Using Dispossessed in AoS 3.0

[Skreech Verminking]

On 3/1/2022 at 7:26 AM, zilberfrid said:

GW's ways are inexplicable, but I think they have cut down Disposessed as far as they can before deleting them entirely.

Well Dispossessed are more often seen then fyreslayers, so I guess if we go down, fyreslayers will follow up soon, if not even get cancelled before.

Personally I have I doubts that the dispossessed are getting deleted any time soon.

there is a good chance they’ll survive till the end of the aos area, considering that they are basically coming back with the old world update.

 

[zilberfrid]

8 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Well Dispossessed are more often seen then fyreslayers, so I guess if we go down, fyreslayers will follow up soon, if not even get cancelled before.

Personally I have I doubts that the dispossessed are getting deleted any time soon.

there is a good chance they’ll survive till the end of the aos area, considering that they are basically coming back with the old world update.

I also think they will survive. They even have the majority of a start collecting.

[Lord Krungharr]

Someone wrote somewhere that the Dawnbringer Crusades will give more lasting presence to the Cities of Sigmar armies in general; thus I must agree that Dispossessed will be around for quite a long while.  Plus Dwarves are crucial to any classic fantasy setting!  Just not Chaos Dwarves 🙄

[Skreech Verminking]

24 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Someone wrote somewhere that the Dawnbringer Crusades will give more lasting presence to the Cities of Sigmar armies in general; thus I must agree that Dispossessed will be around for quite a long while.  Plus Dwarves are crucial to any classic fantasy setting!  Just not Chaos Dwarves 🙄

Well……

there has been a lot of talk, lore and then there is total war warhammer three with their not yet announced dlc, so anything is possible😉

[Lord Krungharr]

Yeah, I want Rune Lightning storms, and earthquakes!  See now I need to make a Dwarvish Luminark with a big Grungni head staring at people.

[Lord Krungharr]

Thinking about some Greywater Fastness as an option for the Duardin now (mainly because I got a Steam Tank, and have my eye on another).  It's good for Gyrocopters and Irondrakes and gives Runelords another useful prayer.  

Steam Tank Commander (general, Ghoul-mere Ranger, Steampiston Plate Mail)

Ancestral Runicanum (Ash Cloud spell)

Warden King

Runelord

Runelord

2x10 Ironbreakers

1x20 Irondrakes

1x10 Hammerers

1x10 Longbeards w great weapons

1x2 Gyrocopters

Steam Tank 

Easy to swap out the Commander with a Dwarf.  Yeah humans make stuff but not as high quality as we bearded folk.  Running and shooting near the general kinda helps mitigate their slowness, being able to trot up behind and at least fire some shots.  Reasonably tough units in there too.  Focus fire to eliminate entire enemy units would be key but the Irondrakes with rend-2 shooting twice, and hopefully with Curse gone off, is pretty spicy.  Steam Tanks should be hitting pretty well together with the Runicanum (my Dwarvish Celestial Hurricanum in case you couldn't tell).  Bodies for objectives, Gyros for fast bombs and horde softening or far objective stealing, at least 1 turn of it.  I'll have fun practicing this vs my Bonesplitterz or Beasts of Chaos (whoever wins the match between those 2 in my mini-self-tournament...this is how I decide what to paint next).

[zilberfrid]

On 3/21/2022 at 7:52 PM, Lord Krungharr said:

Someone wrote somewhere that the Dawnbringer Crusades will give more lasting presence to the Cities of Sigmar armies in general; thus I must agree that Dispossessed will be around for quite a long while.  Plus Dwarves are crucial to any classic fantasy setting!  Just not Chaos Dwarves 🙄

It might, but have you seen any non-human Cities model in any of the pictures made for Dawnbringer Crusades?

Plenty of Kharadron and humans, but no Disposessed, Ironweld or Cities elves.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

8 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Thinking about some Greywater Fastness as an option for the Duardin now (mainly because I got a Steam Tank, and have my eye on another).  It's good for Gyrocopters and Irondrakes and gives Runelords another useful prayer.  

