AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion

[That Guy]

On 2/13/2022 at 8:06 PM, DocKeule said:

Got my feet wet a little with a more Namarti focused build at a tournament today. Can't say that it went too well though.

My list:

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Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
Enclave: Dhom-Hain
Grand Strategy: Beast Master
Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

Leaders
Eidolon of Mathlann, Aspect of the Storm (330)*
- General
- Command Trait: Born From Agony
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Deeps: Tide of Fear
Lotann, Warden of the Soul Ledgers (75)*

Battleline
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)*
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)*
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)*

Units
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)** - Razorshell Harpoon - Reinforced x 1
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (155)**
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (155)**
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (155)*

Behemoths Akhelian Leviadon (380)*
- Mount Trait: Ancient

Endless Spells & Invocations
The Burning Head (20)

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Hunters of the Heartlands

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 119
Drops: 4

First match was against SCE and it went OK. But I had a hard time killing anything (between cover, mystic shield and allout defense he had a 2+ save most of the time). And I took a lot of mortal wounds. In The end I lost 25:18 because auf missing one tactic, my strategy, having to monster to kill. Thralls did next to nothing.

Second Match was against Gravelords with Nagash and Manfred. I threw the towel by the end of round 3. Again Thralls did very little. I tried to go to Nagash but the war to little space for the sharks, Eidolon and turtle so Stormy did not go in at first and Nagash healed as much as I was doing damage.

Third match against Orruks with two Mawcrushers and pigriders. Here the Thralls did a good job killing a lot of pigs. I made a huge mistake charging the Eidolon into one of the Mawcrushers where he did like three wounds and was whiped out. Buteven if I would have still had him I don't think the outcome would have been that much different. I was tabled at the end of the fourt MWs just on the montrous rampage. And their speed even beats us. 


Oh well...
Thralls can do something but you desperately need them to strike first (apart from getting into the right engagement). If they don't they are pretty much doomed. So unless it is high tide you don't really want more than one Thrall unit in melee. 

Eidolon of the Storm once again war a great support hero but other than that in my experience he just sucks and I had that happen to me again and again. His stats look good on paper but again an HQ unit be barely does a few wounds. I do consider swapping him for another unit of two sharks (especially with the new shooting profile).

At least running Dhom Hain Lotann was pretty redundant. I could re-roll 1s to hit on the charge any way and (again) if the Thralls didn't charge and attack first there was not much left to hit with. Also keeping several units in his 12" bubble isn't easy  especially if a unit charges). 
You could try to build a Namarti glass-deathstar but that would be very stationary and I guess you would burn through those Namarti in few turns. So meh.

With a mixed list like that ideally I would want to stall the opponent with the Ishlaen and pin them down, have the Thralls charge in and delete the target and then repeat. Problem is the Thralls often won't reach the units they would want to fight.


Well no announcements for the battletome to go into pre-order on saturday. Next event I am going to attend will be in six weeks. Maybe until then we will know more. My instinct right now is to go back to mainly unsing Akhelians again.

That’s rough to hear bud. I will still continue building a lot of namarti since i still have hope somewhere with thrallmasters. Perhaps going full on Namarti isn’t the way to go and they do need some ishlaen screening. I think it’s also very matchup dependant. Stormcast and Ironjawz just have very solid average output, which is exactly what kills us. i wonder how a few reavers and some sharks combined would do in there. With the tome coming up perhaps our killer eels will be an option again as well. I also have my hopes up for a solid revamped gloomtide ship. If the beastmen herdstone says anything, it could be a very positive change. Like you said, just chill with the eels till the new book drops for now, it’s clearly your comfort pick.

[DocKeule]

Deepstriking Thralls could also be an interesting concept to get them to the targets you want them to hit. But then you also want the supporting heroes to go with them plus you need to find the points for the Soulscryer(s) as well. 

Only thing I am pretty sure of now is that charging multiple units of Thralls into the opponent's line head on at the same time does not work.

 

[JackStreicher]

22 minutes ago, DocKeule said:

Deepstriking Thralls could also be an interesting concept to get them to the targets you want them to hit. But then you also want the supporting heroes to go with them plus you need to find the points for the Soulscryer(s) as well. 

Only thing I am pretty sure of now is that charging multiple units of Thralls into the opponent's line head on at the same time does not work.

 

I tried it: Yup does not work. Could work if you wait until turn 3 though.
The Thralls simpy can't take any retaliation, they die in the dozens. Getting them all including the Thrallmaster in is also quite a hassle (placing models in range of the table's edge and the priest etc. takes ages).

It might be way more effective to simply DS Reavers and shoot anything you are in range with off the board.
 

[GrimDork]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/15/the-new-idoneth-battletome-brings-extra-beefy-leviadons-to-the-battleline/

was not expecting to see Leviadons as battleline!

I wonder if there will be a way of doing it for Allopexes? Probably be more useful than turtles.

[JackStreicher]

To get more precise: my Namarti also did very Little to Rat ogres 🥲. -1 rend simply doesn’t cut it anymore nowadays. You either get an I same amount of attacks, rend or MWs. In any other case save stacking has made normal damage obsolete.

