AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Boggler]

8 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

This is good data, thank you. It's unfortunate you didn't win any, but seeing what happens when the dice are not in our favor is really important.

Game one. No practice games. It was clear that I was piloting something new. The battleplan was Survival of the Fittest.

Here are three ways GW words their things. Can you tell me what the correct sequence is?

TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN

After armies have been set up, before determining who has the first turn in the first battle round, each player must pick 3 different friendly units on the battlefield, starting with the attacker. These units are your predator units for the battle.

Vanishing Phantasms

The Nighthaunt appear and disappear from sight to torment their prey.

At the end of deployment, before determining control of objectives, you can remove up to 3 friendly NIGHTHAUNT units from the battlefield and place them to one side to be set up in ambush as reserve units.

 

Nurgle: Drowned Men

Lords of Sea and Sky: The skies above the Plague Fleets of the Drowned Men are darkened by a pestilent cloud of Pusgoyle Blightlords.

 

After deployment but before the first battle round begins, you can move each friendly DROWNED MEN LORD OF AFFLICTIONS and PUSGOYLE BLIGHTLORDS unit up to 8". If both players can move units before the first battle round begins, they must roll off and the winner chooses who moves their units first.

 

It was ruled that Vanishing Phantasms happens before you choose your Top of the Food Chain, but I still have no clue where you find proof of this sequencing.

Anyways, this battleplan vs Kruleboys was nasty. The three objectives lined across the middle meant that I was always going to have something in range of his MSU Boltboys and closing the distance was going to take multiple turns, and thus multiple turns of shooting.

In this game I vowed never to forget Olynder's 12" command ability shutdown. Its a 5+ sure, buts its a reason why she'll be an auto-include in almost every list. She is just too good and her 4++ works every time, 50% of the time... She died to an Unleash Hell... I didn't even remember her shutdown but now I'll never forget!

The SH's will go into units of 3. Arcane Tome is probably auto include as well.

Master of Magic on the GoS will be seen a lot. Ruler of the SH for those who like to gamble, or run a couple big blocks of 20. MoM did let me re-roll a miscast so that was good. Consistency might be better.

Lightshard or Beacon are strong second artefacts. A lot of people go for the weapons on a KoS variant but I'm not going to experiment with that for a few more months.

I have another 3 game tournament in July and then another in September so I'm basically on the sidelines doing nothing until those games. The GHB2022 will change a lot and we'll see what the state of things are when it comes.

Until then, NH is not in a bad spot. It's just piloted very differently. With a few playstyles that'll win games. Lots of tools, but expensive to specialize and when you don't know your matchups you can easily waste points.

 

[Liquidsteel]

It seems to have been ruled correctly.

Vanishing happens at the END of Deployment, whereas Predator units are selected AFTER.

In the same way Vanishing can be used to avoid the Emerald Curse from the Emerald Host.

It seems to have both positives and negatives happening when it does; it also means you would fail to control home objectives if you have nothing on them after sticking stuff in reserve.

[Gitzdee]

I am wondering how good the Emerald Host really is vs the Scarlet Doom.

Emerald Host: What units do u pick for at the beginning? Something u want to kill first or second turn anyway? a Monster? It is kind of like a dot/poison status in most games. Does damage at the end of the turn. Has no impact first turn. Does nothing after the target is dead. It should kill something if not countered by healing. Cant change target, not flexible.

Scarlet Doom: Unit dependent. At how many units of Bladegheist Revenants is this worth it? I think MSU is the way to go here.  Seems like a good effect to have on a not so high priority target in an army that want to charge, retreat and charge again. More flexible and has an immediate impact on the game, target doesnt have to be the charged target. Bladegheist Revenants battleline.

Seems to me like the Emerald Host is a more stable low damage choice vs high risk high reward with the Scarlet Doom. What do u think? Am i missing something here?
 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Iksdee

[Rors]

I'm starting to think the curse is a bit of a trap on characters because they'll usually heal it back. It's still a hero action they're burning and if they have multiple heros with 4-5 wounds it puts a clock on them somewhat.
 

