AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion

[DocKeule]

True but I had the misfortune to play against them 🤣

[HollowHills]

4 hours ago, That Guy said:

For me those reasons are exactly why I can and will play them. I own many forces since I love a wide range of miniatures. When i like the look of a thing and they can fit within a certain fluff scenario for me, I will get a box and give it a swing. If they are also competitive, that's a bonus. I can totally see the phoenixes and dragons fly amongst the many sea creatures of the idoneth within the ethersea. Now if I will build stormcast eternals on top of those dragons, or an high elf on the phoenix... that's... something I might change although i have no problem with true allies amongst the idoneth either.

It's definitely a positive to be able to include cool models without buying a whole army. I was kinda hoping we'd get coalition rules for DoK as part of the fluffy secret alliance.

Lots of awesome custom model options too to make them themed.

I just find with our high points costs I want to get all my models on the table.

[JackStreicher]

The real letdown to me is that our heroes are locked to their mount or their feet. If they‘re not going to add new units, they could at least open up some modelling/conversion options.
It'd been no issue to simply make a Leviadon with a Tidecaster or a King on top. You can almost kitbash it from the box itself.
The same goes for eels and Allopexes.
They could even simply make a generic „Prince“ profile to ne used on any mount.

Just give us options for our heroes. An Artefact and maybe a Command Trait are no real options.

Kings 110 pts:
- Eel + 80 points
- Allopex + 140 points
- Leviadon + 400 points

Same for Tidecasters and the book gets way more interesting
^^

Edited March 7, 2022 by JackStreicher

[That Guy]

Currently trying to make a full on fuethan list work with heavy shark build i still think groups of 2 sharks are just the way to go. Since how the king works with giving high tide i feel he will be a key part of fuethan lists.
With these lists i’m trying to make the best of the Akhelian King. He is a great asset for a multi turn strike first. By having a 1 drop, we can be really strong against alpha strike lists, threathening to have multiple units with strike first in turn one. Getting alpha striked if you don’t go first would be the worst but than we still benefit from cover and have a chance on the double turn. In their case going second means you can put on strike first on 1-3 units and threathen their turn 1 charge. In case of not facing an alpha strike list, but a shoot heavy list, we can comfortably advance benefitting from Creeping mist, while we put on strike first during flood tide and benefit from it during high tide as well. Against a melee heavy list that doesn’t alpha strike we can do some shenanigans late game with Spiteful riptide. Now with flaming weapon and  unstoppable fury the Akhelian King can dish out 5(or more) rend -3, damage 4 attacks on the charge with just his polearm. In case of facing nurgle/slaanesh, kruleboyz, lumineth, etc. You can take the Armour of Cythal instead and laugh at their 6’s. With the mount trait i like to go defensive with voidchill, but you can take savage ferocity if you want to go ultra aggro.

As for the Tidecaster. Taking Surging tides just boosts our entire army in what they already want to do. Having the option to also pick Creeping Mists or Spiteful Riptide, just allows us to specialize our tides against a specific army. Counter-Currents is a great spell, having the option to mess with your opponents movement and charge ranges has proven to be very effective in other armies as well. Her own spell is a great mix of utility and damage too. Adding in the endless spells allows you to just massively heal a shark unit or the king or cast multiple spells at once with the cogs. The cogs can also amplify the Flood tides, especially with Surging Tides ritual. Finally allies. Dragons, you can put in a phoenix here as well if you like, in fact you could scrap 1 of the endless spells and go crazy with your full 400 points if you like. I added dragons, because they are similarly tanky, mobile and hit hard in melee to sharks, but they add a nice mortal wound source. They are also another counter to extreme aggro builds and they are monsters, which makes scoring bonus VP a thing without having to waste a spell for it. Finally i have to say. This list is deceptively beefy, with the protection of the tides, all multi wound models, options for healing, all out defense. It’s also a very mobile army that can both hit hard in shooting and melee and there’s several ways to shenanigan your opponents movement, even in the combat phase(with the net shark). But first and foremost, this is an aggressive army who has answers against aggression as well. We are not nurgle, we will still have to play a glasscannon roll, but boy do we have the options to do so with this army. The hunt is on.

right now i’m thinking:

