AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[lare2]

5 minutes ago, Boggler said:

But, none of them had as bad a starting place as Nighthaunt. None of them.

Now that's the truth - ha ha! Man, it's been rough! My tactics have always pretty much been the same every game - run around as fast as possible and try my best to avoid fighting. Saying that, I think I'm undefeated in 3rd with my NH. Would never dream of taking them to a tourney mind. 

[dmorley21]

It’s also worth noting that with each 3.0 book there were a lot of people who thought the book was rather weak/bad. Even Stormcast players!

So expect that when the new book drops. Each book though, with time, ended up being solid IMO (and per tournament results, if you play those like me). 

[Boggler]

53 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

Even Stormcast players!

I wonder where we'd be if the three broken SCE warscrolls didn't come out overtuned?

Cities still wouldn't get their results. KO wouldn't get their results. SCE wouldn't get their results...

SCE has a lot of warscrolls and there is a ton of work that needs to be done internally balancing things before people can say that that book is good. I'd say that as far as 3.0 goes, the SCE book is the worst thing in the game right now and its internal balance is what is killing the game. Its not fun seeing the same spammed warscrolls over and over. Do you want to ally these broken warscrolls? No problem, you're Order!

Orruk Warclans. Same thing. IJ came out ok. Specifically one build type with two warscrolls. (Not that they have many to choose from.) Bonesplitterz is not in a good place. In fact, they got neutered for no reason and didn't gain anything except for Kragnos who I still have no idea why he exists... I'm a Gordrak fan... Kruleboys badly needed a points decrease and didn't get one on the first opportunity GW had at providing them one. As far as I know Kruleboyz haven't won anything. Even Bonesplitterz got a 5-0...

Nurgle seems ok. Its fun to play against and for what its worth, the models are very nice and I've seen some super amazing hobby from the players that play this faction. I'm sure there are some that are annoyed that their Blightkings won't be seeing much play anymore. That's hardly a good thing as shelved models aren't fun for anyone. Cough, whole shelved Nighthaunt army...cough...

FS. So rarely do I see them played that I honestly won't have any idea about what they did before and even what they do now.

Idoneth is a coin toss at this point. All those leftover Namarti (from when Eeels rules everything.) seem to be getting bought up and assembled. It'll be a completely different playstyle for them for sure. I personally don't find the army as threatening as it once was. Maybe its just me.

As for the future. Who knows really? I for sure don't want to see any more previews!

If something comes out and I don't exactly understand why the models that I have aren't working out then I guess I'll just have to buy more and different models!

Seriously, I posted my army a few pages ago and no one replied about what to buy next. I guess we are all just here for the salt!

 

[Neck-Romantic]

Why ask what to buy next when youve acknowledged the army is in a bad spot and all the wishlisting/saltmining is pointless til the book drops?

Any advice is meaningless at this point. I would have told people (and have) that Torments and Bladegheists or Hosts work well together right up to the point they stripped them of any synergy.

It really isnt a good time to buy models from a strategic force building perspective.

[dmorley21]

1 hour ago, Boggler said:

Seriously, I posted my army a few pages ago and no one replied about what to buy next. I guess we are all just here for the salt!

Nobody knows what the new book entails. Recommending what to buy next is a fool's errand. Based on the FOMO box, it seems like Myrmourns are pretty good. And they're cheap. So buy those. 

I'm interested in people's thoughts on the new Incarnate. Not sure if everyone has seen the rules, but in essence it's a 400 point monster that starts at level 2 and instead of being slain, it can go down a level (or up if it eats an endless spell) at the end of combat. It bonds with a non-unique hero, grants re-roll charges and runs to everybody (you and your opponent) within a certain range (12" at max) and if you use all out attack on it, it grants all out attack to nearby friendly units. In addition, it's a monster (has the keyword). It moves 12", flies, and has two attack profiles:

1", 7-9 attacks, 3+, 3+, -2, 2 damage

2", 2-4 attacks, 3+, 2+, -3, 4 damage

At first blush, it's the monster we always wished we had. If your bonded hero dies, it goes wild and can and will attack your own units. This is problematic if you're in a fight with it and another one of your units. However, until the new book drops, Emerald Host is a way of preventing this from happening (this matters to me as I'm in a GT in May that won't use the new book unless it drops in April). It also prevents you from using other allies. Worth noting, Nagash is not an ally. I've currently got two lists I'm spitballing:

Nagash / Scriptor Mortis (general, PotFW) / Incarnate / 10 Chainrasp / 5 Hexwraiths / 6 Spirit Hosts

or

Guardian of Souls (general, PotFW) / Reikenor / Spirit Torment / Incarnate / Cogs / 30 Reapers / 5 Hexwraiths / 9 Spirit Hosts/ 8 Myrmourns

 

The Scriptor Mortis is an interesting take as it's a bit more survivable than our other basic heroes. Plus it can just do its thing and hide in the backfield while it's Incarnate rampages along with Nagash. 

The second list is much more balanced. Both seem like a lot of fun to play - I'm bummed the darn Incarnate is currently trapped in an expensive terrain box, even if the terrain looks awesome. Hard to justify when there's a new book around the corner. 

[Kadeton]

I don't think it overly matters if the hero bound to the Incarnate dies. You still get to control its movement and it gets buffed by going wild, so just throw it into the enemy and let it go to town.

Even in the worst case scenario (where your opponent has no endless spells and no monsters for it to prey on), it's still impossible to kill quickly. Once it gets into combat - which should be pretty easy - it's guaranteed to get to make its attacks, since no matter how much damage you deal it cannot die before the end of the turn (and if it's Primal or higher, it cannot die at all - plus you can still get lucky on the roll even if it suffers a lot of damage).

For an army like Nighthaunt which are total glass cannons, having access to that kind of resilience seems like a huge boon. Use it to lock down (and probably kill!) your opponent's biggest hammers in the melee, while giving out bonuses to hit and rerolls for charges (great if we end up keeping some version of Wave of Terror) and preventing retreats. It also seems great for blocking charge lanes, zoning out space, etc. - all the "anvil" stuff that we've never had a piece capable of doing.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

5 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

Nobody knows what the new book entails. Recommending what to buy next is a fool's errand. Based on the FOMO box, it seems like Myrmourns are pretty good. And they're cheap. So buy those. 

I'm interested in people's thoughts on the new Incarnate. Not sure if everyone has seen the rules, but in essence it's a 400 point monster that starts at level 2 and instead of being slain, it can go down a level (or up if it eats an endless spell) at the end of combat. It bonds with a non-unique hero, grants re-roll charges and runs to everybody (you and your opponent) within a certain range (12" at max) and if you use all out attack on it, it grants all out attack to nearby friendly units. In addition, it's a monster (has the keyword). It moves 12", flies, and has two attack profiles:

1", 7-9 attacks, 3+, 3+, -2, 2 damage

2", 2-4 attacks, 3+, 2+, -3, 4 damage

At first blush, it's the monster we always wished we had. If your bonded hero dies, it goes wild and can and will attack your own units. This is problematic if you're in a fight with it and another one of your units. However, until the new book drops, Emerald Host is a way of preventing this from happening (this matters to me as I'm in a GT in May that won't use the new book unless it drops in April). It also prevents you from using other allies. Worth noting, Nagash is not an ally. I've currently got two lists I'm spitballing:

Nagash / Scriptor Mortis (general, PotFW) / Incarnate / 10 Chainrasp / 5 Hexwraiths / 6 Spirit Hosts

or

Guardian of Souls (general, PotFW) / Reikenor / Spirit Torment / Incarnate / Cogs / 30 Reapers / 5 Hexwraiths / 9 Spirit Hosts/ 8 Myrmourns

 

The Scriptor Mortis is an interesting take as it's a bit more survivable than our other basic heroes. Plus it can just do its thing and hide in the backfield while it's Incarnate rampages along with Nagash. 