Steam Tank Commander (general, Ghoul-mere Ranger, Steampiston Plate Mail)

Ancestral Runicanum (Ash Cloud spell)

Warden King

Runelord

Runelord

2x10 Ironbreakers

1x20 Irondrakes

1x10 Hammerers

1x10 Longbeards w great weapons

1x2 Gyrocopters

Steam Tank 

Easy to swap out the Commander with a Dwarf.  Yeah humans make stuff but not as high quality as we bearded folk.  Running and shooting near the general kinda helps mitigate their slowness, being able to trot up behind and at least fire some shots.  Reasonably tough units in there too.  Focus fire to eliminate entire enemy units would be key but the Irondrakes with rend-2 shooting twice, and hopefully with Curse gone off, is pretty spicy.  Steam Tanks should be hitting pretty well together with the Runicanum (my Dwarvish Celestial Hurricanum in case you couldn't tell).  Bodies for objectives, Gyros for fast bombs and horde softening or far objective stealing, at least 1 turn of it.  I'll have fun practicing this vs my Bonesplitterz or Beasts of Chaos (whoever wins the match between those 2 in my mini-self-tournament...this is how I decide what to paint next).

Personally, I'd say that the Greywater Fastness battle traits are not really that useful anymore. Both the prayer and command are +1 to hit, which is already abundant in Cities. Steam Tanks get it from the commander, Freeguild Handgunners from their warscroll and the Hurricanum exists, as well. Maybe Volley Fire is useful for Irondrakes, but they can just use All-Out Attack instead. The Runelord will have better prayers to use most of the time, now that he's limited to praying only once per hero phase.

The range increase on Ironweld units is probably the best ability the city gets. It's good on Gyrocopters and Steam Tanks. But Steam Tanks want to get in close anyway, so I don't know if this is enough to choose Greywater over any other city. On the plus side, Greywater has pretty good artefacts and command traits, and the spell lore is OK, too. If you want to play rules-as-written, the Steam Tank is not a mount, so you get that movement buff from Steam-Piston Plate Mail.

I think the big thing that counts against Greywater as the city to use in an Ironweld-heavy list is that the Tempest's Eye bonuses are just more overall useful. +1 to wound from Hawk Eyed, extra movement and saves turn 1, run and shoot as a command ability... I think that's overall just better than what Greywater offers.

26 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

It might, but have you seen any non-human Cities model in any of the pictures made for Dawnbringer Crusades?

Plenty of Kharadron and humans, but no Disposessed, Ironweld or Cities elves.

I think it currently looks like the Dawnbringe Crusades will probably focus on the human side of Cities. Which is good, in my opinion, because there is currently no "normal humans" Order faction made specifically for AoS. The old Empire models are kinda embarrassing at this point.

I don't think that means Cities elves and dwarves are likely to be obsoleted, anytime soon, though. I would just expect them to get their updates later than humans. Anyway, it's not like we have a lot of Dawnbringer art right now. I think there are only two art pieces, and on one of them you can't really tell what's going on.

[zilberfrid]

7 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I think it currently looks like the Dawnbringe Crusades will probably focus on the human side of Cities. Which is good, in my opinion, because there is currently no "normal humans" Order faction made specifically for AoS. The old Empire models are kinda embarrassing at this point.

I don't think that means Cities elves and dwarves are likely to be obsoleted, anytime soon, though. I would just expect them to get their updates later than humans. Anyway, it's not like we have a lot of Dawnbringer art right now. I think there are only two art pieces, and on one of them you can't really tell what's going on.

I agree, but in a Disposessed topic, I wouldn't take the Dawnbringer Crusades thing as a sign that they will be reinvigorated with that (future? dream? concept?) thing.

