AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[That Guy]

49 minutes ago, Caesar1802 said:

Quick question: can nagash benefit from shademist or the +5 ward? I assume not because he doesn't have the keyword but just wanted to make sure.

Nope, he can’t,  you assumed correctly.

Edited May 28, 2022 by That Guy

[lare2]

2 hours ago, Caesar1802 said:

Quick question: can nagash benefit from shademist or the +5 ward? I assume not because he doesn't have the keyword but just wanted to make sure.

You got it. He benefits from neither. 

[Arzalyn]

On 5/26/2022 at 5:27 PM, EnixLHQ said:

I agree there's no one right way, for sure. I just don't want us to fall into the hammer-and-anvil style play as the only one for Nighthaunt. I've seen so many posts since the leak that say exactly that, and then they lose their games and wonder why.

I think this happen mainly because it's a common play style for other factions, so you start trying to find what you already know. I did this myself, but after the first game it was apparent that the tome ask you to play in a different way.

I don't think we can replicate the hammer/anvil play style anyway. Like what are our anvils? Most of our units have a quiet similar defensive profile with 1 wound models, a 4+ save, and other debuffs like -1 to hit and wound coming from other sources (spells and WoT). Sure there is some minor variations, like chaingrasp having a better wound/points ratio but a better save, ou hexwraiths and hosts having more than 1 wound per model, but I don't think it's enough to make them a "anvil". What make them resilient is mostly our hero making models coming back + the 5+ save, and this can be done to any of those units.

This is one of the interesting parts of the tome for me, what make our units resilient is basically the reinforcement + the right support heroes.

[Rors]

I'd agree this army isn't about durability. It's about aggression. Haunt are not as agreessive and fragile as Daughters of Khaine but it's an army that relies on damage output and battleshock.

Our characters can be surprisingly durable though. Spirit host give them a bunch of resilience. Lord executioners hand out -1 to wound and Krulghast reduce damage. These characters can also support units. Overlapping buffs and synergy start to really add up.

If this were magic the gathering I'd say this army is a black and white deck. It's techy damage with debuffs and lots of healing and techy defense.

[Causalis]

Tuesday I'll have another match. Playing 2K points against Beastclaw Raiders this time. I'll post the match if you want.

As for the discussion about playstyle:

I feel like we can definitely be tanky since we ignore rend and have an army-wide FNP, plus all the debuffs we can dish out. In my match against Ironjawz I kind of did play my army hammer-and-anvil-style. Chainrasps were my anvil which soaked up all my opponent's damage and my big unit of Grimghasts were my hammer. 

I think what makes comparison between armies more difficult atm is, that all 3.0 battletomes have increased the points for units so armies with updated books are more expensive and smaller than 2.0 battletomes. This means 3.0 armies will generally field a smaller amount of wounds on the table which could make us percieve them as more squishy than they might actually be. 

But I do agree that Nighthaunt want to be agressive. No questions asked there! We want to ABC (always be charging) and really cripple the enemy on our turns because we our WoT debuffs fade away on their turn and thus we our ghosts will die in droves if we didn't manage to weaken the enemy forces enough. 

In my mind we play probably almost as agressive as DoK but we do have some tools to up our defense, so we aren't a pure glasshammer army.

 

A question I would like to ask is, how do you rate Lady O? I think she's really good but I don't know if she isn't a little bit too pricey. This may ofc be just my perception because I am used to the point costs from 2.0 and in my mind a 340p model should be a BIG influence on the table. I feel like she should be 320 or maybe even 300p.

[The_Dudemeister]

4 hours ago, Causalis said:

A question I would like to ask is, how do you rate Lady O? I think she's really good but I don't know if she isn't a little bit too pricey. This may ofc be just my perception because I am used to the point costs from 2.0 and in my mind a 340p model should be a BIG influence on the table. I feel like she should be 320 or maybe even 300p.

I rate her very highly. She did solid work in all my games. All just thanks to the 4+ ward, so I can position her wherever I want, depending on what I want to accomplish. 