Army Faction: Idoneth Deepkin
    - Army Subfaction: Fuethán
    - Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
    - Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

LEADER
Akhelian King (250)*
    - General
    - Trait: Unstoppable Fury 
    - Mount Trait: Void Chill Darkness
    - Artefact: Tome(flame wep)/ Armour of Cythal (matchup dependent) 

Isharann Tidecaster (150)*
    - Spell: Counter-Current 
    - Rituals: Surging Stream & Creeping Mist/Spiteful Riptide(Mist vs Range heavy, Riptide in any other situation, especially vs alpha strike)

BATTLELINE
1 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)*
    - Razorshell Harpoon Launcher

1 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)*
    - Razorshell Harpoon Launcher

1 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)*
    - Razorshell Harpoon Launcher

Akhelian Allopexes (165)*
    - Retarius Net Launcher

ALLIES
Stormdrake Guard (340)*

ENDLESS SPELL
Emerald Lifeswarm (60)

Chronomantic Cogs (45)

TERRAIN
Gloomtide Shipwreck (0)

CORE BATTALIONS:

*Battle Regiment

TOTAL POINTS: (2000/2000)

Edited March 8, 2022 by That Guy

[vinnyt]

But they didn't and they won't give us monster mounts. It's insane to me that we didn't even get a new non-hero unit but thems the breaks when you're not stormcast. 

This is gonna be like nurgle where everyone freaks out about points increases and then we start winning tournaments. 

New Deepkin is a POWER book with multiple super interesting archetypes. I think it's gonna become apparent fairly quickly how strong this book can be. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by vinnyt

[HollowHills]

I'm kinda finding it hard to fit Shelley the Turtle into my list, but I'm worried about taking a list without a monster.

Interested to try sea eidolon now, but again points.

[DocKeule]

4 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

The real letdown to me is that our heroes are locked to their mount or their feet. If they‘re not going to add new units, they could at least open up some modelling/conversion options.
It'd been no issue to simply make a Leviadon with a Tidecaster or a King on top. You can almost kitbash it from the box itself.
The same goes for eels and Allopexes.
They could even simply make a generic „Prince“ profile to ne used on any mount.

Just give us options for our heroes. An Artefact and maybe a Command Trait are no real options.

Kings 110 pts:
- Eel + 80 points
- Allopex + 140 points
- Leviadon + 400 points

Same for Tidecasters and the book gets way more interesting
^^

I like the idea but I guess that is too WHF for GW in 2022. 

 

2 hours ago, vinnyt said:

But they didn't and they won't give us monster mounts. It's insane to me that we didn't even get a new non-hero unit but thems the breaks when you're not stormcast. 

No surprise there. This has been their standard procedure for a while now. And frankly I don't think the roster is the main issue.
 

2 hours ago, vinnyt said:

This is gonna be like nurgle where everyone freaks out about points increases and then we start winning tournaments. 

New Deepkin is a POWER book with multiple super interesting archetypes. I think it's gonna become apparent fairly quickly how strong this book can be. 

Here is where you lose me. Why would IDK start winning now with pretty much everything being nerfed? Then we should have dominated tournaments before with all the buffs we used to have. 

It's not that we got anything new in return like nurgle did with the disease-mechanic. Most profiles have been barely changed just the points went up. We already had most of these tools at our disposal. The only thing new is the improved Namarti, especially the Thralls. 

 

[Kitsumy]

32 minutes ago, DocKeule said:

Here is where you lose me. Why would IDK start winning now with pretty much everything being nerfed? Then we should have dominated tournaments before with all the buffs we used to have

exactly this, some people writting as if idk were totally op and top army. when numbers. tourneys etc shows them as midtier army. and tome isnt a buff at all.

 

at best heavy namarti lists will be around the same power as any build we had before tome. every enclave lost every pasive. every aura/buff was nerfed to not affect ranged and/or not affect mounts. turtle is worse, ishlaen is worse tanking( his role), eidolons are worse.. so whats better in tome to make it a power book that noone saw???

 

sure a king can get really nice buffs, still nothing great and mostly once per battle. sure eels and sharks arent bad, but they are the same as before but lost huge buffs and sinergies.

