New dwarf army soon? Mixed dwarfs

[Baron Klatz]

Honestly I'm wondering if GW's getting ready to throw us a curveball. Despite the soup theories Kharadron in both the corebook and white dwarf aren't fans of Grungni and need to be tricked by him while certainly a very popular faction on their own so aren't that threatened by it.

Meanwhile Sylvaneth are more and more showing their love for the little lads be it in Soulbound or their new allies focus being only the Duardin for CoS.(hilarious to think how they'd rather take them over Wanderers whose aelfy throats they still want to throttle)

 I'm wondering if we're due for a big surprise with Dispossessed being replaced with Clans of the Realms that are Fyreslayers + stuff like Grungni's new stuff (Gholemkin race of metal people) and other Duardin of the realms like the Rootkings & their Sylvaneth friends-

-while the Kharadron and their sky empires are just allies to the clans and lodges growing their empires in the forests, volcanoes and eldritch living mountains of the realms.

That way Fyreslayers get a huge revamp among other magical duardin above those of the mortal city kind(our fire-breathing ones, those that are full of life magic and ones made of metal replacing the old guys that can just turn into Kharadron as mortals+) for that Lumineth treatment as aelves made of light magic that all know magic and glow in the dark > mortal high aelves while Kharadron keep doing their own thing and occasionally get talked into helping their distant kin by Grungni's personas.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Baron Klatz

[King Under the Mountain]

6 hours ago, Doko said:

 

But idoneths are specials,i could see them together dok but not lumis per example,and sylvaneths could be together teclis\tyriom\morathi\malekith army but i see them more as a separate army.

New orks follow mork and ironjawz follow gorko and i dont see people upset to get them in the same tome because they have diferent gods

First wanted to say that I disagree with your outlook but respect that you have a different opinion then mine.  

Going to hit these two points though.  Idoneth are to Aelves what I see Kharadron are to Duradin in my opinion.  Yes the backgrounds are completely different but from the lore that has been established the Kharadron have abandoned the old Dispossessed way of living and have established a new and awesomely unique culture.  To stuff them back with their ground based cousins is a regression of the lore.  Just like stuffing Idoneth into the Lumineth battletone would be a disservice to the lore that they have. 

Mork and Gork are different gods but have a history of also being one god (Gorkamorka) and my knowledge of Greenskin lore is lacking but I believe they even started as one being.  So grouping them up does make a bit of sense. 

Edited June 26, 2021 by King Under the Mountain

[Whitefang]

7 hours ago, Baron Klatz said:

Meanwhile Sylvaneth are more and more showing their love for the little lads be it in Soulbound or their new allies focus being only the Duardin for CoS.

Friendship with duardin is only and always a thing of ironbark, the Chamon sylvaneth, though.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Whitefang

[Baron Klatz]

Well not only, earlier stuff did mention the Rootkings that were allowed to forge the Sylvaneth soulpods into weapons in Ghyran.

It's great they're getting focus though, their whole thing of growing irontree fortresses for their duardin friends is amazing(and always funny to see duardin and Fyreslayers with more love from Sylvaneth than "traitor marked" Wanderers. )

5 hours ago, King Under the Mountain said:

Mork and Gork are different gods but have a history of also being one god (Gorkamorka) and my knowledge ofGreenskin lore is lacking but I believe they even started as one being. 

They also reform into Gorkamorka either when they get serious or to show the waaaghs growing in strength when cunning & brutal combine making it more suitable.

That's why I think it'd be more fitting for a new Grungni faction to actually represent his children to combine with Grimnir's children(if need be) rather than a race he has to actively deceive to work for him.

Make Gholemkin and Fyreslayers the Ironjawz & Kruleboyz while Kharadron are Gloomspite, ready allies for a price but clearly have their own beliefs and agenda that don't match the others. Magic god-created duardin of metal and fire vs magi-tech duardin that control metal and fire.

Also sidenote, Doko exaggerated that white dwarf bit about Phil Kelly saying "Fyreslayers and slayers are the same". The article clearly said(you can view it on their site) they are Spiritual Successors. Which is like, duh. magic lava dwarves with dragon allies that have mercenary societies vs a mundane suicide cult.