Keep in mind that 7 wounds with a 4+ward and 14 wounds without it are not equal at all. Firstly her profile doesn't degrade. But more importantly every wound healed basically counts as 2. So she's more akin to a 14 wound Monster that has the special abilities to always count as full health and double every healing received. 

Her main ability and second huge factor for her price increase is the resurrection. D6 slain models without range restriction or any requirements is nuts. A single Spirit Host already costs 42 points, a Hexwraith 32. This can go out of hand real quick. Especially when you consider that she resurrects her own bodyguards. Pricing her "correctly" must be a nightmare. 

Tzeentch for example has the Gaunt Summoner. For 255 points you get a 2-cast wizard. He also has a solid war scroll spell. Other than that he has 1 attack melee and shooting, aka nothing. He has 5 wounds with a 6+save and no other defensive ability, so needs to be hidden deep in the deployment zone and needs the first turn. 

Then he summons 5 Pink Horrors for 125 points (should cost more). For him, it's therefore easy to calculate what he should cost. Lady O on the other hand can potentially put an eye watering number of extra points on the table. And not just in the first turn. She can wait it out to really maximize a good d6 roll. As a Tzeentch player, I can tell you that the Gaunt Summoner just melts, often before putting the Horrors on the table that are baked into his points cost.

The only reason why she might not end up a tournament staple is because so many of our heroes are worth taking now. And there's only so many points we can spend. But nothing about her performances in my games screamed that she needed to be cheaper so far. But I'd take a points reduction if GW disagrees with me 😊

Edited May 28, 2022 by The_Dudemeister

[Grimoriano]

I have a question, how much range has the death magic incarnate? (Nagash)

[Jaskier]

47 minutes ago, Grimoriano said:

I have a question, how much range has the death magic incarnate? (Nagash)

If a command ability doesn't have a listed range and can affect other units beside the user, it uses the standard ranges for command abilities - so wholly within 12" from a hero, or wholly within 18" from a general. Seeing as Nagash always counts as a general, in this case it's effectively got a wholly within 18" range. 

[EnixLHQ]

I finally got my hardback in hand and cracked it open for some lore reading, and I'm loving the new style they're using for the prose. The last book had a "we're ghosts, ooo so scary" vibe to it and was pretty much it, but in this one they detail a great deal of reasons to fear them as well as what breaks the ghosts and why. And it's written with more of a consistent tone I appreciate.

Something else, they wrote this about Lady Olynder, "Indeed, conventional military tactics are seen as rather quaint by the Mortarch of Grief. Her way is that of psychological warfare, for if she can steal the courage from her foes, victory is all but assured."

Oh, and this bit which I absolutely LOVE, "...sending mortal agents in the guise of survivors, itinerant elders and dirge-minstrels to bear word of the coming Nighthaunt through a dozen realmgates and more. Many of their stories contained snippets of ancient rites or summon-songs and were worded in such a way to stick in the mind, much as a tune might haunt the ear." And with that my Shanty of Woe is canon!

Sorry, having a little lore nerdgasm over here.

[Rors]

 

Is there any clarification on how one is turned into a nighthaunt. I've seen read that it's all dead now, or that it's those who were sinners from their prospective religions and didn't make it into their heavens, or that it's all the afterlife mini-realms who pulled into the central oblivion at the core of Shyish. I only have the actual rules right now, I'll buy the book soon. Some clarification would help me with my own head cannon and army narrative though.

@EnixLHQ

[EnixLHQ]

4 hours ago, Rors said:

 

Is there any clarification on how one is turned into a nighthaunt. I've seen read that it's all dead now, or that it's those who were sinners from their prospective religions and didn't make it into their heavens, or that it's all the afterlife mini-realms who pulled into the central oblivion at the core of Shyish. I only have the actual rules right now, I'll buy the book soon. Some clarification would help me with my own head cannon and army narrative though.

@EnixLHQ

Yeah, it gets into it pretty early on.

