The "mortals redesign" Discussion

[Gitzdee]

I actually meant if they could return in the mortal realms lore in some way shape or form. Models arent really an issue with all the 3d printing going on.

[Baron Klatz]

Ah, they could probably get an expy like the ice kingdoms in the colder sub-realms of Chamon or the oriental mountain-top cities, that were built to escape the Age of Chaos below, the Kharadron do aerial trades with for tapestries made entirely from crushed precious minerals but obviously they wouldn’t be one-to-ones as the World-that-was and Mortal Realms have entirely different origins of creation.(see what happened to the Lumineth)

Like you can’t get bear Russia in a place where the bears are clockwork and lands giant turning gears nor a dragon empire with just human subjects when we have the Draconith empire that shows they can build empires with dragons alone.(not canonically one-to-one anyway, that’s what fan creations are for)

Edited July 21, 2022 by Baron Klatz

[Twisted Firaun]

7 hours ago, Baron Klatz said:

Ah, they could probably get an expy like the ice kingdoms in the colder sub-realms of Chamon or the oriental mountain-top cities, that were built to escape the Age of Chaos below, the Kharadron do aerial trades with for tapestries made entirely from crushed precious minerals but obviously they wouldn’t be one-to-ones as the World-that-was and Mortal Realms have entirely different origins of creation.(see what happened to the Lumineth)

 

I really want to see more of the monastery guys, mostly because of the idea of a Daemon deciding to become neutral/good "deity" is such a strange concept even by Warhammer's standards. Plus, a Buddhism-expy is strangely absent from Warhammer Lore.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

22 hours ago, Loyal Son of Khemri said:

Odds are the various "mortal" armies will be cross-playable in some form or the other, and if not there's the wonderful world of kit-bashing and "count as" kits. Odds are my preferred armies won't be playable, Nagash squatted us harder than the Squats and I doubt the Vampire Coast will get many models (much less a whole army) if any, but I don't doubt that the vast majority of "Chaos" and "Mortal" armies will get some sort of pass in the coming game.

We probably won't see Tomb Kings in AoS anytime soon (although I would not be surprised if they got reintroduced to the setting at some point), but if models from The Old World get AoS warscrolls at all, there is really no reason most Tomb Kings stuff couldn't just be Deathrattle units for Gravelords.

[CommissarRotke]

3 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

We probably won't see Tomb Kings in AoS anytime soon (although I would not be surprised if they got reintroduced to the setting at some point), but if models from The Old World get AoS warscrolls at all, there is really no reason most Tomb Kings stuff couldn't just be Deathrattle units for Gravelords.

hot take: if GW wants to use the Egyptian aesthetic again, it should be for living, breathing humans that fit in right alongside the other mortals living in Cities.

[Baron Klatz]

Pictured, Reddit and Twitter fighting over if the Belakor Legionnaires are supposed to be Romans, Japanese or late-medieval armored:

 

Some are really going at it about that like there can be only one influence in a high fantasy setting.

It’s a great thing though, we’ve seen how the Mortal Realms design like to put multiple unrelated cultures in a blender and then spice them up with an elemental specialty.

If the Legionnaires turn of to be chaos-corrupted Hammerhal soldiers(can’t really be Excelsis-based since they have to use steelsilk in place of metal plate as Ghur lacks metals and these guys definitely don’t) then getting a Roman-Euro-Arfrican-Japanese mix would fit swimmingly with the diverse melting pot of Aqshy and be expanded on it’s stuff like the Flame Scions who are essentially gladiator samurais.

On 7/22/2022 at 5:21 AM, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

no reason most Tomb Kings stuff couldn't just be Deathrattle units for Gravelords.

I actually recently helped out a guy make a TK character in Soulbound using the Grave Guard archetype.

 

When you add-in that Wight Kings can be affected by their realm like Aqshy Wights being conquest focused and bloodthirsty while Hyshians are philosophical tacticians it adds more variety to the Deathrattle “tomb” kingdoms you can have your skeleton warrior come from as they march pass ivory citizens silently chopping trees and chucking pale cornfields of finger-bone stems and teeth kernels to expand their fiefdom.

 

Also there’s a stellar Deathrattle name generator I found for him:

https://www.realmofplastic.com/hobby-blog/character-name-generator-deathrattle-wights
 

[CommissarRotke]

We got another look at possible redo with the "Monster" article. Anyone watching H&B? Cogfort looks amazing, soldiers look a bit plain.