[Lord Krungharr]

6 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Personally, I'd say that the Greywater Fastness battle traits are not really that useful anymore. Both the prayer and command are +1 to hit, which is already abundant in Cities. Steam Tanks get it from the commander, Freeguild Handgunners from their warscroll and the Hurricanum exists, as well. Maybe Volley Fire is useful for Irondrakes, but they can just use All-Out Attack instead. The Runelord will have better prayers to use most of the time, now that he's limited to praying only once per hero phase.

The range increase on Ironweld units is probably the best ability the city gets. It's good on Gyrocopters and Steam Tanks. But Steam Tanks want to get in close anyway, so I don't know if this is enough to choose Greywater over any other city. On the plus side, Greywater has pretty good artefacts and command traits, and the spell lore is OK, too. If you want to play rules-as-written, the Steam Tank is not a mount, so you get that movement buff from Steam-Piston Plate Mail.

I think the big thing that counts against Greywater as the city to use in an Ironweld-heavy list is that the Tempest's Eye bonuses are just more overall useful. +1 to wound from Hawk Eyed, extra movement and saves turn 1, run and shoot as a command ability... I think that's overall just better than what Greywater offers.

 

Excellent points.  I do like having a +1 to hit prayer so I can save the CP for the Irondrakes, and use it for an All Out Defense or 6" run roll, etc.  Guess if they really need to shred something, and I need the 2 Runelords to do their native prayers I could use the All Out Attack for shooting.

But gotta agree, the Hawkeyed CT in Tempests Eye is super good.  Think I'll get the other steam tank if I can and have an armored company....it'll be like when I had Imperial Guard with Squats way back in 40k

[AlmGandix3]

I saw a video about greywater and the pro player explained, that the city can go without the hurricanum due to the multiple +1 to hit sources. This lets you use the points elsewhere.

[Lord Krungharr]

Greywater certainly has its appeal but I lack the speed to get anywhere.  That's why I rather prefer Living City for the option to outflank some slower unit, plus move 1 after shooting if applicable.  I hope the new GHB lowers our points some, they really are a bit overcosted.   Probably won't happen.

I used Living City with Dwarves (and a Hurricanum, Durthu, Treelord Ancient, and Treelord) this weekend vs a very weird Slaves to Darkness army (3 Khorne Princes, 4 Chariots, 2 Fomoroids, 2 Mindstealer Cats, Soul Grinder, Cockatrice, Bloodsecrator)....Feral Foray mission. 

I found the Hurricanum to not be super effective, though to be fair, when 3 Daemon Princes hit your lines and all strike first, hard to even get to the point of hitting much less enjoying +1 to hit.  I think with more shooty armies it's probably better at saving CPs.  Maybe with more Irondrakes it would be worth it?  I outflanked the Irondrakes, which is totally NOT what to do with them.  They could have Unleashed Hell on a Daemon Prince and erased it probably.

Gyrocopters were highly effective at sneaking around to get Savage Spearhead and then Conquer in the enemy zone.  They caused 0 damage to anything, and didn't even bother as they used their speed with run to get places.  I'm thinking this is the best use of them...and if there is a pesky horde, then they can participate more close up.  

Problem with taking Hammerers and Irondrakes as battleline is having a Dispossessed general, which means the Warden King, and he's just not very durable but needs to be central for his great effects.  So that means pretty much always taking Ironbreakers and/or Longbeards, rather than just Irondrakes as battleline.  Hmmm.  

Hammerers killed a Cockatrice very handily but that's all.   Kinda wish there was a Steam Tank Transport;  It could be like a Land Raider in 40k!

It was a close game though until Turn 5, ended up at 20-15 I think, with Chaos only winning bottom of turn 5 from being able to get their own Savage Spearhead and getting the final objective points.  City only had 1 Gyrocopter left. 

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

14 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Hammerers killed a Cockatrice very handily but that's all.   Kinda wish there was a Steam Tank Transport;  It could be like a Land Raider in 40k!

I really want that, too. It would immediately make a lot of units a lot more viable. Like, you could put a foot hero general and his wise council into it to keep them protected. You could transport the slower melee and shooting units up. You could even just slap a Cogsmith in there to help him keep up with and heal other war machines.