 

only thing i could see being better are thralls, getting 5++ in some cases, being able to fight 2 times in some cases etc cant think on anything besides that better than on old tome ( that wasnt a top tome)

[JackStreicher]

The thing that is significantly better: The Rituals and Namarti.

that‘s it

[DocKeule]

Depends on how far we are looking back.

The "Fury..." box is only a few weeks old and the Thrall overhaul was big. The anti-shooting ritual is good and so is the generic king's ability. But if we are honest that is one extra activation in melee in one turn on average. Still nice to have but in most cases no game changer. (Ironjaws do that every time they kill something and another of their units in 12" has not fought yet.)

The 5+ ward on the Isharann heroes is nice...kind of... but they haven't been played much so far and apart from the Tidecaster and maybe an occasional Soulscryer won't see much more action now (especially with the rammed up points). And there are some other shenanigans that are kind of nice but more like little gimmicks. 

On the other hand the most used units got much more expensive while the bottom line on they profiles did change little to none. So there will be less models on the table than before resulating in less output, less bodies on objectives and less board control.

We cannot buff our missile units and mounts any more. The difference between a fully buffed unit of Reavers then a fully buffed unit of reavers now is about -17 %. For the Akhelians the mounts are at least half of their attacks, in some cases considerably more. Those will drop by more than a third from the status quo to the release of the new book on Saturday. 

So if this book now is as strong as some want it to be (and a lot of it sound like self-hypnosis to me) and we will the a new rise for the sushi folks we should have been next to unbeatable for the last couple of month. Which we weren't. We were doing OK and we already had an increasingly hard time with the lastest books (while steamrolling some older armies which is also bad balancing for sure).

So what would be the new thing(s) that make anyone so exited about this book? Believing we are going to be stronger the more deluded our forces get it like believing in homeopathy.

[That Guy]

1 hour ago, Kitsumy said:

at best heavy namarti lists will be around the same power as any build we had before tome. every enclave lost every pasive. every aura/buff was nerfed to not affect ranged and/or not affect mounts. turtle is worse, ishlaen is worse tanking( his role), eidolons are worse.. so whats better in tome to make it a power book that noone saw???

 

sure a king can get really nice buffs, still nothing great and mostly once per battle. sure eels and sharks arent bad, but they are the same as before but lost huge buffs and sinergies.

Yeah... i do feel both of you about the nerfs. Ethereal on Ishlaen is just a straight downgrade to ignoring rend, on top of the other nerfs. The buff in killyness is nice and they did need that a bit, but you take them for the defense, which got a big hit. Although i think they still can do their job against high rend armies, since ethereal will still be a solid 3+ on the charge. The price hike is mostly what makes these changes leave us with a salty after taste. Do like the Morssarr on the charge somewhat though. Actually the thing i'm mostly salty about is the Allopex nerf from 10W to 8W. They've changed in the Broken Realms book than just recently in the Fury of the Deep box set they got the 10W and now they go back to 8W for the same cost? Now I understand if you play mixed forces with the turtle included, that they can benefit from the void drum once more, but here's the thing. If that turtle gained 120P and technically became less killy, why can't that void drum just affect 10W models? In the entire book the only units above 8W are the Eidolons and the Turtle. Even if they made this change, it literally would only affect Allopexes at 10W and it would've made the point cost for the turtle slightly.... more worth, but no. Instead straight up nerf there too. It just makes me frustrated that they do this right after the Fury of the Deep box. I can now burn that warscroll card basically. I do believe our characters are plenty gimmicky to outplay our opponents, in the way that Nighthaunt sometimes outplayed opponents, but us with more viable units.I feel like shifting towards allies now for my monster inclusions, and people here already mentioned, those don't benefit from the horrors battle trait. Although they are also not 500P and force you to play namarti to benefit from all the abilities. Right now it just doesn't feel good to include a Leviadon in a non namarti build. Not saying i'm not excited to run namarti lists after all this time and the book definitely massively supports them the most. You know it's bad when even Nautilar fans only want to put down 1 Leviadon, because it just costs too much and doesn't do enough on it's own. You are forced to use it as an aura piece and maximize on a mixed force. It is bad when you have to look left and right for other peoples monster options because they are just cheaper and work better for what you are trying to achieve. A lot is just too overcosted and mark my words, we will get price reductions on some of them in the next balance scroll. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by That Guy

[Orbei]

3 hours ago, Kitsumy said:

at best heavy namarti lists will be around the same power as any build we had before tome. every enclave lost every pasive. every aura/buff was nerfed to not affect ranged and/or not affect mounts. turtle is worse, ishlaen is worse tanking( his role), eidolons are worse.. so whats better in tome to make it a power book that noone saw???