Quote

In Monsters we’re treated to a vision of the armies of Sigmar like we’ve never seen before – feast your eyes on this gorgeous cog fort! Want to see the rest? Well, you’ll just have to watch the full animation

 

[Snorri Nelriksson]

Not a great change though....still 15th\16th century Europe inspired.
Probably we will see more Spain\Netherlands\Italy etc. influences(and still were under Habsburg empire so the difference is not even that much historically speaking) though.
Loving the cogfort....but seems too huge?
Maybe a "lesser version" with a size more in line with the steamtank dimensions though.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Snorri Nelriksson

[CommissarRotke]

I actually thought this Cogfort looked too small LOL--I was expecting different sizes with probably different names for each, so maybe "Cogfort" will be the generic warmachine title and different sizes will get different adjectives?

1 hour ago, Snorri Nelriksson said:

Not a great change though....still 15th\16th century Europe inspired.

Agreed, I was hoping for something that has different aesthetics blended in than this. 

[Clan's Cynic]

My guess is Cogfort will scale down to the tabletop somewhat even if it looks like the W+ animation, but in lore they'll be closer to that video.

They could also do the same thing as the Kharadron vessels, where there are some variants which are too big for tabletop and are 'off-screen' during the actual battle. 

Edited August 10, 2022 by Clan's Cynic

[Baron Klatz]

Yeah, Cogforts come in multiple sizes depending on what their function is. 
 

Patrol types can be more like medium-sized forts that hold regiments of troops and protect settlements or crawl along the borders marked by the ever-expanding walls of the cities.

Or the massive city-sized Cogforts used to take new ground from enemy forces and expand Order’s border like Old Firesnout that conquered the lands that Anvilgard(and later Har Kuron) would settle)

 

“Cogforts come in all shapes and sizes ranging from forts to small cities that travel on either wheels or piston-powered legs, making them appear like immense mechanical arachnids. They are often heavily armed with a wide variety of weapons such as cannons, fire-throwers and fire-steps for Freeguild soldiers to fire from. A central wall atop the fortress will often be constructed to surround a series of armoured towers. At the heart of these fortresses are the furnaces that power them, some Cogforts even use emberstone furnaces.”

”Cogforts are employed by many Dawnbringer Crusades in their reclamation efforts of the Mortal Realms, serving as mobile fortresses from which the Dawners can organize their forces and campaigns. Other mobile fortresses such as Sentry-Keeps and Border-Walkers are also used.”

(I imagine the animated one will be a Border-Walker similar to the one shown in Soulbound)

“Cogforts patrol the regions outside the walls of the ever-expanding Cities of Sigmar protecting the city perimeter and defending vulnerable settlements outside of the main city. They also bring their firepower against enemies that stand in the way of the expansion of the city's territory. For many Free Cities, particularly Hammerhal Aqsha, Cogforts play a vital role in expanding and securing borders, allowing the influence of Sigmar's bastions to grow

These mobile fortresses are garrisoned by well over a hundred Human and Duardin soldiers, often pulled from the ranks of Freeguilds and the guilds of the Ironweld Arsenal. Occasionally Fyreslayer mercenaries and wizards will be employed alongside the rank-and-file forces.”

That all said I’m skeptical that the animation humans will represent the actual new Freeguild models. GW doesn’t leak designs like that which are a year or more away as competitors and bootleggers can steal them and sell their own models before GW can which cuts into profits.

So I’m saying just well armored placeholder troops for now(certainly better than the old pajama party but can still go further to at least the Kharadron-esque clothes Hexbane has)

I am curious about the armored vehicles the troops on the left and right side are riding that look to be mechanized war wagons. The cranes on them look like Ironweld salvage units that are used as defensive emplacements.

[CDM]

I like the conquistadores look but I'm hoping for something a bit more varied. I like the thought of a regular troop like them taking the role that the Vanari do but would love to see some realm specific elites and units similar to how they're doing it for lumineth.

There has been some amazing artwork and concepts over the years

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

3 hours ago, CommissarRotke said:

We got another look at possible redo with the "Monster" article. Anyone watching H&B? Cogfort looks amazing, soldiers look a bit plain.