[Marcvs]

17 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Problem with taking Hammerers and Irondrakes as battleline is having a Dispossessed general, which means the Warden King, and he's just not very durable but needs to be central for his great effects.  So that means pretty much always taking Ironbreakers and/or Longbeards, rather than just Irondrakes as battleline.  Hmmm.

 

you could make a runelord the general, and if you're afraid of them getting sniped, the deepmire cloak in living city is a cool anti-shooting tech (as long as you play on boards with enough terrain)

[Lord Krungharr]

I think with a Treelord Ancient plopping a forest, and then hopefully casting the Verdant Blessing for another, that would aid a Deepmire Cloaked general to moving forth to help his troops, and stay alive to do it.  Wish it just blocked LOS to him for units over 3" away or something though, then it would preven spells and other MW effects from sniping him.

[readercolin]

2 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I think with a Treelord Ancient plopping a forest, and then hopefully casting the Verdant Blessing for another, that would aid a Deepmire Cloaked general to moving forth to help his troops, and stay alive to do it.  Wish it just blocked LOS to him for units over 3" away or something though, then it would preven spells and other MW effects from sniping him.

Keep in mind that Verdant Blessing is a spell from the Sylvaneth battletome, not something that is a warscroll spell (unlike what GW's app says...), so bringing a treelord gives you 1 forest and that's it.

[Jaskier]

5 hours ago, readercolin said:

Keep in mind that Verdant Blessing is a spell from the Sylvaneth battletome, not something that is a warscroll spell (unlike what GW's app says...), so bringing a treelord gives you 1 forest and that's it.

Just to add to this, I've seen a bunch of Living City lists - ones going 4-1 or better at tournaments - on aosshorts that feature Branchwraiths with no accompanying Treelord Ancient, and presumably they've been using Verdant Blessing to then summon Dryads (as why else would you run a Branchwraith in Living City over any of the other wizard options.) This obviously shows even tournaments are getting this particular rule wrong, likely because of the app listing Verdant Blessing on warscrolls.

Just in case anyone is wondering and to back up @readercolin, the unofficial communication from GW is that Verdant Blessing is in the allegiance section of the book and thus is assumed to be part of the rules a Sylvaneth army gets for being a Sylvaneth army. Basically, it follows the 'old' way of how allegiance abilities are doled out, ergo if anyone tries to cast it outside of Sylvaneth allegiance, they are (almost definitely unintentionally) playing the rules wrong. 

Just wanted to comment as I brought this up in my circles recently and that's the answer I got from someone who repeated what the AoS rules team told them. From what I understand, the AoS team think it's clear enough that it doesn't need addressing; obviously it isn't so clear, but they've got a new book just around the corner anyway so it probably will remain unaddressed officially.

[Marcvs]

4 hours ago, Jaskier said:

Just to add to this, I've seen a bunch of Living City lists - ones going 4-1 or better at tournaments - on aosshorts that feature Branchwraiths with no accompanying Treelord Ancient, and presumably they've been using Verdant Blessing to then summon Dryads (as why else would you run a Branchwraith in Living City over any of the other wizard options.) This obviously shows even tournaments are getting this particular rule wrong, likely because of the app listing Verdant Blessing on warscrolls.

Just in case anyone is wondering and to back up @readercolin, the unofficial communication from GW is that Verdant Blessing is in the allegiance section of the book and thus is assumed to be part of the rules a Sylvaneth army gets for being a Sylvaneth army. Basically, it follows the 'old' way of how allegiance abilities are doled out, ergo if anyone tries to cast it outside of Sylvaneth allegiance, they are (almost definitely unintentionally) playing the rules wrong. 

Just wanted to comment as I brought this up in my circles recently and that's the answer I got from someone who repeated what the AoS rules team told them. From what I understand, the AoS team think it's clear enough that it doesn't need addressing; obviously it isn't so clear, but they've got a new book just around the corner anyway so it probably will remain unaddressed officially.

concerning your question why would you run the Branchwraith: the lists you are referring to use the Branchwraith simply because it's th cheapest wizard you can buy (and generally a very cheap hero that you can ambush to activate strike and melt away).

