Kragnos discussion

[C0deb1ue]

31 minutes ago, OrcaLullaby said:

I think that to compare it with non heroes is not fair as non heroes units are always more point efficient.

 

A correct thing to do will be to compare it with a similar center piece like for instance arhchaon. Let's see. Archaon is 800 points and what do we get with this extra 40 points? a similar stat ines. a 3+ save which is worst but a 20 wounds count which is better and can heal himself. Also it has far better mobility as it can fly and move 14" at full bracket. It does not mortal wounds on charge but it has a breath attack that causes mortal wounds and can heal himself. Also it has far better synergy. A +2 bravery aura which is twice as good as the Kragnos +1 aura. It has 2 command abilities and can cast and unbind 2 spells. Kragnos only beat him with magic protection but not for far as Archaon can auto dispel endless spells and can unbind 2 spells.

 

Yes I do think that unless something really special happen in aos 3.0. he is over costed for good margin.

My to mention archaon has a tonne of keywords that let him be part of an army. He’s so much better than Kragnos, it’s not even funny. What I was mostly trying to demonstrate is that Kragnos doesn’t bring anything to the faction. Forget his points... he doesn’t do anything special, interesting or even synergistic at a basic level. He’s effectively a crazily overcosted merc...

[C0deb1ue]

23 minutes ago, Boingrot Bouncer said:

Yes, in a way it is unfair to do so, but when the buffs you get from the hero pretty much amount to nothing (+1 bravery but risk of MW to your own unit) what use is that hero but to do damage.

But as you also show very nicely in your comparison with Archaon he is pretty bad as a hero. Right now the only hope for Kragnos is something in the battletome or the coming destruction battletome, but the people peordering him must have shrunked a lot when the points was leaked.

Definitely not bothering anymore but I’m sure people who like the model and idea of a centrepiece will buy him. 

models ok but I don’t think it even fits destruction anyway so no real hobby impetus to buy for me.

Edited May 28, 2021 by C0deb1ue

[Zappgrot]

Kragnos Feels like an insult.

His model does not fit whit the rest of the destcrution aesthetic.

His fluff comes  at you out of nowhere.

His rules are both booring and lol random at the same time.

And he's overcosted

The perfect dark brown smelly mess of bad.

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Zappgrot

[Mutton]

Continuing proof that GW rules writers *love* Destruction allegiance.

I was going to preorder this guy as soon as possible--but 760? He's not even close to being worth that much.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Mutton

[C0deb1ue]

8 minutes ago, Mutton said:

Continuing proof that GW rules writers *love* Destruction allegiance.

I was going to preorder this guy as soon as possible--but 760? He's not even close to being worth that much.

Hey don't be like that.... they managed to squeeze a whole faction out of just one new sculpt last time... why would they put so much effort in if they didn't love destruction!

[Zappgrot]

6 minutes ago, C0deb1ue said:

Hey don't be like that.... they managed to squeeze a whole faction out of just one new sculpt last time... why would they put so much effort in if they didn't love destruction!

They even the spread the love. Cause every other  allegiance can take that sculpt to. Gw loves destruction so much that they think no faction should be whitout a little destruction on the inside. 

[Lord Krungharr]

I just saw the blurry Italian points cost.  Clearly those are metric points.  American points should be less because of the conversion formulas.

If I'm incorrect in that assumption, I'm gonna just have to resell him and get more Leadbelchers, a Tyrant, maybe some more Ironguts, Gnoblars, and an Ironblaster.

[Rors]

Silver lining: by being ridiculously expensive you don't have to buy as many models.

This means you can complete your destruction army sooner and move on to collecting an army from a real faction.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Rors

[Pitloze]

Even if Kragnos gets something from the Kruel boyz release GW really borked themselves by not releasing that info RIGHT NOW. Because they are going to lose a lot of sales just on the point leaks alone.

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Pitloze

[OrcaLullaby]

2 hours ago, Boingrot Bouncer said:

Yes, in a way it is unfair to do so, but when the buffs you get from the hero pretty much amount to nothing (+1 bravery but risk of MW to your own unit) what use is that hero but to do damage.

But as you also show very nicely in your comparison with Archaon he is pretty bad as a hero. Right now the only hope for Kragnos is something in the battletome or the coming destruction battletome, but the people peordering him must have shrunked a lot when the points was leaked.

I agree with you. Also central pieces use to don't be so competitive unless the don't bring anything very special in terms of synergy (e.g. Teclis).