[DocKeule]

1 hour ago, GrimDork said:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/15/the-new-idoneth-battletome-brings-extra-beefy-leviadons-to-the-battleline/

was not expecting to see Leviadons as battleline!

I wonder if there will be a way of doing it for Allopexes? Probably be more useful than turtles.

I am pretty certain that will be the case. The wording on the new Allopex warscroll only makes sense if a shark unit can have more than two models. For that they would have to be battleline to be reinforced twice. (Or they do something stupid to counter their own new rule like they did with the dragons for SCE). 

Well this could be interesting. I have tried double turtle before and was pretty happy. Here you would only have to run one eel unit and had your battleline requirements fulfilled. 

Them talking about "more teasers in the upcoming weeks" dampens my hopes for a quick release though. 

 

3 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

I tried it: Yup does not work. Could work if you wait until turn 3 though.
The Thralls simpy can't take any retaliation, they die in the dozens. Getting them all including the Thrallmaster in is also quite a hassle (placing models in range of the table's edge and the priest etc. takes ages).

It might be way more effective to simply DS Reavers and shoot anything you are in range with off the board.
 

58 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

To get more precise: my Namarti also did very Little to Rat ogres 🥲. -1 rend simply doesn’t cut it anymore nowadays. You either get an I same amount of attacks, rend or MWs. In any other case save stacking has made normal damage obsolete.

Not sure about the second part. I have completely deleted units of Gore Gruntas in one swoop last sunday. So with that alone the Thralls have paid for their points. If you have the enemy in the Void Drum bubble and have an Eidolon of the Storm it is 20 Attacks, 2+ (re-rollable) 2+and in that case two damage each. That's nothing to sneeze at.

But I get your point though. I had a lot of fights in that tournament where I faced a 2+ save even with rend. And that is why cadence is probaply better that few high rend attacks right now.

Edited February 15, 2022 by DocKeule

[That Guy]

Hold up. How many turtles do you say I am supposed to have? Guys. 
Hold the Line - Battleline Leviadons.

They are monsters too, having 3 makes any battle tactic bonus VP easy to achieve especially since they are this killy. You can't stop a monstrous action if you don't get picked either, their monstrous action targets themselves, so... bye bye hunters of the heartlands. This is brutal in many ways. Still more excited for battleline sharks though. Please Fuethán don't let me down now. Also with the sharks 3" coherency rule, running units of 3 is not bad, but for efficiency i'd rather run 3 units of 2 in order to get 3 champions and fill out battleline completely with sharks. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by That Guy

[Drofnum]

My concern with turtles now is that they said you could cram 3 into an army. Which means they're probably going to 500+ points, makes list building much tighter which already seems like a problem.

Battleline sharks could be cool but then I feel like we just shift from the old Morrsarr meta to a shark meta.

[DocKeule]

33 minutes ago, That Guy said:

Hold up. How many turtles do you say I am supposed to have? Guys. 
Hold the Line - Battleline Leviadons.

They are monsters too, having 3 makes any battle tactic bonus VP easy to achieve especially since they are this killy. You can't stop a monstrous action if you don't get picked either, their monstrous action targets themselves, so... bye bye hunters of the heartlands. This is brutal in many ways. Still more excited for battleline sharks though. Please Fuethán don't let me down now. Also with the sharks 3" coherency rule, running units of 3 is not bad, but for efficiency i'd rather run 3 units of 2 in order to get 3 champions and fill out battleline completely with sharks. 

"Problem" with two sharks is that it is sometimes not enough to take out the really big targets in one turn. But we will see.

 

 

18 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

My concern with turtles now is that they said you could cram 3 into an army. Which means they're probably going to 500+ points, makes list building much tighter which already seems like a problem.

Battleline sharks could be cool but then I feel like we just shift from the old Morrsarr meta to a shark meta.

The wording is a little suspicious I agree. A hefty point increase could kill the whole thing dead on arrival. A second turtle is already a grey area as far as point efficiency goes. Raising the points by almost a third would make it a no go at least competitively.

Edited February 15, 2022 by DocKeule

[That Guy]

16 minutes ago, DocKeule said:

"Problem" with two sharks is that it is sometimes not enough to take out the really big targets in one turn. But we will see.

I agree, but they are also very beefy now. Much like dragons.

16 minutes ago, DocKeule said:

The wording is a little suspicious I agree. A hefty point increase could kill the whole thing dead on arrival. A second turtle is already a grey area as far as point efficiency goes. Raising the points by almost a third would make it a no go at least competitively.

If they up the pricing, we could expect a serious adjustment in the positive way for its abilities. Give and take in that case. If not. Well... hello other sub-factions. Although they already hype with that sub-faction, first and foremost, I feel it will be a strong way to play the army. Don't forget, with an Akhelian Hero(thrallmaster is cheapest now(cough cough cough)) you can pretty much have 95% of your list be battleline. No one will ever stop your grand strategy. Sadly it will make broken ranks easier to get as well. Opponent calls broken ranks, fail the charge on your namarti/eels? Might as well try taking that battleline turtle down and gain an extra point while they're at it in some battleplans. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by That Guy

[Liquidsteel]

11 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

My concern with turtles now is that they said you could cram 3 into an army. Which means they're probably going to 500+ points, makes list building much tighter which already seems like a problem.