 

I'm into this design direction. This somewhat confirms the direction I thought they would want to go into, which is to keep the basic aesthetic of the Freeguild but make it more recognizibly AoS. I don't think this is a bad move. I imagine the "generic european" Freeguild will somewhat be the Cadians of AoS. Call it the traditional Azyrean garb or Hammerhal pattern or whatever. I hope my other prediction comes true, as well, which is that we will also see a bunch of one-off units that represent different cities and realms like the cuotists warbands of Warcry have been for Chaos.

I also like that they are seemingly leaning into the steam powered war machines with the Cogfort. Easily one of the most fun, unique and under-developed aspects of the current Cities range. I could definitely see the Cogfort as a new centerpiece kit. It could go on a 170mm oval like the Mortek Crawler and would probably look like a suitably impressive step up in scale from the Steam Tank.

 

[CommissarRotke]

48 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I hope my other prediction comes true, as well, which is that we will also see a bunch of one-off units that represent different cities and realms like the cuotists warbands of Warcry have been for Chaos.

I am hoping this as well, since it feels like the only true way to make this both "something we've never seen before" and bringing mortal humans fully into AOS. 

1 hour ago, Baron Klatz said:

Patrol types can be more like medium-sized forts that hold regiments of troops and protect settlements or crawl along the borders marked by the ever-expanding walls of the cities.

 

So we might get one that can transport a 10 man squad! Maybe with a dual kit for weapons-only 🙏

[Snorri Nelriksson]

@Neil Arthur HotepI could see them doing some sort of "upgrade kits" for various realms but not city specific units as it would be strange to justify in some manner (just think about the whole thing about color schemes and allegiance,warcry warbands are "tribes" so at least makes "senses").


TBH i also hope they'll add some new units to the cities as whole to differentiate from the old world.
Mixed races regiments,new more "realmy\high magic" units, some new realm races auxiliaries and so on.

[Draznak]

5 hours ago, Baron Klatz said:

That all said I’m skeptical that the animation humans will represent the actual new Freeguild models. GW doesn’t leak designs like that which are a year or more away as competitors and bootleggers can steal them and sell their own models before GW can which cuts into profits.

So I’m saying just well armored placeholder troops for now(certainly better than the old pajama party but can still go further to at least the Kharadron-esque clothes Hexbane has)

I also hope this doesn't announce the definitive style of the new freeguilds.

Personally, I don't like the conquistador style at all and it has nothing to do with the AOS atmosphere in my eyes. If so, that would be a huge disappointment for me.

 

I'm still crossing my fingers for a WHB Empire style/ AoS mix that sounds really unique. AoS really needs it !

Nevertheless the concept of the cogfort is excellent: great potential for a centerpiece model indeed.

[Greyshadow]

I actually hope they go with one aesthetic for cities humans. A bit like cadians for 4OK. It might not reflect everything in the lore but I’d rather a cohesive we’ll supported range over a sprawling but sparsely supported one. A more diverse range of alternative models would work best with Warcry. Love what they have done for the Chaos war bands - just fantastic.

Edited August 12, 2022 by Greyshadow

[CommissarRotke]

15 hours ago, Draznak said:

I'm still crossing my fingers for a WHB Empire style/ AoS mix that sounds really unique. AoS really needs it !

 

Thing is, the conquistador look IS the WHB Empire put into the Mortal Realms, which at least personally is why it feels bland to me. While we haven't seen this specific look before, the general aesthetic is still "what if we took historical units and dropped them into fantasy?" except instead of HRE for pseudo-Europe it's conquistadors for the New World Mortal Realms.

I am sure their specialized or realm units are going to look fantastic. I am hoping the generic grunts don't end up as conquistadors with Empire-adjacent imagery.

[Draznak]

1 hour ago, CommissarRotke said:

Thing is, the conquistador look IS the WHB Empire put into the Mortal Realms, which at least personally is why it feels bland to me. While we haven't seen this specific look before, the general aesthetic is still "what if we took historical units and dropped them into fantasy?" except instead of HRE for pseudo-Europe it's conquistadors for the New World Mortal Realms.

You're right to make that distinction (just that personally I much prefer the HRE style to the conquistador).

But in any case, AoS must emancipate itself from the historical references common in WHB. It wouldn't make sense to take out the Old World, partly for that, and put soldiers straight out of the 17th century into AoS.