However you get bonus damage against monsters. It's unlikely to ever kill one but bracketing them earlier drops their out put and makes it easier to pick them off. Those small units that sit in the back lines are also a good target. Chipping wounds off means they might die before they can do a turn 5 objective steal and it also helps you get rid of stuff that's screening you out from deepstrike.

I think the best case use is probably Morathi. She can't heal and taking D3+1 each battle round means you can somewhat ignore her.

 

[Neck-Romantic]

I view EH vs SD as a tactical choice.

SD basically amounts to impact hits on the charge, and helps you kill targets you need to shock down in one round. Its front loading your subfaction damage in bursts. We are already very VERY much concentrated on doing damage in our own charge phases, and you need to use this bonus damage where it matters most. We are already designed to basically win or lose in the charge phase thru debuffs and morale attrition, doing extra on the charge is hyperfocusing on this.

EH focuses your subfaction boost outside of the charge phase, and outside of positioning. It activates regardless of your and your opponents skill at screens, positioning, and combat. Best used for chip damage on targets you arent confident you can reach, shock dead in one go, or otherwise cannot handle and need softening.

Honestly I wish there had been a defensive subfaction choice, like restores d3 wounds of models for d3 units per turn, or reroll armor saves, lowering the WoT -1 to hit threshhold or awarding -1 to hit in addition to other WoT procs, or something, as we are already extremely dependant on our own charge phase.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Neck-Romantic

[Evil Bob]

12 hours ago, Iksdee said:

I am wondering how good the Emerald Host really is vs the Scarlet Doom.

Snip

In supplement to the gameplay talk above there is the MathHammer component as well. In long running statistics you are looking to get four mortals every turn from Bladegheist Revenants charges to cleanly beat out Emerald Host, so basically twelve dice/models. So if magically sixty Bladegheist Revenants can charge turn one then Scarlet Doom is the overwhelming statistical winner.

Personally I like dropping Emerald Host on obnoxious targets (garrisoned Duradrin, backfield support, etc) and let it whittle down the unit while firepower is focused elsewhere. That or infantry with an impressive Attacks output. With Scarlet Doom I kinda WANT to proxy my Grimghasts Reapers as Bladegheist Revenants (with two or three Spirit Torments) against an all big-Giants army to see how it turns out.

Aside if anyone ever feels either Procession is letting them down these are using 1/3rd probabilities or 1d3s. They are a welcomed bonus but I try not to lean on them any more than Hexwraith charges or Orlynder’s veil.

[Vastus]

On another note, I was thinking a bit about the Midnight Tome and potential Endless Spells. Terminexus seems like the obvious choice because it does decent damage, but with a casting value of 6 it's likely to be dispelled on your opponent's turn.

Geminids is one that popped into my mind as being potentially very valuable. Since we can guarantee it going off with Midnight, you are very likely able to stop your opponent from Redeploying a key target away from your charges, which could cause you to miss a Battle Tactic for example. It's also great against shooting lists of course, since it shuts down Unleash Hell. Also, with two models it can take up a decent amount of space.

The other I considered was the Purple Sun. It kind of does the same thing as Terminexus without the healing flexibility (which doesn't res, so isn't all that great tbh). It's a bit riskier, but with a casting value of 8, it's actually kind of tough to remove, allowing you to continue generating value.

I really like the idea of Geminids honestly, but I've no experience with it yet.

Any thoughts?

Edited June 7, 2022 by Vastus

[EnixLHQ]

14 hours ago, Iksdee said:

I am wondering how good the Emerald Host really is vs the Scarlet Doom.

Emerald Host: What units do u pick for at the beginning? Something u want to kill first or second turn anyway? a Monster? It is kind of like a dot/poison status in most games. Does damage at the end of the turn. Has no impact first turn. Does nothing after the target is dead. It should kill something if not countered by healing. Cant change target, not flexible.

Scarlet Doom: Unit dependent. At how many units of Bladegheist Revenants is this worth it? I think MSU is the way to go here.  Seems like a good effect to have on a not so high priority target in an army that want to charge, retreat and charge again. More flexible and has an immediate impact on the game, target doesnt have to be the charged target. Bladegheist Revenants battleline.