Namarti. The answer is namarti. They are so much better it's crazy. We knew they would be good with the box set but the tome cranks them up a notch further. Their ceiling is much higher than any pre-tome options, IMHO. I mean, combined arms builds or shark lists could be solid 3/5 lists with the potential for a lucky 4/5 or unlucky 2/5. But I think the Namarti list has serious gas and will win tournaments. It isn't comparable at all to anything we had before. This is a whole new beast. You can't beat it with shooting, it buffs like crazy, is pretty hard to crack, and can do ironjawz buzzsaw level carnage. I think it has some counters but boy does it look strong.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Orbei

[vinnyt]

4 hours ago, DocKeule said:

pretty much everything being nerfed?

because I don't agree that pretty much everything has been nerfed. 

 

3 hours ago, Kitsumy said:

hats better in tome to make it a power book that noone saw

namarti, sharks, king, ionrach, unstoppable fury, juiced rituals, etc, etc. Also I gotta say that the discourse on this site does not reflect what's being discussed in the deepkin discord groups. For some reason y'all are real doom and gloom.

 

2 hours ago, DocKeule said:

Believing we are going to be stronger the more deluded our forces get it like believing in homeopathy.

guess we'll see when people who are good at the game start playing them in tournaments. 

 

2 hours ago, That Guy said:

mostly salty about is the Allopex nerf from 10W to 8W

I agree but everyone was real salty (pun intended) when they went up to 10W so this should be a net buff in their eyes. 

 

2 hours ago, That Guy said:

You know it's bad when even Nautilar fans only want to put down 1 Leviadon, because it just costs too much and doesn't do enough on it's own.

If I could do the monstrous action on every turtle in the army, then 2 miiiiight be a decent skew build. But you're totally right- one is optimal imo. 

 

2 hours ago, That Guy said:

eft and right for other peoples monster options

comparing anything to dragons is kinda foolish since they're just insanely good. Only other monster I'd consider taking is a frostheart phoenix.

Edited March 7, 2022 by vinnyt

[Rachmani]

Well, I think one thing that can be said about the book is, that there is not a single warscroll that is bad within itself. Some stuff might not be priced right, but that's about it. Even eels, the apparent "losers" of this book aren't bad per se (or at all). 

(I know that in theory you could just lower the price of a unit to a point where everything becomes good, but I'm talking within reasonable ranges of point corrections here).

So I don't think that doom & gloom is justified. Personally I'm rather positive, apart from coping with 500 point Shelley.

[That Guy]

3 hours ago, Rachmani said:

Well, I think one thing that can be said about the book is, that there is not a single warscroll that is bad within itself. Some stuff might not be priced right, but that's about it. Even eels, the apparent "losers" of this book aren't bad per se (or at all). 

(I know that in theory you could just lower the price of a unit to a point where everything becomes good, but I'm talking within reasonable ranges of point corrections here).

So I don't think that doom & gloom is justified. Personally I'm rather positive, apart from coping with 500 point Shelley.

Oh yeah, definitely. We are talking about nerfs though and how the army performed against other armies before. Right now we have some shenanigans up our sleeves within our hero character abilities, namarti with 2 boats, sharks, rituals and the tides.  This will be our toolbox to figure out in combination with different archetype builds through the sub-factions. Especially the namarti and sharks look to be strong units since the fury of the deep box set. All the other units are also solid units though. It's mostly just that in a net total most of them are toned down on top of being made more expensive, while we were not a top table competing army. It makes people unhappy, that's all. In our situation, for a change, point reductions might actually fix things for once.