The second list is much more balanced. Both seem like a lot of fun to play - I'm bummed the darn Incarnate is currently trapped in an expensive terrain box, even if the terrain looks awesome. Hard to justify when there's a new book around the corner. 

The Krondspine Incarnate definitely seems like a pretty punchy combat monster, and with some nice buff auras, too. Worth noting, I think it's currently not clear whether named characters can bond to Incarnates, since they appear to be classified as enhancements. Your sample lists don't have a problem with this, but you might not be able to bind an Incarnate to Nagash or whoever.

Still though, the Incarnate seems kinda tailor-made for Nighthaunt, being a big, punchy and hard to kill monster. It seems thoroughly worth its 400 points.

[dmorley21]

3 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

The Krondspine Incarnate definitely seems like a pretty punchy combat monster, and with some nice buff auras, too. Worth noting, I think it's currently not clear whether named characters can bond to Incarnates, since they appear to be classified as enhancements. Your sample lists don't have a problem with this, but you might not be able to bind an Incarnate to Nagash or whoever.

Still though, the Incarnate seems kinda tailor-made for Nighthaunt, being a big, punchy and hard to kill monster. It seems thoroughly worth its 400 points.

Pretty sure it can only bond with non-unique characters. That’s why I went the route I did. Otherwise, Olynder in Emerald Host would be a no brainer. 

[Boggler]

11 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

Nobody knows what the new book entails. Recommending what to buy next is a fool's errand. Based on the FOMO box, it seems like Myrmourns are pretty good. And they're cheap. So buy those. 

Except I already have 12 of them...

The correct answer would have been Black Coach. Even though I'm not sold on such an expensive model. Time will tell.

The girl who is consistently winning with Nighthaunt does take two in her lists, with Lady O and 20+ Hexwraiths.

Her army must look amazing!

As for the Krondspine... Ugh... A Monster that Nigththaunt can take in an edition designed around taking and scoring with Monsters... Come on, its obvious we'll have to try it out... It again points out how screwed over we got with the way 3.0 works. If you want to call it saltmining then fine. Its just facts. I'm also not going to pay for any GW terrain for a model that is locked in their box so it'll be a long time before I get a Krondspine of my own and by that time I'll have hopefully tried out a bunch of other new book NH lists. Low priority, low focus for me.

If you had to have a third version list I'd go along the lines of the Chainrasp, Grimghast, Lady O, ST/Kruciator castle. Try and out live your opponent while the Krondspine heads off on its own. If we get an artefact similar to the old Shroud of Darkness (or even mirror shield!)then it'll be a no brainer combo with whichever hero you choose. Again, we'll know more with the new book.

[Zappgrot]

16 hours ago, lare2 said:

Now that's the truth - ha ha! Man, it's been rough! My tactics have always pretty much been the same every game - run around as fast as possible and try my best to avoid fighting. Saying that, I think I'm undefeated in 3rd with my NH. Would never dream of taking them to a tourney mind. 

There are 8  battle tactics in the game and five of them do not include killing models.  You can easily win whit no fighting at all.  Armies that are great at board control can dominate tournents trough sheer movment alone. Legion of the First prince beeing a prime example in 3.0 and legion of greif  in 2.0.  Even if NH are not great at killing i would be fine whit them if they where a board control army. IT think that even sort of fits the theme. 

[Neck-Romantic]

Not neccesarily an attractive strategy though. 

I know I dont collect, assemble, paint all my wargaming figures to be the best at running away and fulfilling sidequests 😅

[Greasygeek]

Man I feel weird about the Arena of Shades box. I was absolutely sure that this was an insta buy for me and still love the new units BUT with the battletomes still not released it’s hard to find a buyer for the DoK models and extra spirit torment. 
The fact that the profiles released yet are so poor doesn’t exactly make the box more interesting. 
For the love og AOS, I really don’t get why GW think it’s smart to release these boxes, with useless profiles way before battletomes are out. FYI, I actually still believe that the profiles will make sense when the tome is out, but for now I feel like GW kills their own momentum. That sucks.