Seems to me like the Emerald Host is a more stable low damage choice vs high risk high reward with the Scarlet Doom. What do u think? Am i missing something here?
 

 

2 hours ago, Neck-Romantic said:

I view EH vs SD as a tactical choice.

SD basically amounts to impact hits on the charge, and helps you kill targets you need to shock down in one round. Its front loading your subfaction damage in bursts. We are already very VERY much concentrated on doing damage in our own charge phases, and you need to use this bonus damage where it matters most. We are already designed to basically win or lose in the charge phase thru debuffs and morale attrition, doing extra on the charge is hyperfocusing on this.

EH focuses your subfaction boost outside of the charge phase, and outside of positioning. It activates regardless of your and your opponents skill at screens, positioning, and combat. Best used for chip damage on targets you arent confident you can reach, shock dead in one go, or otherwise cannot handle and need softening.

Honestly I wish there had been a defensive subfaction choice, like restores d3 wounds of models for d3 units per turn, or reroll armor saves, lowering the WoT -1 to hit threshhold or awarding -1 to hit in addition to other WoT procs, or something, as we are already extremely dependant on our own charge phase.

 

1 hour ago, Evil Bob said:

In supplement to the gameplay talk above there is the MathHammer component as well. In long running statistics you are looking to get four mortals every turn from Bladegheist Revenants charges to cleanly beat out Emerald Host, so basically twelve dice/models. So if magically sixty Bladegheist Revenants can charge turn one then Scarlet Doom is the overwhelming statistical winner.

Personally I like dropping Emerald Host on obnoxious targets (garrisoned Duradrin, backfield support, etc) and let it whittle down the unit while firepower is focused elsewhere. That or infantry with an impressive Attacks output. With Scarlet Doom I kinda WANT to proxy my Grimghasts Reapers as Bladegheist Revenants (with two or three Spirit Torments) against an all big-Giants army to see how it turns out.

Aside if anyone ever feels either Procession is letting them down these are using 1/3rd probabilities or 1d3s. They are a welcomed bonus but I try not to lean on them any more than Hexwraith charges or Orlynder’s veil.

Emerald Host is also an excellent way to deal with enemy ranged units.

[Dogmantra]

1 hour ago, Vastus said:

On another note, I was thinking a bit about the Midnight Tome and potential Endless Spells.

Any thoughts?

Midnight Tome has also caught my eye due to the potential for Shenanigans. A guaranteed endless spell seems like there should be endless possibilities.

My immediate thought on first reading the book was that it would combo nicely in a Nagash list to ensure you get Umbral Spellportal out. That doesn't feel like huge value though, since you're already bringing Nagash with his +silly to cast, and do you really need another wizard if you have Nagash, and if you do need another wizard, do you want to be giving up your one spell cast for it just for the niche case of facing e.g. a Knight Incantor who can Just Say No to a 15 casting roll if they really want to?

Geminids does seem like a fun idea. Turning off Unleash Hell seems pretty high value against shooting armies.

Purple Sun is a good idea if you can get close enough to drop it on the enemy so you don't have to worry too much about it going wild.

I'd also like to try Soulsnare Shackles since shutting down enemy charges on their turn would really bypass a major weakness of Nighthaunt which is just not being very impressive on the opponent's turn, but it would require some good positioning and does run the risk of just getting dispelled before it does anything.

Overall although there are chances for a lot of Shenanigans I feel like probably one of the best uses for this artefact will just be to autocast Emerald Lifeswarm. 2d3 bladegheists or harridans back guaranteed, or even just 2d3 healing on your big heroes seems really valuable.

 

[pikachoux]

What do you think of awlrach and how can we use him? Its a nice model thats why I bought him. I just hope he can be useful.

[lare2]

5 hours ago, pikachoux said:

What do you think of awlrach and how can we use him? Its a nice model thats why I bought him. I just hope he can be useful.

I never really look at him too much as I don't own the model but he's highly regarded and his teleporting ability is nuts good. I'm sure he'd slot nicely into a lot of lists 

[Evil Bob]

9 hours ago, pikachoux said:

What do you think of awlrach and how can we use him? Its a nice model thats why I bought him. I just hope he can be useful.