Edited March 8, 2022 by That Guy

[Kitsumy]

yes noone is doom & gloom. but is obvious everything besides thralls are worse in tome.yes even shark and reavers and worse. none saying sky is falling army is useless sell ur army!, but the army went down some points for sure.

per example how are sharks better in new tome?? they have the same scroll( wound is a buff if use turtle or nerf without one). it lost reroll1s to hit( dom hain or king),+1wound( eidolon) both in melee and shoting.  

on new tome it only retain rr 1s to hit only in melee only riders, and +1wound again only into melee.

same can be aplied to every unit but thralls.

the guys i cant understand are one one who thinks idk were the absolute best army, and the tome made them even better!! lol

 

even if every warscroll and points would be the same the total removal of enclaves passives,and massive nerfs in auras would be a  global nerf in army power. bigger than being inmune to shotting in t1.

now sum up the huge increase in points.

 

if every aura change to affect melee and shotting, and not exclude mounts with decresse in points in every hero and turtle i would say it is a good tome.

 

and thralls arent so amazing neither. grave guard is better for only 10p more, and they can have plus 300 atks, atack 2 times, revive every turn, and even revive half unit if wiped out. with smaller base, only loose in 2 less move. and i dont see soulblight stomping every tourney with them

Edited March 8, 2022 by Kitsumy

[Orbei]

4 hours ago, vinnyt said:

I agree but everyone was real salty (pun intended) when they went up to 10W so this should be a net buff in their eyes. 

You're  not really understanding the complaint here. A warscroll and points is the sum of all it parts. Movement, damage, defense, etc. At the time they increased the wounds and ranged output of the shark while increasing the points by 35%. The damage output is essentially a wash per point. The change to 10 wounds was disappointing at the time because they were less wounds per point than before and no longer benefited from the the turtle aura. Some people didn't think it was a good trade for the increased cost. A bad deal for what we were paying.

Now with the reversion it is exactly as survivable as when it cost 125 points. So now the unit is less survivable per point than the old version and we are paying the extra points only for the champion and the increased ranged output. However you shake it this is a downgrade.

[Frowny]

Something like a king, a turtle, lotaan and the little wizard + 30x2 thralls,10 thralls and 10 x 2 reavers would be quite good i think. Or you could do 2x20.  And that's quite a lot of build diversity with several different units. Possibly in Dom Hein for the out of phase charge+attack again, which is a very very strong ability. I think thralls will be very very strong. Someone compared them to graveyard but that isnt fair- they can fight first consistently on command which is a bonkers good ability.

I agree that eels don't seem great, but i think there is probably also play to a multil shark list as well, since they carry buffs so well.

King, turtle, little wizard, 3x2 sharks and then a unit of thralls also seems good. Nice targets for all out defence and attack if needed and a ton of shooting. That gives you 32 shots at 3+/3+/-1 d3 damage. Nothing to joke about and let's you pick off targets before going for the t3 alpha.

[Skreech Verminking]

9 hours ago, vinnyt said:

guess we'll see when people who are good at the game start playing them in tournaments. 

If people are truly good in this game, they would be playing skaven, to give themselves a challenge.

just saying 

[Jacknife]

10 hours ago, vinnyt said:

Also I gotta say that the discourse on this site does not reflect what's being discussed in the deepkin discord groups.

Would you mind pm me the idoneth discord group invitation please ?

I am considering playing eidolon of the sea in a full allopex list. This guy seems good to me with the heal and -1 save. With a king you can have your sharks getting High tide in turn 2 / rend -3 wich seems strong.

New books looks very interresting to me. You need to learn a new way to play the game and especially the multiples tricks with tides & rituals. We will always be glasscanon and be very precise in the chose we make. 

[Rachmani]

7 hours ago, That Guy said:

Oh yeah, definitely. We are talking about nerfs though and how the army performed against other armies before. Right now we have some shenanigans up our sleeves within our hero character abilities, namarti with 2 boats, sharks, rituals and the tides.  This will be our toolbox to figure out in combination with different archetype builds through the sub-factions. Especially the namarti and sharks look to be strong units since the fury of the deep box set. All the other units are also solid units though. It's mostly just that in a net total most of them are toned down on top of being made more expensive, while we were not a top table competing army. It makes people unhappy, that's all. In our situation, for a change, point reductions might actually fix things for once.

I agree. Just got a vibe that gradually turned away from the "curious" and towards the "negative" so I wanted to gently remind all of us (including myself!) that the book actually looks pretty well written. Points can be fixed, Slaangor probably can't (without a rewrite).

