AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion

[woolf]

fully expecting them to hold on to release until the new book pricing kicks in so we should get pre-order Mar 12th...

[Rhetoric]

I played a game versus SCE Annihilator heavy build to test some of the new scrolls that were updated in Fury of the Deep.  And I have to say the MVP were the two units of Thralls, list below.  
 

Fuethan

Tidecaster - General, Master of Magic, Steed of Tides

Eidolon of the Storm - Arcane Tome, Flaming Weapon

 

10 Thralls 

10 Thralls 

10 Reavers

3 Ishlaen 

3 Morrsarr 

2 Allopex

Leviadon

 

First Blood

 

he takes top of one, moves his whole army toward the center and drops one unit of annihilators to the bottom right objective. In my turn I get mystic shield and flaming weapon up on my Eidolon and move up in a loose castle, pushing the reavers to my top left objective.  He wins priority and throws Stormdrake Guard into my Ishlaen screen and drops two units of annihilators near the top right objective, and makes one charge of annihilators into my eidolon.  The SDG kill the Ishlaen after spiking MW shots.  Eidolon fails one save, piles in and whiffs on all 2’s.  Thralls pile in and wipe the annihilators!  Huge difference with 2” reach.  
 

in my turn 2, i get the Morrsarr/Allopex in position to charge and kill a unit of shield annihilators on the bottom right objective.  The turtle, Thralls, and Eidolon go in on the SDG and wipe them, and the Reavers managed to plink off an annihilator that failed their charge in the top of 2.  I get my Aggresive Expansion off the outer objectives and have killed the SDG and annihilators.

 

he wins prio again but gives me the turn and burns the bottom right objective.  which I call broken ranks on a unit of Retirbutors, by his turn he’s got his Knight-Imperatant and Praetors left in the center.  The Eidolon, Thralls, Leviadon, and Allopex were each putting out 8-12 wounds a piece in each combat.  Five Thralls managed to merk a Knight Judicator on their own, 2” reach is a MASSIVE change.  As long as Thralls can make it in combat, when they are hitting on 2’s and 2’s they are Stormcast murderers. 
 

Thralls and Allopexes impressed me, I did not run the Thrallmaster, but in a list like this, I think he’d be useful.  Reavers were interesting, I was using their decent shooting to bait all out defense so I could then change targets and snipe with Allopexes, D3 damage is nice off the harpoons, but I was rolling a lot of 1’s on the D3. 
 

He conceded after my T3 and it was an absolute blowout.  Every unit was a hammer, the only disappointment was the Morrsarr since AoA was getting used by the Eidolon.  
 

overall, I loved the feel of the list, playing with mostly different lists feels a lot better than Eel spam.  

 

 

[DocKeule]

44 minutes ago, Rhetoric said:

I did not run the Thrallmaster, but in a list like this, I think he’d be useful.

I think 2x10 Thralls is too little to give you a good return on the Thrallmaster. You would run a 110 point hero to support only 260 points. With only 20 point more you could have a third block of Thralls.

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

*Jaws theme intensifies*

[Siorra]

53 minutes ago, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

*Jaws theme intensifies*

I don't think these articles are having the intended effect. They should be creating hype, except each one I read instils dread that they're removing some key components that make Idoneth as good as they are - like Fuethan's retreat and charge being replaced by run and charge. Obviously this is not confirmed at all. But the drip-feed ain't doing it for me.

Gimme the damn tome!

[That Guy]

1 hour ago, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

*Jaws theme intensifies*

It was expected, but this confirmed it! My dedication to Feuthán will stay. 6 Shark lists incoming. Woooo- wee!

Edited February 21, 2022 by That Guy

[Cataphract]

Speaking of the price hike. Should I get an Eidolon and another Leviadon now just in case?

[Sonnenspeer]

 

2 minutes ago, Cataphract said:

Speaking of the price hike. Should I get an Eidolon and another Leviadon now just in case?

Yes!! And several sharks! 😅

[Cataphract]

2 minutes ago, Sonnenspeer said:

 

Yes!! And several sharks! 😅

Already got four Sharks so I think I’m good on that front.

[Sonnenspeer]

To be serious, we don't know the new rules nor the points. But it looks like everything gets more point expensive. So it will probably be hard to have a good list with two turtles an an Eidolon. 

