly because they dominate online discourse).

This is my own personal opinion but I think if you were able to really look into it, the percentage of customers who have purchased a product from GW in the last 12 months and not even played a single Warhammer game (never mind a competitive one) in that time, accounts for 90%+ of the total customer base. 

My area couldnt be more different. Its almost matched play or go home mentality here. Or people just collect and paint to a high level. Not the best setting to get into imho. Warcry works for me though.

[Marcvs]

7 hours ago, Hollow said:

Funnily enough, I think the reality is the complete opposite. I believe the vast, vast majority of Warhammer games are played in casual environments amongst friends. The hyper-focused, online crowd of meta-chasing tourney players are in fact the minority but think they are the majority (mainly because they dominate online discourse).

This is my own personal opinion but I think if you were able to really look into it, the percentage of customers who have purchased a product from GW in the last 12 months and not even played a single Warhammer game (never mind a competitive one) in that time, accounts for 90%+ of the total customer base. 

But that (the second half) is exactly the point. The vast majority of GW customers will never play a game with their minis or will do so once/twice a year.

So, the experience of a random player looking for a game is likely to be that the vast majority of games being actually played is played using matched play rules.

[Hollow]

9 hours ago, Marcvs said:

But that (the second half) is exactly the point

Well... it kinda wasn't. I would have agreed if the point was a NEW player entering the hobby will get that impression because matched play dominates online debate and many pick-up spaces. I was disagreeing with the assertion that 99% of the existing player base is only aware of matched rules. I think the vast majority of players playing the game are doing so in casual environments. 

This is purely anecdotal and I could be completely wrong. Although I feel like there is quite a difference between gaming scenes in Europe and the USA. The US seems to be a lot more competitive and focused on points/meta/tournies than in Europe.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Hollow

[Marcvs]

3 hours ago, Hollow said:

I think the vast majority of players playing the game are doing so in casual environments. 

Based on my experience and every discussion with someone in my community, I'd say the vast majority of players are playing with matched play rules (whether in a casual environment or in a more competitive one).

[Hollow]

I think the vast majority of people playing GW games are not on forums/ at tournaments and don't play in clubs or at Warhammer/FLG stores but in their living rooms with 1 or 2 friends. They aren't part of "gaming communities" in any way. It's all anecdotal I suppose. I just don't see how a company selling hundreds of millions of pounds worth of products a year can be supported by the mere thousands of people represented in groups and online. Even the biggest tournaments in the world have less than 1k participants. 

[Grimrock]

I think geographical location is really important to remember when having discussions like this. Price and population density can massively impact the perception of the hobby and those vary wildly depending on where you are in the world. I've been in the hobby for nearly 25 years now and I struggle to understand how it's possible anybody could buy these models from a pure hobby perspective with no care for the rules whatsoever. In my part of the world they're just too expensive to consider for me if I'm not going to get the full enjoyment of modelling, painting, and gaming. If I lived in the UK with their prices then maybe I could imagine a world where I didn't care that my models were suddenly unusable, but as is it's just mind blowing to hear. 

Even the concept of playing purely with friends in a basement is a little bizarre to me. I first got into the game with a friend, but I've never been able to convince any other friends to get into the game and stick with it. Models are too expensive and there's too much time commitment. After high school my friend couldn't afford the game anymore and I was left with playing at a LGS exclusively. That hasn't changed in the last 18 or so years. Nobody I know has even the slightest interest in dropping thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours. Again maybe in a part of the world where the game has more general popularity and is more affordable I could see basement gaming being more prevalent, but here it just seems impossible. 

Alternate gaming systems are also almost laughable for me. I've seen a few come and go, and played a number of them myself, but the only one that's sticks is Warhammer plain and simple. There just aren't enough people where I live for there to be any type of regular gaming on a variety of systems. Just for an example, the population density of the UK is about 280 people per square kilometer. The density in my province is about 6.7. I live in one of the biggest cities in my country with a little over a million people. The next closest city around that size is a little over 3 hours away by car. The next is about 12 hours away.