[vinnyt]

5 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

If people are truly good in this game, they would be playing skaven, to give themselves a challenge.

just saying 

Don't worry, it seems like Skaven are up to get the summer chaos book! I've been playing mostly rattos while waiting for the deepkin book to come out and lemme tell ya, the difference between the books is night and day. Skaven are gonna struggle mightily to deal with the new deepkin, but what else is new haha. 

 

Here are 4 "shells" that I think reflect the various archetypes well and that I think could be solid STARTING points to look at the new deepkin. Some of these are for sure more competitive than others and I'm gonna bold my favorite one. If you're relatively new and just trying to throw some stuff on the table at 2k, I think these lists are pretty solid out of the gate. Everything is in battle regiment and a one drop except for the Namarti list which is a two drop

List 1: The Turtening

Nautilar Enclave

Aspect of the Sea general w/ endless sea storm and countercurrent

Akhelian King with polearm, voidchill darkness, and potion of hateful frenzy

 

Leviadon with Ancient

Leviadon

20 Reavers

 

Lifeswarm

 

1975 points

List 2: Namarti

Dhom-Hain enclave

Akhelian King general with voidchill darkness, unstoppable frenzy, polearm, and potion of hate

Thrallmaster

Tidecaster with countercurrent

Lotann

 

20 Thralls

20 Thralls

20 Reavers

 

Leviadon with Ancient 

 

1985 points

List 3: Feeding Frenzy

Fuethan Enclave

Akhelian king with polearm, potion of fury, and voidchill darkness

Tidecaster general with tide reversal and countercurrent

Lotann (he's gonna be running as fast as he can)

 

3 Allopex with Harpoon

3 Allopex with Harpoon

Allopex with net (shiver)

Allopex with net (shiver)

Allopex with harpoon (shiver)

 

2000 points on the nose! 

List 4: Combined Arms 

Nautilar Enclave:

Akhelian King general with unstoppable fury, polearm, and voidchill darkness

Tidecaster with gloomtide and countercurrent

 

10 Reavers

20 Thralls

Leviadon with ancient

 

2 Allopex with Harpoon

2 Allopex with Harpoon (you can make this unit 2 dragons if you want/own the models)

 

1990 points

 

Annnnnd now for some quick numbers.

Regular unbuffed tortle in combat vs non-monster: 6.52/9/11.5/14/15.9

Jacked nautilar chad turtle in combat vs non-monster: 10.04/12.5/15/15.44/15.9

 

The BLENDER King: This guy is a real sleeper hit that's gonna punk people sooooo bad:

Akhelian king general with unstoppable fury, polearm, maaaybe potion of hateful frenzy but you don't really need it. All numbers will be calculated as though he had the potion for maximum blendage and is by one unit.

10.22/13.75/17.28/18.7/20.2.

So, one of the many, many combos in this book is to chuck this fella and a turtle into any target you so choose, pop the king's command ability, roll a 1 because of course you will, target the ability on himself, and then do a casual King asf followed by normal turtle activation to kill kragnos/basically one shot a mega assuming you shot at it a little earlier. 

As is tradition for the deepkin, I believe you really wanna bully people by sending in multiple units at once- the two hammer theory. Now, with a blender king, you can also guarantee that BOTH the hammers get to fight first. This is truly wild and leads to some absurd damage output. 

Another thing that may keep morrsarr more relevant than people might think is that they're one of the few units that unconditionally benefit from the New Eidolon of the Storm and the Akhelian King aura, meaning you can get them hitting and wounding on 2s without any sort of CP or triumph investment. Is this gonna be enough to make them competitive? Maybe? I'm not really sure, tbh. All I can tell you is that on the charge, near a king and the eidolon, and without using their blasts, they're gonna do 7.53/10.48/13.4/16.4/17.7 damage which seems like a lot for 195 points that you can take multiple of as battleline, make asf with the king command trait, and then use ionrach to give them retreat and charge as a heroic action. We all know their unbuffed stats because they didn't change so no need to repeat that here.

But I hear ya, you're saying "vinny, why don't you talk about sharks, you filthy shark apologist?" Well ok here we go. Unit of 2 unbuffed sharks (outside the champion) in combat with the bonus bite: 5.44/7.6/9.7/11.9/12.9 and at range: 2.4/3.6/4.7/5.9/7.11 (not using all out attack or anything). This looks awfully similar to numbers I've posted in the past so no need to rehash it since their offensive profiles didn't change.

