To Ardboy or not to Ardboy

[Vasshpit]

So just curious as to your thoughts on this. I feel like Ardboyz are too redundant in terms of design to stay in Orruk Warclans. 

We have True Ironjawz, elite AF, heavily armored, big, green and mean.

Bonesplitterz seem to have taken the smaller more horde style approach. 

Then you have Ardboyz... 

With the announcement of the Old World I feel like they need to go back there. 

Now obviously Brutes need to be tweaked to compensate for this removal a bit but I just think it's time. 

In conclusion I think they should just be removed and left to the old world. 

Thoughts?

Edited March 6, 2021 by Vasshpit
Clarification

[Aelfric]

39 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

So just curious as to your thoughts on this. I feel like Ardboyz are too redundant in terms of design to stay in Orruk Warclans. 

We have True Ironjawz, elite AF, heavily armored, big, green and mean.

Bonesplitterz seem to have taken the smaller more horde style approach. 

Then you have Ardboyz... 

With the announcement of the Old World I feel like they need to go. 

Now obviously Brutes need to be tweaked to compensate for this removal a bit but I just think it's time. 

Thoughts?

Are you advocating replacement models as you feel the design doesn't fit, or the removal of the warscroll from the faction?  If the latter, then something would need to take their place, since that would leave only two troop units available.  

Despite having 40 Ardboyz painted up, I would accept it if there were alternative units to replace them - maybe chariots or elite brutes with different armour, or large brutes; something to at least maintain the rather small variety we have at present.

If we're just talking about new sculpts, then that's fine with me.

 

[Vasshpit]

@Aelfric Complete removal.

I just dont see their point. 

Seems Bonesplitterz have the "smaller" slot filled. 

I think anything you do to update Ardboyz you could just do to real Ironjawz and simplify the faction. 

Leave them to The Old World where they're the top of the hierarchy. 

[Televiper11]

I love Ardboyz. They’re small scrappers emulating their Brute mates and hoping to one day be one. They fill their role perfectly, IMO. They are expendable chaff that happen to be dependably tanky. 

[Scurvydog]

I agree, they are just a filler right now, however they get carried entirely by their command group, which might be the best in the game, giving +2 bravery banner and +2 charge ranges. Ironjawz should just go all the way and get some other new options. I would love a REAL anvil unit, some really over the top armored fanatics, addicted to punching new plates and add them to their collection. 

[Vasshpit]

@Televiper11 I get that but, correct me of I'm wrong, aren't Pure Jawz a different breed all together so they can't really become one, can they?

That was kinda pure Jawz schtick was that they evolved through the age of chaos to be the next step above Ardboyz (Black Orcs), am I right?

@Scurvydog They are definitely carried by that. I think a little too well. 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Vasshpit

[Televiper11]

3 hours ago, Vasshpit said:

@Televiper11 I get that but, correct me of I'm wrong, aren't Pure Jawz a different breed all together so they can't really become one, can they?

That was kinda pure Jawz schtick was that they evolved through the age of chaos to be the next step above Ardboyz (Black Orcs), am I right?

@Scurvydog They are definitely carried by that. I think a little too well. 

That’s not my understanding from the Battletome

 

 

 

[Vasshpit]

I read this as separate breeds. 

It's from the Warclans Ardboyz description page. 

[zilberfrid]

Why remove them instead of making their warscroll more distinct? They have better models than later kits, with armour that looks as if it would work.

[Aelfric]

I find the lore on the origins and reproduction of Orruks in AOS frustratingly vague.  If, as "the scholars of Hysh" believe, they grow from fungal jelly and Ardboyz are not true Ironjawz, then one has to assume that Ironjawz grow from a variety of fungus distinct from other greenskin races, such as standard Orruks and Grots.

As in pretty much all AOS origin stories, there is no definitive explanation so there is room for future alteration; in this case, perhaps, if the scholars discover new evidence. 

Much more difficult is to explain, in a way that is both believable and acceptable, how and where the Ardboyz went if they suddenly upped sticks and left the Ironjawz, especially if they disappear entirely without trace.  If they were to re-introduce a standard Orruk Greenskins battletome, then I'd be fine with Ardboyz going there and being the Elites, a path much easier to explain.  As allies, they could still be run with Ironjawz for those who want to and you could then perhaps start to differentiate further the Ironjawz from other Orruk races.  Give them the AOS to eleven treatment with ever larger models to depict their growth through fighting, for example.