Depends how you play. While the entire Nighthaunt army is pretty mobile some units do it better in a variety of ways.  Having one source of redeploy is generally a good thing so a Dreadblade Harrow, or Black Coach, or Awlrach the Drowner can be useful even just as a threat to swipe or presser objectives.  Personally I would not recommend going all-in on this sort of thing since it normally removes a unit(s) to be removed from combat for two or three turns which can decide the game. My preference is to keep this sort of thing as an option to fall back on if necessary while trying not to weaken the tradition combat formation.

I’m uncertain if Awlrach is worth the points as a fighter. It would have been really nice if he moved as fast as Hexwraiths. So he’s sort of stuck in an odd space of not enough damage, not enough movement, but has good movement and OK damage. Awlrach’s table foot-print is not that bad so he can work inside complicated maneuvers.  If the unit teleporting with him didn’t require The Drowner to issue the command and there wasn’t a command bubble limit I’d be more interested.

In short he’s OK and has potential if it is planned for and opportunity happens.  He is not an auto include and probably won’t be wrecking face but might if your dice are hot. He does dish damage better than most Nighthaunt characters.  Mine will see table use because playing a different list every game is more fun. Currently he is in eight pieces for sub-assembly-painting. This is a complicated model that pushes against Auto-CAD hell really well. But unlike others this one came out near perfect.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Evil Bob
There is no “t” in “my”

[dmorley21]

On 6/7/2022 at 3:31 AM, Iksdee said:

I am wondering how good the Emerald Host really is vs the Scarlet Doom.

Emerald Host: What units do u pick for at the beginning? Something u want to kill first or second turn anyway? a Monster? It is kind of like a dot/poison status in most games. Does damage at the end of the turn. Has no impact first turn. Does nothing after the target is dead. It should kill something if not countered by healing. Cant change target, not flexible.

Scarlet Doom: Unit dependent. At how many units of Bladegheist Revenants is this worth it? I think MSU is the way to go here.  Seems like a good effect to have on a not so high priority target in an army that want to charge, retreat and charge again. More flexible and has an immediate impact on the game, target doesnt have to be the charged target. Bladegheist Revenants battleline.

Seems to me like the Emerald Host is a more stable low damage choice vs high risk high reward with the Scarlet Doom. What do u think? Am i missing something here?
 

I view them as playing very differently honestly. Emerald Host allows you to take any list, and apply pressure as needed based on deployment. I ran it this past weekend due to the list I was running, without thinking it was worthwhile. Ended up being pretty good. 

My targets really differentiated during the games. 

I chose some big monsters in the first game against Beastclaw Raiders, and it helped chip on them so that I could more easily bring a few down. Still got wrecked, but that's another story. 

The second game I got four targets, and chose both units of Spirit Hosts and then Olynder and Kurdoss. Worked out really well for me. 

The final game I chose Big Morathi (she's a monster), the bow snakes, and a support hero. Helped me a bit, though still a loss. 

I'm planning to try Scarlet Doom next, and know I won't be able to choose any targets for the impact hits. I'll take what I'm given there. 

I will say I think Emerald Host wants you to bring a couple of other ways of dealing mortal wounds at a distance so that way you can kind of hit critical mass. I brought Olynder, Black Coach, and Terminexus and really hit critical mass in my mirror match where I was just clean wiping opposing ghosts off the table. 

9 hours ago, pikachoux said:

What do you think of awlrach and how can we use him? Its a nice model thats why I bought him. I just hope he can be useful.

Just picked him up with a gift certificate as he was the only interesting NH option the store had in stock. I plan on trying him out in conjunction with running a blob of 30 Reapers or 2 blobs of 20. Being able to teleport an anvil unit seems to be really beneficial. 

 

Side note - I know it was discussed earlier, but @Boggler - how do you do hidden content? Makes including lists a lot more aesthetically pleasing. 

[Gitzdee]

 

*deleted*

Edited June 9, 2022 by Iksdee

[Evil Bob]

1 hour ago, dmorley21 said:

Side note - I know it was discussed earlier, but @Boggler - how do you do hidden content? Makes including lists a lot more aesthetically pleasing. 