I do like it mentions in the "Ask the White Dwarf" section that when Gotrek gets angry he bursts into flames. He could easily be a Kragnos for a future Fyreslayers tome and even be used in the Dawncrusaders. Him representing Fyreslayers and Maleneth being for both the Azyrites (order of Azyr) and Daughters of Khaine would be a fantastic way to make a new supplement for humans, Fyreslayers & DoK.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Baron Klatz

[Whitefang]

6 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

Well not only, earlier stuff did mention the Rootkings that were allowed to forge the Sylvaneth soulpods into weapons in Ghyran.

That’s a Reynolds’ thing, though.

[Baron Klatz]

Okay? I mean up to them what they keep and expand on but with things like when Mengal Miniatures got his stuff used in Kharadron lore from the Legions of Nagash tome it's not like they'd drop awesome ideas floating around for their lore.

"There are a bunch of cool little snippets, my favorite is about the Kharadron Overlords of Barak-Mor though, since this was a Skyport located in Shyish I invented back in April and was completely surprised to find them mentioned in this Battletome! I'm completely honored that GW decided to use that little bit of lore that I made up, even if they do come out on the wrong side of the fight here."

http://www.mengelminiatures.com/2018/02/review-legions-of-nagash_5.html?m=1

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by Baron Klatz

[silverstu]

2 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

Okay? I mean up to them what they keep and expand on but with things like when Mengal Miniatures got his stuff used in Kharadron lore from the Legions of Nagash tome it's not like they'd drop awesome ideas floating around for their lore.

"There are a bunch of cool little snippets, my favorite is about the Kharadron Overlords of Barak-Mor though, since this was a Skyport located in Shyish I invented back in April and was completely surprised to find them mentioned in this Battletome! I'm completely honored that GW decided to use that little bit of lore that I made up, even if they do come out on the wrong side of the fight here."

This is important - GW isn't going to drop cool things from the lore- AoS was designed to allow them to do more things. KO and Slayers sharing a book with new classic dwarfs just means for now they don't get anything new. I'm a longtime dwarf player/collector and therefore a pragmatist. The release schedule doesn't allow for expansions to those ranges- dwarf wise we are getting a new take on the classic dwarf schemes [not to mention seraphon, CoS, Skaven, BoC all needing refreshes]. 

Also I think many are forgetting their heritage - KO have their roots in the dwarf hold of Zhufbar which was the seat of the Engineers guild and had fleets of gyrocopters and bombers as well as all sorts of other technology. Slayers had the hold of Karak Kadrin - so the old Dwarf Empire had a place for these different cultures- just In AoS these themes are turned up to 11 and turned into bigger cultures. 

A new tome will allow you to add more duardin elements to your army if you so wish, if you don't - then don't and field pure forces. No need to tear your beards out over this. I'm certain GW will revisit KO and Slayers in time, but just not this time, instead we get to witness the resurgence of broader dwarf culture and we can celebrate that and if not join in, then certainly fight alongside our revived kin. 

Evidently Gotrek and Grombrindal are going to be special characters in the new Tome- I wonder what/who else we will get, what new war machines will be added and what the new armoured might of the Dawi will look like. Rune weapons for all..heres hoping... 

[Clan's Cynic]

28 minutes ago, silverstu said:

This is important - GW isn't going to drop cool things from the lore- AoS was designed to allow them to do more things. KO and Slayers sharing a book with new classic dwarfs just means for now they don't get anything new. I'm a longtime dwarf player/collector and therefore a pragmatist. The release schedule doesn't allow for expansions to those ranges- dwarf wise we are getting a new take on the classic dwarf schemes [not to mention seraphon, CoS, Skaven, BoC all needing refreshes]. 

Also I think many are forgetting their heritage - KO have their roots in the dwarf hold of Zhufbar which was the seat of the Engineers guild and had fleets of gyrocopters and bombers as well as all sorts of other technology. Slayers had the hold of Karak Kadrin - so the old Dwarf Empire had a place for these different cultures- just In AoS these themes are turned up to 11 and turned into bigger cultures. 

The Mono-God Chaos armies have their roots in Hordes of Chaos. Should they be merged with Slaves to Darkness? Idoneth have their roots with the Sea Elves and Teclis, should they be merged with Lumineth? The Nighthaunt and FEC have their roots as units in Vampire Counts, should they be merged with Soulblight? I genuinely don't understand why people are so keen to make an exception for the Dawi when it comes to soup. 