There is some hope however with the battle tome. Think about gordrakk fist of gork. If you are running orruk warclans you can get 6 whaagh points from him instead of 1D6 from a regular orrukk warlord. This is a rule that appears in the orruk warlcans battletome and somehow is quite a boost.

Who know perhaps he grants thing like to have bad moon bonuses, a zillion of whaagh points or some equivalent bonus for ogors mawtribes. Just speculating though so take it with a pinch of salt.

Otherwise I see him just as a collection model or if someday just for the fun you want to bring the supreme lord of destruction and the earthquakes in a battle

[Andalf]

Ummm... even on a 2 and 4 to charge I’d say 8 mortals for moving into combat with something is pretty nuts, even 4-6 is Good...  I don’t know about you guys but I often need 8+ charges in game when I use close combat armies and if you pull one of those off with this guy that unit is literally dead...  what more could you ask for?  If you shoot him, like with all god characters, then your boingrots/FLoSH live.

 He’s really scary, even for his points, and saying otherwise is a bit disingenuous IMO.  People are going to put him next to as many mawcrushas as they can or him + a megagargant.  I don’t know how my Lumineth would handle plinking away at that for 3 turns, I don’t have a unit that can take the charge and I don’t think I bring enough shots.  Even if you did bring the classic Teclis+Sentinels it’d be up to some dice because you might not Lambent Light him for the rerolls to drop him in a turn.  Which is where that list always wins and loses basically...

Edited May 28, 2021 by Andalf

[Lord Krungharr]

I'm almost thinking a  wizarding army casting Life Swarm and Cogs and Prismatic Palisade (to block some LOS) would make Kragnos pretty good, even if he is like 700+ points.  Not that Destruction has the best wizardry, but some can get pretty decent casting rolls off.  Skragrott or a Fungoid Shaman for example.

Guess we'll just have to be patient to see the real lowdown.

[OrcaLullaby]

1 hour ago, Andalf said:

Ummm... even on a 2 and 4 to charge I’d say 8 mortals for moving into combat with something is pretty nuts, even 4-6 is Good...  I don’t know about you guys but I often need 8+ charges in game when I use close combat armies and if you pull one of those off with this guy that unit is literally dead...  what more could you ask for?  If you shoot him, like with all god characters, then your boingrots/FLoSH live.

 He’s really scary, even for his points, and saying otherwise is a bit disingenuous IMO.  People are going to put him next to as many mawcrushas as they can or him + a megagargant.  I don’t know how my Lumineth would handle plinking away at that for 3 turns, I don’t have a unit that can take the charge and I don’t think I bring enough shots.  Even if you did bring the classic Teclis+Sentinels it’d be up to some dice because you might not Lambent Light him for the rerolls to drop him in a turn.  Which is where that list always wins and loses basically...

I see your point and I would agree that it could have some utility if the big charge bonus were to apply to any target. Multiply the value of 2 dices it give an average of 12.25 MW on the charge more and less.

However, according the warscroll and unless I haven't missed anything, this is only applied if the target is a monster, otherwise it does 1D6 so is a bit of niche. I wish you were right and I have missed something from the warscroll.

Edited May 28, 2021 by OrcaLullaby

[Andalf]

I suppose you could read niche against armies that don’t bring monsters, every opponent I currently play has them in multiples though.  I apologize but I haven’t played against an army in a long time that didn’t have something I’d be happy to aim Kragnos at, but I do understand the no Mortal Wound save gripe, even just a 6+++, and then he’d have everything layered on in his scroll and I do feel like they are trying to get away from that in AoS forcing the generalship to layer on the buffs.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Andalf

[Lord Krungharr]

One thing he really should have had is an ability to leap over units much like Megagargants do with Longshanks.  At least on a 2+ or something, and on a 1 he can't jump that high.  I mean, he is super huge with a giant powerful behind!

Saw a closer up picture of his mace and shield, those are some nice bits.  The mace almost looks flexible, like bound fibers for the shaft.  A giant black-jack of sorts.  

Looks like for his Rampaging Destruction charge if he charges into multiple units, he can do D6 MW to each on a 2+, OR he can pick 1 monster to do the big MW to; but not both.  If he can make it into multiple smaller units at once, that would be the ideal target point.  Plus then if he takes some wounds back he can yell at them for even more MW.  And wreck their houses.  RAWR!

[Pitloze]

So far the leaks confirm that he gets NO faction and NO additional rules in his own book haha.