I guess to bring this on topic, people experience the hobby if vastly different ways around the world. If you bought some models with some pocket change and got dozens of games in with your mates then yeah you'll probably feel like you got your money's worth and won't mind too much when they get rotated out. If you had to save for a month to buy a single infantry kit and you can only play at a gaming store that's a 40 minute drive away once a month then your perception of value will be wildly different. 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Grimrock

[Hollow]

6 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

I've been in the hobby for nearly 25 years now and I struggle to understand how it's possible anybody could buy these models from a pure hobby perspective with no care for the rules whatsoever.

Surely in that time, you have seen just how redundant "rules" for models actually are. They are just abstract made-up ideas and concepts that can be changed with a simple sentence between friends. I struggle to understand how it's possible anybody could buy these models for anything OTHER than a pure Hobby perspective, it's the only thing that actually lasts. In my world (40k at least) there are 10 editions worth of rules and the same models all have different rules in each of them. The rules come and go. The models stay forever. 

It takes all types and people just have very different experiences. The people I know consider this hobby to be very value-driven generally. A few hundred quid and you have something that can literally be used for decades. 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Hollow

[Grimrock]

42 minutes ago, Hollow said:

Surely in that time, you have seen just how redundant "rules" for models actually are. They are just abstract made-up ideas and concepts that can be changed with a simple sentence between friends. I struggle to understand how it's possible anybody could buy these models for anything OTHER than a pure Hobby perspective, it's the only thing that actually lasts. In my world (40k at least) there are 10 editions worth of rules and the same models all have different rules in each of them. The rules come and go. The models stay forever. 

It takes all types and people just have very different experiences. The people I know consider this hobby to be very value-driven generally. A few hundred quid and you have something that can literally be used for decades. 

See that's exactly what I'm talking about. You can play with your friends in a tight group where you can modify and tweak rules and use outdated models all you want. For me the game is played entirely at a LGS with matched play rules where the majority of the time I have either very little or absolutely no prior connection with the person I'm playing. For you having models rotated out isn't a big deal, your friends don't care if you're using Lorenzo Lupo in a City of Sigmar army or any other kit from 20 years ago for that matter. For me having a unit get moved to legends could mean it literally never sees the table again. The rules may be abstract concepts for you that hold next to no meaning, but for me they're the only thing that holds the game together. 

edit: also, you're not wrong saying it's tough to believe anyone could be interested in the game when you depend on the rules. Like I said in my post, it's an extremely tough sell trying to get people interested in the game over here because the value really just isn't there for most people. I really love the hobby and game aspects so I can stick with it, but the vast majority of people I know wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Grimrock

[Marcvs]

6 hours ago, Hollow said:

I think the vast majority of people playing GW games are not on forums/ at tournaments and don't play in clubs or at Warhammer/FLG stores but in their living rooms with 1 or 2 friends. They aren't part of "gaming communities" in any way. It's all anecdotal I suppose. I just don't see how a company selling hundreds of millions of pounds worth of products a year can be supported by the mere thousands of people represented in groups and online. Even the biggest tournaments in the world have less than 1k participants. 

I don't see why the size of tournaments is relevant here: playing with matched play rules just means 1) playing with points and 2) not using path to glory or similar additional "narrative" set of rules. Outside of some purely introductory games using the content of a starter box, I've never met someone who was playing without using points, even at home, playing on the floor using books as cover and beer cans as trees.

So, basically, our anecdotal experience disagrees and we have to leave it at that.

From my perspective I can maybe agree that taking into account every possible person who has ever thrown a dice with an AoS mini as a "player", then some relevant percentage of these players don't play with matched play rules. But, if instead we focus on the number of games being played, based on my experience, I am firmly in the camp that the vast majority of games is played on the basis of matched play rules (with or without some tinkering)

[Hollow]

7 hours ago, Marcvs said:

So, basically, our anecdotal experience disagrees and we have to leave it at that.