Kharadron and Old World Dwarf engineering is so different that the Cogsmith/Gyrocopters are literally still part of the game. Put them next to Kharadron airships and they do look like they're from completely different armies. Old World Slayers and Fyreslayers are so different from a lore perspective that, for a short while, Old World Slayers were still part of Dispossessed.

28 minutes ago, silverstu said:

A new tome will allow you to add more duardin elements to your army if you so wish, if you don't - then don't and field pure forces. No need to tear your beards out over this. I'm certain GW will revisit KO and Slayers in time, but just not this time, instead we get to witness the resurgence of broader dwarf culture and we can celebrate that and if not join in, then certainly fight alongside our revived kin. 

Evidently Gotrek and Grombrindal are going to be special characters in the new Tome- I wonder what/who else we will get, what new war machines will be added and what the new armoured might of the Dawi will look like. Rune weapons for all..heres hoping... 

More likely, a new tome would dilute the KO and FS elements. The former are well loved for the impressive amount of world/culture building that takes place, now strip out 2/3 of that to make way for the other's sections. Take the pretty minimal amount of lore covering Fyreslayer's life away from 'kill stuff for gold', toss it in the bin and leave no room to expand upon it. 

There's not much of a precedent for soup'ed armies getting new kits. Ogres got a plastic Tyrant but that was an updated sculpt anyway, the Kruelboyz are their own thing. There's the Witch Hunter duo for CoS I suppose. Whilst I'm pretty sure we'll get a Grombrindal centrepiece, it's more likely the FS/KO elements are simply left to rot as "well they can buy the other Dwarf army now". Plus there's no guarantee there'll be a "Big Dawi Waaaggghhh" if Mawtribes is any indication - it could just end up being book consolidation but allow you to take other <Duardin> without any Allegiance benefits, which there are ways of doing now anyway.

I'm open to my usual cynicism being proven wrong and I hope if there is a soup'ing (which seems inevitable based on WD) that I am, it's just the precedent set by existing soup 'Tomes isn't encouraging. 

Edited June 26, 2021 by Clan's Cynic

[Baron Klatz]

Gotta agree, just take a look at the front page of the Kharadron lexicanum. There's enough lore there that puts even some world-that-was army books to shame that kept recycling theirs over and over adding new stuff.

Fyreslayers I can see getting mixed with something new but they've left enough breadcrumbs now that it can veer into CoS territory too which wouldn't be the worst thing.

But i'm not really gonna buy into the KO/FS soup rumor until I actually see GW show it off. It's like has been said before, we've gotten big lead ups before that lead to nowhere (looking at you Gordrakk and your God-beast battering ram hyped up for 3 years now to just go poof)

Edited June 26, 2021 by Baron Klatz

[King Under the Mountain]

4 hours ago, Baron Klatz said:

 

But i'm not really gonna buy into the KO/FS soup rumor until I actually see GW show it off. It's like has been said before, we've gotten big lead ups before that lead to nowhere (looking at you Gordrakk and your God-beast battering ram hyped up for 3 years now to just go poof)

This. GW has a history of teasing things for years just to throw them out the window.  Then randomly introducing something that has never been hinted before. 

All signs right now admittedly point to soup but I'll keep up hope that KO will keep its rightful place as an independent army. 

Edited June 26, 2021 by King Under the Mountain

[Whitefang]

5 hours ago, Clan&#x27;s Cynic said:

it's more likely the FS/KO elements are simply left to rot

I really don't think you need to be that pessimistic

[Clan's Cynic]

27 minutes ago, Whitefang said:

I really don't think you need to be that pessimistic

I do, or my username won't be valid anymore.

[King Under the Mountain]

51 minutes ago, Whitefang said:

I really don't think you need to be that pessimistic

Hope me and him are proven wrong! 

[JustAsPlanned]

58 minutes ago, Whitefang said:

I really don't think you need to be that pessimistic

He’s a dwarf, being pessimistic is his Grungni-given right!