On bbc code it is generally [spoiler]CONTENT[/spolier] but this site is different.

Currently look for the “eyeball” on the bottom line of editing options to the right end.

Spoiler

Then you can do this or something else inside the space.

 

[EnixLHQ]

This list, piloted by https://twitter.com/Oregano_Nate, went 24 to 16 against Idoneth Deepkin at the Slambo GT event in Texas. I'm still waiting to see streams uploaded for the other rounds, but Nate ended up placing 9th out of 91 with a 4/1 record!

 

[Boggler]

I wonder what the other pts were. With Spell Portal it'd be 1995. Command Trait?

Also, I like the 9 SH. I didn't like 6's but either 3's or 9's will do fine.

They throw more dice than you realize.

The ST will rez 1+1. Nagash will res lots.

Retreat and charge wherever...

[Neck-Romantic]

Awlrach is great in a fight, has his redeploy shenanigans, and is overall great for how cheap he is relative to other heroes IMHO

I think his 3" range also has some interesting possible shenanigans too

Edited June 9, 2022 by Neck-Romantic

[Gitzdee]

9 hours ago, Evil Bob said:

Depends how you play. While the entire Nighthaunt army is pretty mobile some units do it better in a variety of ways.  Having one source of redeploy is generally a good thing so a Dreadblade Harrow, or Black Coach, or Awlrach the Drowner can be useful even just as a threat to swipe or presser objectives.  Personally I would not recommend going all-in on this sort of thing since it normally removes a unit(s) to be removed from combat for two or three turns which can decide the game. My preference is to keep this sort of thing as an option to fall back on if necessary while trying not to weaken the tradition combat formation.

I’m uncertain if Awlrach is worth the points as a fighter. It would have been really nice if he moved as fast as Hexwraiths. So he’s sort of stuck in an odd space of not enough damage, not enough movement, but has good movement and OK damage. Awlrach’s table foot-print is not that bad so he can work inside complicated maneuvers.  If the unit teleporting with him didn’t require The Drowner to issue the command and there wasn’t a command bubble limit I’d be more interested.

In short he’s OK and has potential if it is planned for and opportunity happens.  He is not an auto include and probably won’t be wrecking face but might if your dice are hot. He does dish damage better than most Nighthaunt characters.  Mine will see table use because playing a different list every game is more fun. Currently he is in eight pieces for sub-assembly-painting. This is a complicated model that pushes against Auto-CAD hell really well. But unlike others this one came out near perfect.

Im wondering if taking Awlrach + Spirit Hosts is the way to go. Its not a huge investment and opens up something fun. This only costs a total of 300 points for an extra 9 wounds on Awlrach if u keep teleporting the Spirit Hosts with him and potentially more if u can heal them back up. 16 wounds for 300 points that can teleport all over the place and have a bunch of attacks doesnt seem bad to me. Awlrach can also hit from behind the Spirit Hosts with his 3 inch reach if needed.

If u take more units of Spirit Hosts u could pick one up and drop them on an objective, next turn do the same with a second unit etc. Dont know how good this will be in an actual game though but at least he has the power to delete some stuff if needed.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Iksdee

[Evil Bob]

5 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

This list, piloted by https://twitter.com/Oregano_Nate, went 24 to 16 against Idoneth Deepkin at the Slambo GT event in Texas. I'm still waiting to see streams uploaded for the other rounds, but Nate ended up placing 9th out of 91 with a 4/1 record!

Dam now I really want to know the specifics of the Deepkin fight. Still have Eel Force PTSD from 2nd edition.

Welp guess I’ll have to check out the 2hr+ podcast he’s in…

 

2 hours ago, Iksdee said:

I’m wondering if taking Awlrach + Spirit Hosts is the way to go. Its not a huge investment and opens up something fun.
snip

Rather interesting idea. I’d probably set him and his entourage with the intent of doing regular move-to-combat if it meant getting turn one combat in. He could even share Spirit Host body guards with other heroes. The only thing that would get me to peel him off is if combat options looked bad and a juicy opportunity presented itself. Sending him off early game for an objective doesn’t fit with my style of maximized damage output.