From the point of view of this book, "..the dead have been claimed utterly by the Great Necromancer..." and "Rather than being allowed to fade gently into nothingness, they have been remade into weapons of war."

However, a very strong sense of faith or conviction can temporarily interrupt the process. It's the same phenomenon that allows attacks to hit Nighthaunt. If the will is strong enough a soul can spend a little time uncorrupted, but will eventually succumb.

All souls go to Shyish upon death, unless intervened upon by an outside force. It happens so fast that most don't perceive the journey, called to an afterlife that their beliefs help manifest for their culture. But, once there, depending on how faithful or strong the conviction of *their entire culture*, the afterlife might be struggling against the pull of the Nadir and thus can resist Nagash's curse for a bit.

But, for any culture that's been weakened a bit, or a soul that loses their will or lets it falter, the curse twists them into Nighthaunt. There's a passage here that in Shyish, in an afterlife that's still fighting, an outbreak of Nighthaunt manifested suddenly when the ghostly protectors fighting shoulder-to-shoulder with their living kin faltered resulting in them "falling upon their once-beloved relatives with a monstrous need to kill."

The only exceptions, other than soul-theft by Sigmar, the Deepkin, or others, are when the souls are devout in the service to Nagash or are killed by those who are, who he allows them to shape into something else. The Scriptor Mortis' purpose is to do exactly that on Nagash's behalf, and powerful necromancers are often allowed to shape the dead how they like. The Soulblight are another creature entirely, created by the Soulblight curse and thus are transformed (dying from the curse might be up in the air) without a soul escaping, so they don't become Nighthaunt. And defacto serving Nagash (to an extent) as a race, they are allowed to play at necromancy without many rules being enforced with souls.

Edited May 29, 2022 by EnixLHQ

[Nos]

Is the Scriptor Mortis as gimmicky as he reads? I can't see past it but love to be wrong with such a gorgeous model.

[EnixLHQ]

2 hours ago, Nos said:

Is the Scriptor Mortis as gimmicky as he reads? I can't see past it but love to be wrong with such a gorgeous model.

He's gimmicky in that you usually want your points to be worth more than what you spend them on, and he'll likely only be worth exactly as much.

In other words, spending 340 on Olynder or 160 on some Reapers you expect them to be able to fight heroes, empty units, and contest objectives. The Scriptor is most likely only going to put out about 8 wounds in a game for 155 points and a coveted hero slot, maybe taking out an opponent's 150 point hero.

[Dogmantra]

The thing that pushes the Scriptor Mortis to a really hard sell for me is that his attack is significantly worse than any other hero attack. I feel like the way the faction is set up, and the fact I am quite drawn to Spirit Hosts makes 6 heroes all getting stuck in quite appealing, but the Scriptor Mortis has fewer attacks, worse to hit, worse rend, and worse damage than basically all the other heroes. If only he could get stuck in and threaten that MW bomb, I'd be much much more inclined to search one out and pick one up.

[Neck-Romantic]

I keep sayin he should have been a wizard or priest to justify his appaling combat.

[EnixLHQ]

I agree. Wizard in the least. But, no reason not to have the model at the ready as we've seen FAQs and updates drastically change things over time. He just won't be competitive-relevant for a good while.

[The_Dudemeister]

Making him a Wizard with a relic is a solid way to make him truly useful. We have more worthwhile spells than we can realistically get casts in. Especially with all our Wizards having baller warscroll spells in addition. Arcane Tome is therefore a premium relic for us anyway

 

On a positive note. I don't think he and the Krulghast should have gotten 6 wounds... not that I'm complaining 😇

But what makes them (and especially the bony Scriptor) realistically more beefy than the likes of Lord Executioner, Knight of Shrouds as combat heroes or Dreadblades on steeds other than being shiny new models from Games Workshop®?

It's fair to point out this neat advantage they have

[Rors]

I think Scriptor with tome makes him a lot better but I think the other point you were getting at is that we could also put the times on a combat hero.