[DocKeule]

1 hour ago, Siorra said:

I don't think these articles are having the intended effect. They should be creating hype, except each one I read instils dread that they're removing some key components that make Idoneth as good as they are - like Fuethan's retreat and charge being replaced by run and charge. Obviously this is not confirmed at all. But the drip-feed ain't doing it for me.

Gimme the damn tome!

Indeed. But I would hold any purchases at this point.

Again this is interesting because there would be no need to reserve points for additional battleline. So far that looks like the biggest plus to me that the new book will allow very different lists.

The Fuethan shark ability is probably a lot weaker that in looks at first glance though. If the article is right that the formation has to consist of three single sharks only one model could benefit from the exploding sixes. Still nice but no game changer. 

But I am getting increasingly optimistic for the new battletome.

[Cataphract]

1 hour ago, Sonnenspeer said:

To be serious, we don't know the new rules nor the points. But it looks like everything gets more point expensive. So it will probably be hard to have a good list with two turtles an an Eidolon. 

Though I think I should still get the Eidolon since I don’t have one at all.

[madmac]

33 minutes ago, DocKeule said:

Indeed. But I would hold any purchases at this point.

Again this is interesting because there would be no need to reserve points for additional battleline. So far that looks like the biggest plus to me that the new book will allow very different lists.

The Fuethan shark ability is probably a lot weaker that in looks at first glance though. If the article is right that the formation has to consist of three single sharks only one model could benefit from the exploding sixes. Still nice but no game changer. 

But I am getting increasingly optimistic for the new battletome.

The actual ability is a buff so small it could not exist and it wouldn't matter. You're jumping through hoops to get possible exploding sixes on three  2 dam attacks on one model. It's basically +1 damage under optimal conditions. The default champion +1 to hit ability is actually more effective on average.

Still, doesn't mean IDK as a whole are necessarily doomed, most of the changes we've seen so far are good, or at least sideways shifts. It's a little worrying that a rule that bad gets picked for a highlight article, but that's GW for you...

[Rhetoric]

The Bloodthirsty Shiver rule isn’t as enticing as the Allopex Alpha hitting on 2’s while re-rolling 1’s  to hit in Flood Tide in Fuethan right now while getting rerolling ones to wound on the bites all the time. Just need to see the new tome at this point. 

[That Guy]

1 hour ago, madmac said:

The actual ability is a buff so small it could not exist and it wouldn't matter. You're jumping through hoops to get possible exploding sixes on three  2 dam attacks on one model. It's basically +1 damage under optimal conditions. The default champion +1 to hit ability is actually more effective on average.

Still, doesn't mean IDK as a whole are necessarily doomed, most of the changes we've seen so far are good, or at least sideways shifts. It's a little worrying that a rule that bad gets picked for a highlight article, but that's GW for you...

It's a bit rough. 1 Shiver can fill up your battleline but than again... you probably want more sharks anyways, but it's interesting. 
Another thing is that running a shiver allows you to still get benefits for 1 shark, while running them as solo units. Solo units allow you to balance the weapon loadout. I would probably run 1 net per Shiver,  or 1 net in total. What's interesting about the shiver is that it allows you to get +2A if one of the sharks is 3" within another shark of their shiver, but +1A if they are not. The shiver allows you to be flexible with your positioning. You can have a shark all the way at the other side of the board and 2 close to each other. It gives you the flexibility to adapt to enemy positioning and hunt them down. 1 of them can rush ahead into a flank and shoot a net into a unit, while charging a hero for example, while the other 2 charge the netted unit, activate the Shiver ability and possibly get a few extra attacks. They could even target 2 closeby units, since all they have to be is close to each other. There is an arguement to be made about just having a unit of 2 sharks and a single shark though. At least it's an option. In case you have to divide, you can pull them all apart from each other. While in a unit you have to stay within 3" for coherency. 