I really hope that the grimdark they announced will prevail for this new version of Dawnbringers Crusaders. In my eyes, this is perhaps the most important release in AoS's history. I know people who don't stick with the AoS universe because there are no "made in AoS" humans in it. And the game needs sculptures that belong to it. When you think that after 7 years of existence, the miniatures, sculpted and released since the launch of AoS only represent 56% of the complete AoS range (I don't count Warcry or Underworlds in it). This is not normal and clearly not enough.

[CommissarRotke]

You know the more I think about it, the more I'm realizing the conquistador look was probably the easiest/simplest way (in GW's mind) to 'upgrade' the old look to fit with the high fantasy of AOS. That aesthetic sort of bridges the gap between medieval HRE and the Napoleonic eras.

I'm thinking GW broke it down into a few key points:
-more armored than WHF to deal with the more dangerous Mortal Realms
-fits in with magitech, steamtech, and other high fantasy designs
-recognizable historical pastiche

Now they really need to start posting more design info so we can hear about their process...

[Baron Klatz]

Plus Conquistadors can have face masks which fits in seamlessly with the Stormcast Seraphim mask impasse.(as we see with the guy in the Hexbane warband)

Goes with the whole People of Heaven Spanish/Latin theme Stormcasts go all in down to their bear traps and matches other works like Blasphemous and Dark Souls.

Blasphemous makes me hope one day we get those storm cherubs that show up in the Stormcast art. Flying support unit that can’t attack but buffs Stormcasts and explodes harder than Thunderstrikes to punish those that’d kill the innocent.

(fan art here but I really like it)

 

[Kaleb Daark]

On 8/10/2022 at 6:18 PM, Clan's Cynic said:

My guess is Cogfort will scale down to the tabletop somewhat even if it looks like the W+ animation, but in lore they'll be closer to that video.

They could also do the same thing as the Kharadron vessels, where there are some variants which are too big for tabletop and are 'off-screen' during the actual battle. 

Or just redo and update the marienberg landship in plastic, in fact you could probably cobble one together from an arkonaut ship

Edited August 13, 2022 by Kaleb Daark

[Baron Klatz]

8 hours ago, Kaleb Daark said:

Or just redo and update the marienberg landship in plastic, in fact you could probably cobble one together from an arkonaut ship

Cogforts, Sentry-keeps and Border-walkers all have giant piston-driven spider legs, not wheels.

A steamtank’s greatest foe alone is unstable ground:

 

The big ponderous landship would defecate screws looking at the average Realmscape the spider legs cross every day.

 

Let the spider tanks reign!

[Snorri Nelriksson]

On 8/12/2022 at 10:45 PM, CommissarRotke said:

You know the more I think about it, the more I'm realizing the conquistador look was probably the easiest/simplest way (in GW's mind) to 'upgrade' the old look to fit with the high fantasy of AOS. That aesthetic sort of bridges the gap between medieval HRE and the Napoleonic eras.

I'm thinking GW broke it down into a few key points:
-more armored than WHF to deal with the more dangerous Mortal Realms
-fits in with magitech, steamtech, and other high fantasy designs
-recognizable historical pastiche

Now they really need to start posting more design info so we can hear about their process...

But Whfb empire was Holy roman empire from 14/16 century already so is not even that different from spain or other european countries.Considering the redesign i could have thought they would have used more medieval inspirations like Bretonnia.

Tbh i like the idea of @Baron Klatz of using some "holy art" inspiration like blasphemous but cities having many gods needs to "give that to every deity in the pantheon"( the use of masks was not present in conquistador/spanish armies,"parade"/noble armors even lacked thoses).

They needs to distinguish the aesthetic from stormcasts,having huge full plated masked soldiers in the army is already their things.Also the grim aspect should be used mostly in Azyrite inquisiton not the church as a whole andother churches like Alarielle or Grungni's should have a different feelings also (i loved Zana Mathos armor made with coins,it gave an interesting design for a Chamonite follower of the Maker).

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by Snorri Nelriksson

[CommissarRotke]

On 8/14/2022 at 5:31 AM, Snorri Nelriksson said:

But Whfb empire was Holy roman empire from 14/16 century already so is not even that different from spain or other european countries.Considering the redesign i could have thought they would have used more medieval inspirations like Bretonnia.

 

Dang I thought they were farther apart  so it's really more of a geographic difference than time...