This is actually pretty darn good considering their relative tankiness and ability to just chill in combat and not have to worry about things like charging. And being able to shoot 5 wound, 5+ save wizards to death from 24" always brings a smile to my face. 

Thralls are a special case because they're special boys (and girls!). They're tanky little rascals when near a turtle and thrallmaster, that lose about 11-12 on turn 1 to an unwounded gatebreaker with aoa who roared them. Then the 9 remaining smack him back for about 14 wounds. God forbid you actually charge the gargant/any target because the damage is comically high. Oh, then you can get the free* charge in dhom hain and do it all again. Good thing a unit of 20 costs an astronomically high 260 points or I'd be worried the book might have something actually competitive here. Oh, and they get a nice 5+ ward if they're by an unthreatened boat. So... yeah you might see some of these around.

We already know that reavers go brrrrt so no need to bonk that dead horse. They can garrison up all cozy in a boat if you want them to be much much tankier. Plus now you can chuck a boat on the board at the end of your first movement phase (with an artifact) if you want your reavers to have an even better home. 

Lotann is insanely good and you'll want to buy him immediately. They gave him the old storm aura which means he turns sharks into absolute blenders. You just gotta run him real fast up the board to keep them within 12". Oh also his ability to activate a tide ritual for a single unit is wild. You can just give thralls a flat 5+ ward no questions asked. 

I think this is probably a long enough post at this point, and I'm sure many of the expert players here have already run these numbers and know all about these builds, but if you're looking at getting into/returning to deepkin and thinking about how to build a list and what unit options may be useful, I hope this proved helpful. 

Edited March 8, 2022 by vinnyt
grammar

[Skreech Verminking]

3 minutes ago, vinnyt said:

Don't worry, it seems like Skaven are up to get the summer chaos book! I've been playing mostly rattos while waiting for the deepkin book to come out and lemme tell ya, the difference between the books is night and day. Skaven are gonna struggle mightily to deal with the new deepkin, but what else is new haha. 

Well We are already struggling when fighting the not yet updated deepkins.

So I really doubt that the booklet will change too much when facing the skaven.

I guess the only difference being less eels and leviathan then before

[Jacknife]

I like your LIST 3 proposition and i that is what my first trys will look like. But i prefer to make test with less allopex and Eidolon of the sea instead of the tidecaster.

My main concern is about Lotann move. Our little boy will have to follow up the sharks. You can also include the spell to teleport him but in that case you have to let down Contercurrent...

[Kitsumy]

again, noone  saying we are  garbagge unplayable. everyone claimming this book is worse than we were. pretty obvious since everything is the same or worse on new book and we lost every enclave and aura.

 

only king, lothan and thralls are better. overall will that build be even stronger than previous one? who knows maybe, but the sure thing is internal balance is far worse than on previous book where we could use any unit at roughly same power.

 

per example explain me how sharks are better now? i know they are good, but im asking u how are they better in new book?

same stats, lost rerolling 1s to hit in everything to only +1( that can be get with cp) only to raider and only in melee. lost +1 to wound in everything for only raiders in melee( eidolon) or only in melee if u can follow them with lothan.

 

so i wont do the maths, but on a fast glimpse they lost like 20-25% dmg only for those enclaves auras nerfs, without any buff to make up.( noone will run eidolon anymore. and lotan wont keep ut with mounted units).

 

and same is aplied to every unit in book besides thralls, even reavers lost like 10-13% dmg with the removal of wound aura.

 

and if im not mistaken cant run and charge anymore in reversetide.

 

so only won rituals, and they arent amazing neither besides the semi inmune to shotting or the 5++ to namarti, and some abilitys to play with them.

or thralls being able to charge and fight in rare ocassions, that isnt so good since they will be atacked first for the unit charged so trhalls will be dead before figthing unless they charge a ranged unit or be on high tide.

 

in summary every mounted unit lost like 20% dmg in new book for the pasives lost/nerfed, and even reavers lost dmg could u elaborate how im totally wrong and everything got better now?

and thats not counting the increase in points since that can change any faq and i dont mind.