[madmac]

6 minutes ago, That Guy said:

It's a bit rough. 1 Shiver can fill up your battleline but than again... you probably want more sharks anyways, but it's interesting. 
Another thing is that running a shiver allows you to still get benefits for 1 shark, while running them as solo units. Solo units allow you to balance the weapon loadout. I would probably run 1 net per Shiver,  or 1 net in total. What's interesting about the shiver is that it allows you to get +2A if one of the sharks is 3" within another shark of their shiver, but +1A if they are not. The shiver allows you to be flexible with your positioning. You can have a shark all the way at the other side of the board and 2 close to each other. It gives you the flexibility to adapt to enemy positioning and hunt them down. 1 of them can rush ahead into a flank and shoot a net into a unit, while charging a hero for example, while the other 2 charge the netted unit, activate the Shiver ability and possibly get a few extra attacks. They could even target 2 closeby units, since all they have to be is close to each other. There is an arguement to be made about just having a unit of 2 sharks and a single shark though. At least it's an option. In case you have to divide, you can pull them all apart from each other. While in a unit you have to stay within 3" for coherency. 

Yeah, the actual benefit of shiver is to run something in between solo sharks and a combined unit, which is a little bit interesting, but...I dunno. You could say you're gaining flexibility, but you always had the option to run solo sharks. This is just running solo sharks with the chance at a very small conditional buff.

[That Guy]

2 minutes ago, madmac said:

Yeah, the actual benefit of shiver is to run something in between solo sharks and a combined unit, which is a little bit interesting, but...I dunno. You could say you're gaining flexibility, but you always had the option to run solo sharks. This is just running solo sharks with the chance at a very small conditional buff.

You always get the buff on 1 of the sharks. It's about making it the most efficient. Obviously you want to get the 2A, so in that case you can say it's conditional. But don't forget, if you would for some reason have to divide and conquer, you can do so and still benefit from +1A on 6's on 1 of the sharks. 

[DocKeule]

The main advantage of bigger shark units is that they can all fight at the same time before the opponent can fight back. If it is really mandatory to take three single models I probably won't use that rule too often.

[Liquidsteel]

I can't see it being mandatory, just an option available. 

Either way, if Fuethan retain the ebb tide = flood tide trait and the tidecaster gets her ability without needing to be the general, having msu will be alleviated by striking first turn 2.

[vinnyt]

Other thing to consider is that a named formation might include a discount like the Rotbringer Coven or whatever in Nurgle.

3 single battleline sharks for like 140 each instead of 165 would be a very interesting wrinkle depending on how the rest of the units are pointed. 

[DocKeule]

12 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

I can't see it being mandatory, just an option available. 

Mandatory for using this formation as the WarCom article implies.

 

11 hours ago, vinnyt said:

Other thing to consider is that a named formation might include a discount like the Rotbringer Coven or whatever in Nurgle.

3 single battleline sharks for like 140 each instead of 165 would be a very interesting wrinkle depending on how the rest of the units are pointed. 

Not impossible but there is nothing to base that hope on yet. That would have been something to mention in a hype article.

[Liquidsteel]

27 minutes ago, DocKeule said:

Mandatory for using this formation as the WarCom article implies.

Can you point me to where it implies that it's mandatory?

The rule uses the word "can" not "must", so does the text in the body of the article.

It does say "these Allopexes are individual units", but that sentence follows the one about being able to, not having to, take the Allopexes in a Merciless Shiver.

 

Edit: Think we might have misunderstood each other, I'm talking about the Shiver itself not being mandatory.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Liquidsteel

[DocKeule]

Quote

Fuethán Allopexes are particularly known for their aggressive skill when hunting in groups – as such, you can also can take three units of single Allopexes in a special formation known as a Bloodthirsty Shiver

At least I would interpret it that way.

[DocKeule]

30 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

Edit: Think we might have misunderstood each other, I'm talking about the Shiver itself not being mandatory.

Yes sure the formation won't be mandatory to use but if we want to use it the way In read the article it has to be three single sharks.

And with four bites at best there is a chance to roll a six but it is far from guaranteed.

[Liquidsteel]

57 minutes ago, DocKeule said:

Yes sure the formation won't be mandatory to use but if we want to use it the way In read the article it has to be three single sharks.

And with four bites at best there is a chance to roll a six but it is far from guaranteed.

Agreed, it's a small chance for not that much extra damage.

I suppose best case is 5 bites if you have a King/Volty nearby, assuming there aren't some additional methods on top of that for generating attacks yet to be seen.

More than likely getting +1 attack or +1 to hit on a bigger unit of 2-3 (that you have placed either in Hunters and/or Battle Regiment for a 1 drop) will be a better investment, but we'll see.

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Liquidsteel