[cofaxest]

To be honest, I see the unification of Duardin factions only as Empire where each faction have its own cities, I can't imagine Rune father, Grand Admiral and Warden king rule the same place together. They all too different not only culturally but generally speaking they live in different ecosystems. Something like a pact that will create a big Duardin Empire that will consist of some fyrslayers lodges, Kharadron Baraks and Dispossessed Karaks will be more than enough. Plus I will be happy to see a faction of Gholemkins(GK) as big constructs with dwarven souls inside (like troggoths for GSG) and something tells me that we can get something like this. (KO+FS+GK)

[Dawi not Duardin]

9 hours ago, cofaxest said:

To be honest, I see the unification of Duardin factions only as Empire where each faction have its own cities, I can't imagine Rune father, Grand Admiral and Warden king rule the same place together. They all too different not only culturally but generally speaking they live in different ecosystems. Something like a pact that will create a big Duardin Empire that will consist of some fyrslayers lodges, Kharadron Baraks and Dispossessed Karaks will be more than enough. Plus I will be happy to see a faction of Gholemkins(GK) as big constructs with dwarven souls inside (like troggoths for GSG) and something tells me that we can get something like this. (KO+FS+GK)

This is a very good point. In general, they could be allied in some important sense without for that reason being culturally identical.

Expanding on this, one thing that has not been discussed when it comes to soup is that you could have lore soup without having book soup. CoS and Stormcast are both Sigmarite factions, for example. Even though people are suggesting 'Dwarf soup' now, that doesn't actually necessarily imply that they will have the same book. There could be a Groundbound Underemperors faction consisting of different types of mountain holds that is allied with the Kharadron Overlords, but they could still be in different books.

Perhaps they will have different relationships to Grungni (and Grimnir, etc) - the Kharadron could sign a contract with the Gods without themselves becoming religious in the sense that they worship them, whereas the Groundbound would worship them in a more traditional manner. That would preserve the distinctness of their respective lore and books while still unifying them.

Edited June 27, 2021 by Dawi not Duardin

[zilberfrid]

15 hours ago, Whitefang said:

I really don't think you need to be that pessimistic

I agree. Rot is still growth, still expansion. Chopped up and put in preservatives is what my pessimism says. For Kharadron, taken the heart out before preservation if they dipwash them in religion first.

But we'll see. 

As an aside, I have decided to still spend some money on GW dwarves in the meantime, because my idea of Chippendale Fyreslayers was put as a challenge for me and that needs some kitbashing. Though this may be perceived as unloreful by some. Or all.

[King Under the Mountain]

3 hours ago, Dawi not Duardin said:

This is a very good point. In general, they could be allied in some important sense without for that reason being culturally identical.

Expanding on this, one thing that has not been discussed when it comes to soup is that you could have lore soup without having book soup. CoS and Stormcast are both Sigmarite factions, for example. Even though people are suggesting 'Dwarf soup' now, that doesn't actually necessarily imply that they will have the same book. There could be a Groundbound Underemperors faction consisting of different types of mountain holds that is allied with the Kharadron Overlords, but they could still be in different books.

Perhaps they will have different relationships to Grungni (and Grimnir, etc) - the Kharadron could sign a contract with the Gods without themselves becoming religious in the sense that they worship them, whereas the Groundbound would worship them in a more traditional manner. That would preserve the distinctness of their respective lore and books while still unifying them.

This would honestly be my preferred outcome to the act of souping and would let the Kharadron still keep the "soul" of their culture. 

All this talk lately has really gotten me hyped/stressed (as stressed as you can be about a game of miniature soldiers) and I feel like it will be a while still before we find out what GW plans. 

 

[Whitefang]

2 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

they dipwash them in religion first.

Why would they? I can’t see that tbh

Edited June 27, 2021 by Whitefang

[zilberfrid]

4 minutes ago, Whitefang said:

I can’t see that tbh

This fills my sceptical heart with joy!

I feel it hasn't been said enough, but I like your cryptic teasers (not that this is very cryptic, but in general).

Edited June 27, 2021 by zilberfrid

[cofaxest]

1 hour ago, Whitefang said:

Why would they? I can’t see that tbh

Actual thing I want to address that if I understand that correct Grungni pretty happy with KO as they are and want only one thing - unite duardins under Duardin legacy, not his. Grungni wants Duardins to become stronger than the gods that they had to worship but at the same time united as a race. .