[Neck-Romantic]

At least we should be seeing the book by the end of May at the latest, since they said 'Spring' 🤔

Edited April 10, 2022 by Neck-Romantic

[That Guy]

I ran the Craventhrone guard today, just because I couldn’t wait.
I’ve build 10 of them and ran them reinforced with a screen of chainrasps. Had the briar queen accompanying them and a krulghast. It was nice knowing that if they can shoot things, he can too. The 5+ ward en also the 5+ rally was very Effective. also played a black coach with some hexwraiths some banshees and a dreadblade. I played against Tzeentch demons and oh boy do those banshees do work now. They ate a bunch of the spells thrown at me while I advanced on them. I played emerald host, running hexwraiths on the flanks and chainrasps, with craventhrone, krulghast and briar queen down the middle with banshees going inbetween the forces. The craventhrone often received all out attack from me and they did hail down some wounds. The briar queen with her spell, made it an annoying experience for the player. When they barraged my crave throne I just lost a few and the black coach with rally brought them back. When they charged my screens, I shot them and all the time they were in range. And when they almost got to my craventhrone, I teleported them on a flank with my dreadblade behind some hexwraiths and kept shooting hahhahahah. Had so much fun trolling the enemy. Just having a ranged unit like this with the teleport shenanigans is big fun. You should have seen his face when he was in cover and I shot him through a wall. Did the craventhrone put numbers down? Nahh… not really, they chipped away, but they were an annoying distraction for him and he felt like he was save nowhere. Eventually targeting the cursed target with them was fun too. I am looking forward to the new tome. Man… I was laughing my ass of. What a joy. 

Edited April 11, 2022 by That Guy

[Evil Bob]

On 4/6/2022 at 11:03 AM, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I base feel like Nighthaunt are still hurt today by changes that were made to get Nighthaunt models under control in Legions of Nagash when that was the way to run the army competitvely.

When Grimghasts work as battleline and fill in the roll of elites then it shouldn’t have been a surprise GW was going to nerf them. After all did have other kits to sell. Personally I was a Chainwrasp fan but the poor guys weren’t getting any traction back then. If the entire viability of the Nighthaunt book was on Grimghasts then GW pulled an epic fail.

Not going to disagree the point hike wasn’t also to get at LoN. GW had a long history of systematically nerfing down that book. Even when it wasn’t necessary: endless Necromancer point hikes, Deathmarch being the first to get wholly-within rules, etc. The Soul Wars box at first was like a major fix after all the ridiculousness. The LoN book was filled with terrible elite options and the power creep wasn’t helping so the GRs were a godsend (or Nagashsend). I seriously thought some kind of positive effort was finally being put forth by GW. They certainly proved me wrong.

[Neck-Romantic]

Think we will see anything new beyond arena of shades and awlrach?

Edited April 12, 2022 by Neck-Romantic

[That Guy]

2 hours ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Think we will see anything new beyond arena of shades and awlrach?

It is pretty unusual to have a new unit released even after a battle box. That does wake the question inside: “Is there more?”. Personally i think we might still have a shot on a few new units. I think they’ll keep the Scriptor Mortis exclusive to the box for a while, but i do believe they might release the craventhrone guard as a seperate box set when the codex releases. It’s already pretty unusual to have a new unit release on top of a hero in a boxed set. I still have some hope to see a monster release, just as a final surprise. At this point the usual release cycle is broken, so it’s all uncertain. We can however for sure expect a new themed dice set. Every new book release both aos and 40k gets a new dice set nowadays. Let’s pray ours is not overly boring. On top of that, i truelly hope they don’t forget about the Mournghul. Because in fact that is our monster already. I just hope they give him some of his lost glory back. Even if they would return him to his old state, i believe in the current meta, that isn’t do broken anymore. #unleashthebeast. If not i might consider that krondspine incarnate and  bind it to a guardian of souls or something, under reikenors if it still exists. Sadly we can’t bind it to Lady O, Reikenor or Nagash, because the incarnates are considered enhancements. What do you guys think about Krondspine in our army?