2 hours ago, Iksdee said:

If u take more units of Spirit Hosts u could pick one up and drop them on an objective, next turn do the same with a second unit etc. Dont know how good this will be in an actual game though but at least he has the power to delete some stuff if needed.

From Ferryman of the River Styx’s  to Undead Uber, sick. It is hard to imagine where a bunch of redeploys and giving up our turn charge advantages will win games but we never really know.

I vaguely recall something about Warhammer Weekly suggesting using Awlrach as the general. Bring a Dreadblade Harrow or two and doing a nutty massive redeploy. Or it might have been someplace else, there has been epic ideating ever since the leak happened.

I could totally see throwing a Turn 1 Wall-o-Hexwraiths into the enemy deployment zone boxing them in. Then right outside 9 inches a muder-ball of 30 Grimghast Reapers (or something) and an Awlrach the Drowner at the center. Two Dredblades on either side or sitting on mid-objectives (hard call with the option to grossly copy other even more useful CAs, like making all the Hexwraiths 5+ Ward). Attempt to throw a dance party on the opponent’s table side for as long as possible while gaining VPs.

[Gitzdee]

19 minutes ago, Evil Bob said:

From Ferryman of the River Styx’s  to Undead Uber, sick. It is hard to imagine where a bunch of redeploys and giving up our turn charge advantages will win games but we never really know.

This is also part of the strenght of the Ferryman. Your opponent knows this thing is on the table and kind of has to play around it because he is a really flexible model to have on the battlefield. It doesnt need to do anything to do something. Talking about this thing makes me want to buy one XD.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Iksdee

[Aeryenn]

How do you deal with Giants?

I had a game against them and my army was crushed completely. He went first claiming 3 objectives. In my turn I managed to kill 3 man eaters and did basically nothing to his mega-gargants but do did he to my units. He got first again in the second battle round and destroyed 3 out of 4 of my units (not counting heroes and black coach). Basically each time his gargant attacked it was one unit dead on my side. The game was set. I could do nothing at this point. His gargants were all close to max health.

[Neck-Romantic]

Any of you folks getting games in able to speak to our offensive output?

Does auto wound on 6s to hit make a meaningful impact? Should you aim for more -save WoT even when you have the option for strikes-last due to losing MW output?

Edited June 9, 2022 by Neck-Romantic

[dmorley21]

8 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

This list, piloted by https://twitter.com/Oregano_Nate, went 24 to 16 against Idoneth Deepkin at the Slambo GT event in Texas. I'm still waiting to see streams uploaded for the other rounds, but Nate ended up placing 9th out of 91 with a 4/1 record!

 

Pretty sure this is the old book - haven’t watched it though. He also is the guy who took a Nagash NH list to the top 8 at LVO. 

[lare2]

1 hour ago, dmorley21 said:

Pretty sure this is the old book - haven’t watched it though. He also is the guy who took a Nagash NH list to the top 8 at LVO. 

I started watching some Slambo coverage last night but stopped when I realised it was the old book. Couldn't tell you if it was this list though. 

 

3 hours ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Any of you folks getting games in able to speak to our offensive output?

Does auto wound on 6s to hit make a meaningful impact? Should you aim for more -save WoT even when you have the option for strikes-last due to losing MW output?

Not the best, truth be told. We're more of an attrition force. Fleeing models helps so much as well though. I'd imagine there's more offensive output in Scarlet Doom but I only tried it the once, got trounced, and haven't really looked at it again properly since. I've never really been a super aggressive player and I feel that that's what Scarlet Doom favours. 

Auto wounds on 6s is a nice treat but it's never been game-changing for me yet. It always gives a nice warm sensation inside when it happens though. 

As soon as I get a strikes-last I take it... unless it's something like 1 unit vs 1. Once I get it, great - any others I get I'll then modify.  

Speaking of list building, does anyone else currently suffer from analysis paralysis with our new book? I feel there's so many different ways to build now that I'm beginning to struggle with what list I actually like. 

Edited June 9, 2022 by lare2