Edited June 27, 2021 by cofaxest

[Clan's Cynic]

20 hours ago, cofaxest said:

To be honest, I see the unification of Duardin factions only as Empire where each faction have its own cities, I can't imagine Rune father, Grand Admiral and Warden king rule the same place together. They all too different not only culturally but generally speaking they live in different ecosystems. Something like a pact that will create a big Duardin Empire that will consist of some fyrslayers lodges, Kharadron Baraks and Dispossessed Karaks will be more than enough. Plus I will be happy to see a faction of Gholemkins(GK) as big constructs with dwarven souls inside (like troggoths for GSG) and something tells me that we can get something like this. (KO+FS+GK)

My guess is it would work like Mawtribes does. Each of the sub-factions/Allegiances would be very obviously themed to one of the previous standalone armies, offering no benefits to the other Dawi-types beyond your ability to bring them in the first place, in the same way the Mawtribes sub-factions are either Beastclaw Raiders or Gutbusters.

I doubt there will be some sort of Big Dawi Waaaggghhh(!). The KO/DIS/FS are at least as distinct culturally (nevermind visually) from the two Ogres, without the habit of banding together that Warclans have.

Edited June 27, 2021 by Clan's Cynic

[Baron Klatz]

That does seem the obvious path for a easy soup if it happens. Though i'd imagine Dispossessed left for CoS and just given the 1 in 4 rules for a Kharadron & Fyreslayers crusader allegiance instead of bloating the tome with an identical army with less options than cities. They're still city dweller dispossessed after all which was the point of Grungni's goal to win back their holds and finally lose that title(probably will be when they're replaced by actual realms duardin ala Lumineth).

On 6/26/2021 at 9:56 AM, cofaxest said:

Plus I will be happy to see a faction of Gholemkins(GK) as big constructs with dwarven souls inside (like troggoths for GSG) and something tells me that we can get something like this. (KO+FS+GK)

This is my hope besides a Kharadron tome that's just allied to a Duardin+Fyreslayers tome. If they do get put together then give them a thematic connection army like that. Duardin soul golems that can be made magi-tech steampunk to fit the Kharadron or walking lava furnaces for Fyreslayers would justify their themes being combined and be a whole new spin on old concepts that Age of Sigmar excels at.

(If not that and it is just KO+FS+a white dwarf figure only then at the very least give us some new Kharadron and Fyreslayer toys to bandage the wound. Aetheric mine-layer ships and the fire elementals unleashed by Ghyran's life flood would help a lot )

8 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

This fills my sceptical heart with joy!

Oh you should get the new Core Book then. Lexicanum's resident Kharadron expert/fanatic got to read the fluff and as someone staunchly against soup and religious Kharadron he loved it. It shows nothing's changed with them and even with Grungni's return they're still giving him distrustful sideways looks and prefer technology and progress over gods and tradition as their sky empires continue to prosper and grow their trade monopolies. (Seriously Dispossessed, just go Kharadron. Ruling above the clouds with steam and steel beats living in holes that always get destroyed by earthquakes and rat/daemon swarms. Edit: or just make your holds in those Dawncrusade sky islands, perfect middle-ground, literally. )

Edited June 27, 2021 by Baron Klatz

[Greybeard86]

After reading a lot of the complaints, I understand that some players love KO (fewer FS) and are afraid to lose them as a faction in a soup. As in declining support.

Personally, I have witnessed factions languish in AoS and I am pretty convinced that GW is unable to support as many distinct factions. I’d rather backpedal and apply nuln oil over the several factions so that they blend together into soup, even if that means toning down their individual identities. Because I believe the alternative is simply death by neglect.

I do however acknowledge that this is ****** for people who loved those factions. And I resent GW s approach in early AoS. It was simply poor practice to release for those sweet few release dollars and not support any longer afterwards. 

That said, here we are, and at least they acknowledge tacitly the issue. If soup is what is needed, I ll take soup over legends. As long as this is not repeated! Stop freaking legending or leaving factions to rot. You sell expensive minis and not cards, accept it and stop treating them artificially like perishable goods.
 