[C0deb1ue]

1 hour ago, Pitloze said:

So far the leaks confirm that he gets NO faction and NO additional rules in his own book haha.

Kragnos is easily one of the worst things in his own book. He was saved by the beasts of chaos warscrolls... but such a low bar 

Edited May 28, 2021 by C0deb1ue

[Scurvydog]

So disappointing there is no way to fit him into a SoB army either in any meaningful way, he is just way way over costed... 

Guess it is better for the sanity to just ignore this book and get on the 3.0 train instead

[Lord Krungharr]

Old forgotten Malal is whispering to use him in every game 11 times to master his utility.  But the Gulping God grumbles that I should save the money as store credit for more Gutbusters....and candy and chips.   I'm not sure which voice to listen to.

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

On 5/4/2021 at 9:09 AM, Beer & Pretzels Gamer said:

Destruction my favorite faction so excited to have this new option.  My first take (obviously need to see full war scroll and points) for my Destruction lists:

- Troggoths a hammer for the Rockgut anvil?  Would replace the Mangler Squigs/Colossal Squig I’m currently using for more mobility.

- Gutbusters replacement for the awkward Frostlord on Stonehorn I so often default back to when  trying to put non-BCR lists over the top

- Bonesplitterz replacement for Rogue Idol

- Sons swap out 3rd Mega to swap Kragnos in 

Harder to see swapping out the Frostlord in an actual BCR list or the Mawkrusha in an Ironjawz, at least until I see more details.  But when you start talking the price he’s going to be, four slots not a bad start…

Hate to quote myself but I looked back at my lists that I built based on these ideas once the points were announced and went from four lists to zero…

[C0deb1ue]

52 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

So disappointing there is no way to fit him into a SoB army either in any meaningful way, he is just way way over costed... 

Guess it is better for the sanity to just ignore this book and get on the 3.0 train instead

I think wait for 3.0 and maybe kraggy turns up in the new faction battletome with a reason to take him.

[PlayerJ]

1 hour ago, C0deb1ue said:

I think wait for 3.0 and maybe kraggy turns up in the new faction battletome with a reason to take him.

Here's hoping, looks like that's what their teasing. But in the mean time I canceled my Kraggy preorder, my money would be better spent on the Doninion box

[Rors]

11 hours ago, Andalf said:

I suppose you could read niche against armies that don’t bring monsters, every opponent I currently play has them in multiples though.  I apologize but I haven’t played against an army in a long time that didn’t have something I’d be happy to aim Kragnos at, but I do understand the no Mortal Wound save gripe, even just a 6+++, and then he’d have everything layered on in his scroll and I do feel like they are trying to get away from that in AoS forcing the generalship to layer on the buffs.

Assuming the opponent has zero screens and places their monsters close to each other sure...

At those kind of points costs, and being a model that is pure damage focused, if he's not tearing apart high value targets asap, it's going to be really hard to get his value back in the game.

All your opponent has to do is screen block, even with some units that aren't normally cost efficient screens. Turn one he won't be in combat, and it generally won't matter on the last turn. So basically he has 3 turns of combat to make himself worthwhile. This doesn't have to be purely in killed units as he also provides zoning (opponent won't put high value targets close to him and if he deleted a unit holding an objective they're worth more than just their points).

I'd say at 700+ points, if there's no faction bonus, if the skill level is approximately the same between players, Kraggy will rarely be worthwhile. You're opponent basically has to make a mistake, otherwise they can just ignore him and he'll rarely kill enough to make up for his cost. If you think of his points as him killing that mcu of your army before the game, he'll generally do more damage to you than your opponent.

I say this being one of the voices in favor of higher points range.. but 700+ with nothing else beyond the warscroll is a Timmy trap.

One thing that occurred to me is that unlike most monster with that many wounds, he brackets really well. His main weapon and secondary weapon profiles don't degrade and the stuff that does degrade doesn't drop that badly.

 

Edited May 29, 2021 by Rors
after thought

[Sprues&Brews]

Hey guys! Our review of Broken Realms Kragnos is live as is our Video lookthrough!

https://spruesandbrews.com/2021/05/29/broken-realms-kragnos-review/

 

[Pitloze]

I bought him. Skipped his book. Banking on his stonks going up in Kruel Boyz release. If not then he's some glue (hehehe) I can use to build new destro armies with without buying whole 2k armies at once.

Edited May 29, 2021 by Pitloze