 

Unless it's an image of a rule, don't take anything in the body of the WarCom articles as being 100% fact. For all we know, the writer is not aware that becoming Battleline removes the Behemoth battlefield role.

Furthermore, Eddie Eccles commented on Twitter about his 4 battleline turtles, which contradicts the article.

[Liquidsteel]

14 minutes ago, That Guy said:

 Sadly it will make broken ranks easier to get as well. Opponent calls broken ranks, fail the charge on your namarti/eels? Might as well try taking that battleline turtle down and gain an extra point while they're at it in some battleplans. 

You have to select the unit you intend to destroy for Bring it Down and Broken Ranks, so if your opponent selects the Namarti and fails, he has no other options.

[Drofnum]

10 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

Unless it's an image of a rule, don't take anything in the body of the WarCom articles as being 100% fact. For all we know, the writer is not aware that becoming Battleline removes the Behemoth battlefield role.

Furthermore, Eddie Eccles commented on Twitter about his 4 battleline turtles, which contradicts the article.

Yeah definitely always assume they're wrong. I just dont want to have to trim my lists more than I already have haha

[That Guy]

 

2 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

You have to select the unit you intend to destroy for Bring it Down and Broken Ranks, so if your opponent selects the Namarti and fails, he has no other options.

My bad.

2 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

Unless it's an image of a rule, don't take anything in the body of the WarCom articles as being 100% fact. For all we know, the writer is not aware that becoming Battleline removes the Behemoth battlefield role.

Furthermore, Eddie Eccles commented on Twitter about his 4 battleline turtles, which contradicts the article.

So 4? Let me buy 3 more turtles. That's gonna be some paint work...

Edited February 15, 2022 by That Guy

[Rhetoric]

At least Nautilar has a purpose now haha. 

[Lord Krungharr]

I bet they meant you can fit 3 Leviadons in a 2K list because you still have to have a general, who I think has to be a hero?  So even if Leviadons were like 475, if you put 4 in a list, can you get a hero to be the general for 100 points?  But I think they'll be 500 or a bit over that.  But maybe they'll get a ward save or some other bonus, or increased stats.  I'd strongly consider buying that army, just looks pretty amazing to have 3 flying giant turtles!  And maybe a Seahorse King.  

[DocKeule]

Would be pretty bad on the tabletop though. No board control and too few bodies on the objectives.

I cannot see the turtle going up that high in points. There would have to be a huge boost in stats and/or abilities to justify another 1+/- 120 points.

 

[Liquidsteel]

Yeah I expect it to be around 400 +/-, and I believe that the Harpoon will go to D3 damage, same as the sharks.

[DocKeule]

That I could live with.

Maybe even a little more if they change the void drum to a 6+ ward (or even better have a mount-trait to do that). THEN I could see the 500 points even.

[JackStreicher]

simply a 5+ ward for the lev and the thralls and I'd be happy ;D
Also: Where is my Kraken!?

[DocKeule]

Hanging with Lotann.

[JackStreicher]

11 minutes ago, DocKeule said:

Hanging with Lotann.

I wouldn’t, according to some depictions he does not seem to be a chill guy

*THAT LINE SPACING IS OFF BY .001 mm HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO WORK LIKE THIS?*

[Siorra]

On 2/15/2022 at 6:44 PM, Liquidsteel said:

Unless it's an image of a rule, don't take anything in the body of the WarCom articles as being 100% fact. For all we know, the writer is not aware that becoming Battleline removes the Behemoth battlefield role.

Furthermore, Eddie Eccles commented on Twitter about his 4 battleline turtles, which contradicts the article.

I dug out that Tweet and can confirm it was said, so I'm hopeful this means Leviadons aren't over 500 points. That being said, we can expect some changes to the warscroll: The article says the Leviadon is capable of doing 20 wounds with -3 rend with that new monstrous action. Currently, the fins and jaws can do 22 wounds. Also, it's safe to assume the shooting will be changed to D3 damage to match the Allopex's, as they're the same weapon.

Of course, all of this is speculation based off drip-fed information. Gimme the damn tome!

[Liquidsteel]

32 minutes ago, Siorra said:

I dug out that Tweet and can confirm it was said, so I'm hopeful this means Leviadons aren't over 500 points. That being said, we can expect some changes to the warscroll: The article says the Leviadon is capable of doing 20 wounds with -3 rend with that new monstrous action. Currently, the fins and jaws can do 22 wounds. Also, it's safe to assume the shooting will be changed to D3 damage to match the Allopex's, as they're the same weapon.

Of course, all of this is speculation based off drip-fed information. Gimme the damn tome!

It actually says "over 20" so that's close enough to 22.

[Siorra]

53 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

It actually says "over 20" so that's close enough to 22.

And this is why speculation is dangerous; because idiots like me don't read things properly.

I have my first tournament since Covid at the end of March. I'm really hoping to have the tome well before then, because having the mixed up new & old from Fury of the Deep is making list writing awkward. I hate this state of limbo! 😅