[silverstu]

On 6/26/2021 at 5:56 PM, cofaxest said:

To be honest, I see the unification of Duardin factions only as Empire where each faction have its own cities, I can't imagine Rune father, Grand Admiral and Warden king rule the same place together. They all too different not only culturally but generally speaking they live in different ecosystems. Something like a pact that will create a big Duardin Empire that will consist of some fyrslayers lodges, Kharadron Baraks and Dispossessed Karaks will be more than enough. Plus I will be happy to see a faction of Gholemkins(GK) as big constructs with dwarven souls inside (like troggoths for GSG) and something tells me that we can get something like this. (KO+FS+GK)

Yeah this was what I was meaning - a dwarf empire of independent holds/nations held together because they are the same overarching culture, but distinct within it. The way the old Empire in WFB had Karak Kadrin, the hold of Slayers and Zhufbar the home of the engineers. 

On 6/26/2021 at 10:29 AM, Clan&#x27;s Cynic said:

The Mono-God Chaos armies have their roots in Hordes of Chaos. Should they be merged with Slaves to Darkness? Idoneth have their roots with the Sea Elves and Teclis, should they be merged with Lumineth? The Nighthaunt and FEC have their roots as units in Vampire Counts, should they be merged with Soulblight? I genuinely don't understand why people are so keen to make an exception for the Dawi when it comes to soup. 

Kharadron and Old World Dwarf engineering is so different that the Cogsmith/Gyrocopters are literally still part of the game. Put them next to Kharadron airships and they do look like they're from completely different armies. Old World Slayers and Fyreslayers are so different from a lore perspective that, for a short while, Old World Slayers were still part of Dispossessed.

More likely, a new tome would dilute the KO and FS elements. The former are well loved for the impressive amount of world/culture building that takes place, now strip out 2/3 of that to make way for the other's sections. Take the pretty minimal amount of lore covering Fyreslayer's life away from 'kill stuff for gold', toss it in the bin and leave no room to expand upon it. 

There's not much of a precedent for soup'ed armies getting new kits. Ogres got a plastic Tyrant but that was an updated sculpt anyway, the Kruelboyz are their own thing. There's the Witch Hunter duo for CoS I suppose. Whilst I'm pretty sure we'll get a Grombrindal centrepiece, it's more likely the FS/KO elements are simply left to rot as "well they can buy the other Dwarf army now". Plus there's no guarantee there'll be a "Big Dawi Waaaggghhh" if Mawtribes is any indication - it could just end up being book consolidation but allow you to take other <Duardin> without any Allegiance benefits, which there are ways of doing now anyway.

I'm open to my usual cynicism being proven wrong and I hope if there is a soup'ing (which seems inevitable based on WD) that I am, it's just the precedent set by existing soup 'Tomes isn't encouraging. 

Coming back to this brother- I think you misunderstand me. I love KO and would love nothing more than them getting another 6 kits, they are a jaw dropping range and I love their culture. However the sense in the winds are that there will be tome which covers all the dwarf nations, not what I want but that won't change the fact. So I'm trying to look at the positives- that we are getting potentially a new/fresh range of dwarfs, that KO have such a strong identity they will be going nowhere , [indeed I think they will have a strong hand the form of a new book covering the disparate dwarf empire]. I believe GW will return to KO and Fyreslayers in time when the release schedule allows . Looking at Bugmansson and Dagnai KO definitely seem to be a rich design ethos for them. So I'm not wishing for a combined tome, I'm merely looking at as positively as possible as there's nothing tome done to change it. I could see GW combining more factions like that too- in terms of Knife ears- Sylvaneth will likely get Kurnothi/wanderers added, Lumineth I think would stand alone, I think Idoneth would actually join in with DoK and Malerions aelves as they seem more like the blackarc corsairs with their raiding. I also don't expect Idoneth to get a big update this new edition, I might be wrong.  Maybe Tomes will becoming larger to accommodate more content if more forces share a book. I'm probably more Clan Optimist to your Clan Cynic but I think we both love KO to the same extent. 

On another note GW appears to have made a big deal of Grungni being back as a major player - I wonder if this means a new dwarf faction will get more attention like the Lumineth? I'm really excited to see classic dwarfs made for AoS, as much as I love the Hammerers and Ironbreakers to me they belong in the old world and I've missed classic dwarf feel for AoS [as utterly cool as KO are.]