 I am firmly in the camp that the vast majority of games is played on the basis of matched play rules (with or without some tinkering)

Yeah, opposite experiences and views. I am firmly in the camp that the vast majority of games are played in casual environments using a mixture of PL, points, narratives, proxies and house rules. 

12 hours ago, Grimrock said:

For you having models rotated out isn't a big deal, your friends don't care if you're using Lorenzo Lupo in a City of Sigmar army or any other kit from 20 years ago for that matter

Funnily enough, I have never had any problems (At FLGS, Warhammer stores, Game clubs, or even tournaments) using conversions or well-thought-out and easily identifiable proxies. This is using matched play rules against people I have never met.

What kind of person would go to a store, meet someone who goes through their list and models, all of which are nicely painted, based, and easily identifiable, and say "No way, put those in the bin, I refuse to play against anything that isn't the exact current model!"

Perhaps I am lucky? I've just never encountered people like that IRL. (Out of thousands over the years) I only encounter this thought process online. 

[Grimrock]

4 hours ago, Hollow said:

Funnily enough, I have never had any problems (At FLGS, Warhammer stores, Game clubs, or even tournaments) using conversions or well-thought-out and easily identifiable proxies. This is using matched play rules against people I have never met.

What kind of person would go to a store, meet someone who goes through their list and models, all of which are nicely painted, based, and easily identifiable, and say "No way, put those in the bin, I refuse to play against anything that isn't the exact current model!"

Perhaps I am lucky? I've just never encountered people like that IRL. (Out of thousands over the years) I only encounter this thought process online. 

I was thinking about this last night and trying to figure out my stance on it. I don't think I would ever tell an opponent they couldn't use old models or proxy or whatever. Certainly I haven't said 'no' yet. If someone has cool models they like and painted or a list they want to try out before they sink their money into it who am I to refuse? Plus honestly I'm usually just happy to get a game in for once. I think my restrictions with models are mostly self imposed. Apart from a conversion or two, I don't want to confuse my opponent with too much or have to spend a bunch of time saying 'this model is that, that model is this etc.' and then have to repeat it 10 more times throughout the game. The pre-game dialogue is long enough already trying to make sure they aren't going to be caught in any gotchas or rule interactions they haven't seen before. If I was playing against a buddy that had seen my army before then sure, it's easy enough. But against a stranger it feels hard enough just trying to get going without the extra preamble. 

I would definitely hesitate on house rules because the lack of familiarity with the opponent. Like if I played with a person for a while and I kept winning and it feels like there's not much my opponent could do then I'd be happy enough to tweak something to make it more balanced, but if it's a first or second time then house rules don't really make any sense. I don't know how good a player they are and they don't know how good I am. Tweaks and changes could be entirely unnecessary and skew the game too far one way or the other. Legends rules are similar, I have no idea what the balance is going to be. If I can look over the rules and get a decent feel for them quickly then sure, but again that just adds to that pregame preamble.

So I guess it just comes down to that invisible social contract when I go to play a game. Trying to make it a fun experience for my opponent and not bogging it down too much. That can change easily depending on familiarity but when you're going in blind it becomes much trickier. 

[Hollow]

Well, I'm not going to introduce or play with House Rules when I am not playing in my House (or in somebody else's) I have played in plenty of clubs and groups over the years that have generic house rules like (No Special Characters) I don't really understand what you are discussing with your opponent beforehand that is taking so much time? I just bring a few copies of my army list, with short descriptions of the units (and their main abilities) which I hand to my opponent before we play. They might have a couple of questions but that takes all of 2 minutes. 

When I'm talking about proxies, it has to be in good faith (I always try to play in good faith, I don't do Gotcha nonsense or try to break the game with silly combos or by interpreting rules in a bad-faith manner) I am there to have fun, not try and stomp an opponent, perfectly happy to lose if the game is fun.  The models should make sense as the thing they are. (I'm not putting down an ashtray and calling it a tank) But I would happily field some fantasy High Elf models (correctly based and nicely painted) as some Lumineth for example. 

Edited July 23, 2023 by Hollow