[Jaskier]

3 hours ago, Marcvs said:

concerning your question why would you run the Branchwraith: the lists you are referring to use the Branchwraith simply because it's th cheapest wizard you can buy (and generally a very cheap hero that you can ambush to activate strike and melt away).

If that's the case then fair enough, but I also find that a bit odd as the Branchwych is 5 points cheaper and at the very least has a warscroll spell and special rules that are at least usable in Living City in contrast to the Branchwraith - who incidentally costs as many points as a Sorceress who is clearly the better choice in Living City (if not running a Treelord Ancient at least.) That's why it really seemed like they were using it for that reason outlined above, but again, that was just my assumption.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Jaskier

[Marcvs]

1 hour ago, Jaskier said:

If that's the case then fair enough, but I also find that a bit odd as the Branchwych is 5 points cheaper and at the very least has a warscroll spell and special rules that are at least usable in Living City in contrast to the Branchwraith - who incidentally costs as many points as a Sorceress who is clearly the better choice in Living City (if not running a Treelord Ancient at least.) That's why it really seemed like they were using it for that reason outlined above, but again, that was just my assumption.

Agree on both points, I was just repeating the explanation I heard in a list analysis (and I was also confusing the two Branch- myself)

[Lord Krungharr]

But Verdant Blessing is on the Treelord Ancient warscroll in the app....is that not rules-legal to use?

[Jaskier]

14 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

But Verdant Blessing is on the Treelord Ancient warscroll in the app....is that not rules-legal to use?

Strictly speaking, not unless it's being used in a Sylvaneth army, at least according to people who've raised the issue with the GW rules team. 

Basically, Verdant Blessing is assumed to be part of the Sylvaneth allegiance rules, meaning only Sylvaneth armies get to use it. The app listing it on each Sylvaneth warscroll is likely just because it isn't technically part of the Sylvaneth spell lore but it is known by all Sylvaneth wizards in a Sylvaneth army - i.e. it's listed on the warscrolls for convenience's sake. 

[Lord Krungharr]

12 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

Strictly speaking, not unless it's being used in a Sylvaneth army, at least according to people who've raised the issue with the GW rules team. 

Basically, Verdant Blessing is assumed to be part of the Sylvaneth allegiance rules, meaning only Sylvaneth armies get to use it. The app listing it on each Sylvaneth warscroll is likely just because it isn't technically part of the Sylvaneth spell lore but it is known by all Sylvaneth wizards in a Sylvaneth army - i.e. it's listed on the warscrolls for convenience's sake. 

Hmmm, I'll have to check the FAQs and such.  Was possibly using it at an event in July but not sure how the TO would rule on it.  I'd need less Wyldwoods then....

[Jaskier]

12 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Hmmm, I'll have to check the FAQs and such.  Was possibly using it at an event in July but not sure how the TO would rule on it.  I'd need less Wyldwoods then....

It's specifically not in the FAQs because, to loosely quote the liason (I don't want to name names but it's a very public and very well known figure in the AoS community who has frequent direct contact with the AoS team) in question, "the team think it's obvious enough to not require an FAQ." You need to look at the battletome itself; Verdant Blessing is in the allegiance section alongside the spell lore, artifacts, command traits, etc - it is part of the allegiance 'set' and thus exclusive to Sylvaneth armies. This is how the pre-3.0 battletomes have traditionally worked, hence why the rules team don't see the need to clarify it. There's never been any confusion about this until the new app came out and added Verdant Blessing to each of the warscrolls, but that alone does not trump the actual battletome itself - again, you can assume it's either for convenience or an erroneous addition. 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Jaskier

[Lord Krungharr]

So to clarify, in the Sylvaneth tome the Verdant Blessing is NOT on the Treelord Ancient Warscroll?