Edited April 12, 2022 by That Guy

[Neck-Romantic]

At this point I dont even remember everything the Mournghul lost beyond a point of save. What else did he used to do?

[That Guy]

41 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

At this point I dont even remember everything the Mournghul lost beyond a point of save. What else did he used to do?

Well yes, it used to be 3+ save on top of that his Ethereal was stronger, it used to outright ignore rend, instead of also blocking out positive modifiers. He had 2 iterations i believe the older even stronger. I do know that ravening onslaught caused 6+ to hit to do +1 damage on his attacks making them the same profile as now but with 3 damage. No frightful touch though. He also was, you know a lot cheaper. In his oldest iteration he was summonable(which also would allow him to get healed from multiple sources) and had a 5+ Ward.

This used to be his oldest and strongest state:

Edited April 12, 2022 by That Guy

[Neck-Romantic]

TBH I much prefer frightfull touch; Ide rather bypass the wound and save rolls for 2 instead of 3 damage.

Beyond that and the point of save he seems pretty much the same

[Jabbuk]

7 hours ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Think we will see anything new beyond arena of shades and awlrach?

We saw the ferry-man centerpiece that is looking amazing. So that's a new thing that'll come out for sure! Hopefully along the book.

[dmorley21]

5 hours ago, That Guy said:

It is pretty unusual to have a new unit released even after a battle box. That does wake the question inside: “Is there more?”. Personally i think we might still have a shot on a few new units. I think they’ll keep the Scriptor Mortis exclusive to the box for a while, but i do believe they might release the craventhrone guard as a seperate box set when the codex releases. It’s already pretty unusual to have a new unit release on top of a hero in a boxed set. I still have some hope to see a monster release, just as a final surprise. At this point the usual release cycle is broken, so it’s all uncertain. We can however for sure expect a new themed dice set. Every new book release both aos and 40k gets a new dice set nowadays. Let’s pray ours is not overly boring. On top of that, i truelly hope they don’t forget about the Mournghul. Because in fact that is our monster already. I just hope they give him some of his lost glory back. Even if they would return him to his old state, i believe in the current meta, that isn’t do broken anymore. #unleashthebeast. If not i might consider that krondspine incarnate and  bind it to a guardian of souls or something, under reikenors if it still exists. Sadly we can’t bind it to Lady O, Reikenor or Nagash, because the incarnates are considered enhancements. What do you guys think about Krondspine in our army?

The Mourngul is Forgeworld and will not be updated with the book. Forgeworld stuff tends to get update randomly all together during the some summers.

I think the incarnate has a ton of potential in our army. It does not need to be bonded to a wizard, so bonding it to the Scriptor Mortis and then hiding the Mortis might have some game too. 

[That Guy]

11 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

The Mourngul is Forgeworld and will not be updated with the book. Forgeworld stuff tends to get update randomly all together during the some summers.

I think the incarnate has a ton of potential in our army. It does not need to be bonded to a wizard, so bonding it to the Scriptor Mortis and then hiding the Mortis might have some game too. 

You are right. It’s rules won’t be updated inside the tome. Maybe this will change if GW decides to keep selling forgeworld models with their new releases, for example like with the tyranids at the moment. They are however more on point with updating forgeworld rules in accordance to new releases through the faq pages. As for the Krondspine, i do not disagree that the Scriptor Mortis bond is a good choice. He just has to judge a model and hide, but i’d still rather bond him on a wizard and benefit from a boost to the casting.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

47 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

The Mourngul is Forgeworld and will not be updated with the book. Forgeworld stuff tends to get update randomly all together during the some summers.

I think the incarnate has a ton of potential in our army. It does not need to be bonded to a wizard, so bonding it to the Scriptor Mortis and then hiding the Mortis might have some game too. 

The Bonegrinder Gargant got an update when Sons of Behemat came out, so who knows? I find it equally probable that Forgeworld drops support of AoS altogether in the near future, though.

[Neck-Romantic]

I didnt realize Scriptor was a wizard