What I don't want is for them to simply disappear without explanation.

 

 

[Vasshpit]

@zilberfrid Any idea on what to do to their warscroll to make them more distinct? Why keep them if they're just 2 wound brutes with a great command trait? Remove that and what's their point? They really shouldn't get a better bravery than brutes. 

Also when you say better models than later do you mean you prefer the Ardboyz (black orc) look to the Ironjawz look?

@Aelfric I also find the vagueary frustrating.

What could a standard Orruk battletome bring to the table that either Warclans or Mawtribes doesn't?  I just think it would be more redundant than anything. 

If you give them the "to eleven AoS" treatment and make them bigger then aren't they just Brutes? 

It seems so far that more want to keep them than dont. I really should have added a poll to this. 

I'm curious if those that want to keep them run heavy Ardboy lists or not

Thanks for replying everyone. 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Vasshpit

[Aelfric]

1 hour ago, Vasshpit said:

Aelfric I also find the vagueary frustrating.

What could a standard Orruk battletome bring to the table that either Warclans or Mawtribes doesn't?  I just think it would be more redundant than anything. 

If you give them the "to eleven AoS" treatment and make them bigger then aren't they just Brutes?

On the first point, it is possible to make standard Orruks distinct.  Bonesplitters have the niche of early Stone Age, spirit-obsessed savages and Ironjawz have the niche of Might is Right and obsessed with warfare to the exclusion of all else.  This leaves a very fat middle.  One way for Orruks to go, for example is to be archetypal Nomadic warrior tribes holding large territories or following seasonal migratory routes.  The vast majority of each Realm is not governed by civilisations; it is when civilisation impinges on their territory that conflict arises.  We even have snippets of Orruks working with civilisations on occasion as guards, trading etc. 

On the second point, you could argue that all the Lumineth are just Aelves.  The point would be to make the models distinct from each other on the table and for their warscrolls to offer distinct roles within the faction.  A unit of more heavily armoured Brutes with helmets, slightly larger and in units of three could be quite distinct with maybe more of a tank role; a Brute the size of a Dankhold could be a monster hunter; chariots horde killers; smaller mawcrushers for a flying cavalry unit.  They are all technically Brutes, but the result would be a diverse looking army, with more optional playstyles available.

In this scenario, the Ardboys can move to be the nomadic elite of Greenskins without detracting overall from the Ironjawz.

On the making warscrolls distinctive if Ardboyz are to remain, I wouldn't change the Ardboyz one, but the Brute one.  Perhaps give the Brutes a 3+ armour save and 5++ DPR (or something along those lines); make them  the anvil to the Ardboyz hammer.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Aelfric

[Vasshpit]

@Aelfric Good points on the fat middle ground. That seems like it's just Mawtribes with small Orruks though to me. 

I remember reading about the trading snippet and found that pretty interesting as well. 

With regards to your lumineth reference, yes they are all Aelves but within that faction there are not different breeds of Aelves like what we have with Orruks hence the "make them bigger and they just become brutes" point which just adds to redundancy. 

It's really is a strange plateau of design that GW put themselves into I think. I wish they would have just abandoned Ardboyz all together at the start of AoS but too late now. 

[Aelfric]

18 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

It's really is a strange plateau of design that GW put themselves into I think. I wish they would have just abandoned Ardboyz all together at the start of AoS but too late now. 

The decision to break up armies into mini-factions at the start of AOS seems to me to have been a short-term decision to accentuate the difference between the old and new, but has led to long-term complications that are still resonating.  Ardboyz were incorporated into Ironjawz really because they were a plastic model that still had legs and could bulk out the new Ironjawz faction. 

There is obviously a slow build-up to a big overhaul of Destruction taking place, with Gordrak on the move, so it's going to be interesting to see how GW handles it.

[Wobbly]

I just want GW to make something drastic with the Ardboys kit! As it it there is a distinct visual difference between the Ardboys and the rest of the Ironjawz range.

Unless the paint scheme does a superb job tying them with the rest of the Ironjawz kits they stand out a sore thumb to me. They lack the visual cues that otherwise distinguishes Ironjawz from other factions.