For base ability for the Scriptor is just too swingy in my opinion. Sometimes you'll get an early advantage out of him and it'll be great, other times he'll be a waste of resources. I kinda think he has the same problem as the artifact that brings back a unit on a 4+. It's a gamble where you invest resources on the chance that you get more bang for buck than you put in with the risk that you might also waste them. Problem with both is the pay off doesn't justify the risk.

If Scriptor didn't become a wizard I'd like him to be able to write a name everyturn and roll for each name in his book each turn. Then he'd have this snowballing potential and the gamble would be if your opponent can take him out soon enough.

 

[Kadeton]

The big problem with the Scriptor is the limitation that his main ability doesn't affect Death units at all. In those matchups, he's literally just dead weight. If that wasn't the case he'd still be an unreliable slot machine, but at least he wouldn't be a non-functional slot machine.

Taking away the non-Death requirement probably wouldn't be enough to get most people to take him, other than just for fun, but I do think it's needed. Adding the Priest keyword would be a neat boost to his usability with minimum change to the warscroll.

[Neck-Romantic]

He just doesnt do enough to warrant a hero slot.

Take him compared to Awlrach; both are brand new to this release cycle. Awlrach is quite overpowered for his points imho, coming in with more  wounds, faster movement, nasty melee potential, impact MW's, amazing board control, and crazy DBH synergy shenanigans.

Scriptor is only one of 2 units with less than our standard 8" move (which bothers me) ... the only hero with a truly subpar attack characteristic... and has a single  ability that is both overly complex *and* entirely possible to not even trigger. And doesnt affect Death units. And isnt cheap point-wise.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Neck-Romantic

[Nos]

11 hours ago, Rors said:

I think Scriptor with tome makes him a lot better but I think the other point you were getting at is that we could also put the times on a combat hero.

For base ability for the Scriptor is just too swingy in my opinion. Sometimes you'll get an early advantage out of him and it'll be great, other times he'll be a waste of resources. I kinda think he has the same problem as the artifact that brings back a unit on a 4+. It's a gamble where you invest resources on the chance that you get more bang for buck than you put in with the risk that you might also waste them. Problem with both is the pay off doesn't justify the risk.

If Scriptor didn't become a wizard I'd like him to be able to write a name everyturn and roll for each name in his book each turn. Then he'd have this snowballing potential and the gamble would be if your opponent can take him out soon enough.

 

I don't think you'll ever get an early advantage out of him due to the very specific wording.

You can't kill anyone on turn 1 because you can't roll lower than a 1.

On turn 2 you have to roll a 1.

On turn 3 a 1 or 2

On 4, a 1-3

On 5, a 1-4 and at the end of the game, a 1-5.

[The_Dudemeister]

1 hour ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Scriptor is only one of 2 units with less than our standard 8" move (which bothers me) ...

I'm having a Deja Vu 😁

Scriptor has been upgraded to 8" from his Arena of Shades profile. Our Underworlds warband around the Briar Queen are the only 6" units.

 

No idea where he'd want to go with his attack profile and no buffing aura, but he can arrive there faster now

[Nos]

1 hour ago, The_Dudemeister said:

I'm having a Deja Vu 😁

Scriptor has been upgraded to 8" from his Arena of Shades profile. Our Underworlds warband around the Briar Queen are the only 6" units.

 

No idea where he'd want to go with his attack profile and no buffing aura, but he can arrive there faster now

He can get to his job at the Post Office way faster with 8"

[The_Dudemeister]

Sooo, what are y'all doing with the Mystic Shield token that comes with the warscroll cards?

 

I was thinking about allying in a Vampire Lord so he can cast it on himself for a juicy 2+ save. Is that worth not taking a Nighthaunt unit? Maybe, maybe not. But I payed for all the tokens and by Nagash, I will use all the tokens!

 

Anyway, don't mind me, gonna use all 8 Fight-Last tokens that are provided with the battletome in a single turn ☝️

[EnixLHQ]

I mean, if you need to use the token, I think it's there for Nagash. Got to love that dry British humor.