• Beat up and uneven armour with scratches and bolted on armour pieces here and there.
• Rough, haphazard and makeshift weapons that strangely looks sturdy and nasty at the same time.
• Surprisingly showing lots of skin to show off how green they are.
• Sporting quite a mishmash of trophies; skulls/heads, horns, claws and teeth.

Meanwhile the Ardboys have smooth and rounded armour of quite good quality (with a bit of scratching here and there), hardly show any skin, uses ring mail to contrast with the plate armour (Ironjawz has mail, leather and cloth) and wield weapons that basically are roughened and beefed up standard looking weapons.

Now don't get me wrong I actually like the Ardboys and their overall style, especially the Underworlds warband but they don't mix well with the rest of the Ironjawz faction as it stands.

As I see it GW has about 3 options to choose from;

1. Replace the Ardboys kit with one more thematically tied to the Ironjawz faction. Make them truly wannabe Ironjawz with a good punch, lesser survivability, more bodies and empathise their desire to become actual Ironjaw brutes!
2. Retire the kit (and warscroll) and introduce other kits to the Ironjawz range. More elite boss brutes, monstrous brutes or go more into the kunning aspect of orruks.
3. Create a third orruk faction consisting of "basic" orruks that has enough visual ties to both the Ironjawwz and Bonesplitterz to tie all 3 (sub-)factions together.

Or my favourite option a lot of all 3 options! 😁

New wannabe Ironjawz Ardboys kit and other new ideas/releases to the Ironjawz faction sounds lovely to me. 😍

[Vasshpit]

@Wobbly I'm going to go with option #2.

[acr0ssth3p0nd]

Why not just... integrate the 'Ardboyz into the Ironjawz directly, change the lore so they're a true mainline forces of the Ironjawz, who are more grounded and pragmatic about their path of war and destruction (heavy armor, good killin' gear) compared to the crazy spiritualism of the Bonesplitterz? I love the 'Ardboyz kit, I think the models have aged well, and the heavy armor aesthetic melds well into the rest of the force.

Edited March 6, 2021 by acr0ssth3p0nd

[Wobbly]

47 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

@Wobbly I'm going to go with option #2.

More kits to such a small range at the cost of one kit that stands out visually from the rest is definitely something I wouldn't be against. That would really move Ironjawz more into an elite theme as a faction/force.

24 minutes ago, acr0ssth3p0nd said:

Why not just... integrate the 'Ardboyz into the Ironjawz directly, change the lore so they're the true mainline forces of the Ironjawz, who are more grounded and pragmatic about their path of war and destruction (heavy armor, good killin' gear) compared to the crazy spiritualism of the Bonesplitterz? I love the 'Ardboyz kit, I think the models have aged well, and the heavy armor aesthetic melds well into the rest of the force.

Aye the Ardboys kit have aged well and could easily be expanded upon if wanted. My only "gripe" is that while it makes sense going from sensible ardboys orruks to crazy bonseplitterz, it doesn't so much from Ardboys to Ironjawz in my opinion. Why would the basic unit have better gear then the more elite unit, to me there is lacking a sense of progression that makes sense.

In the first case they get exposed to enough Waaagh energy to go completely crazy so that they want to run around the world chasing the biggest monsters, absorb their energy to get closer to perfection and throwing away the tools of civilization (well civilization for orruks that is) to achieve this.

In the second case they get so big, beefy and brutish that they cast off their high quality armour and weapons for metal scraps that they themselves beat into shape with their fists that ends up covering less of them. Why not then taking their old gear and beat that into shape? If this was the case then there would be some semblance of design cues in their armour between Brutes and Ardboys.

To me its clear that if Ardboys are kept as a concept that is introductory to Ironjawz then they need to mix the design cues in some form between the Brutes and Ardboys (or Ironjawz design cues with basic orruks) to tie the faction together as a whole.

That or option #3 of mine above where the Ardboys would end up as the elite option for that third faction! 😁

[Vasshpit]

@Wobbly Loving that logic!! 

Here's to hoping Gdubs approach to their future is in line with this. ✊

[Televiper11]

I’d prefer an option 4, leave Ardboyz as is and just expand the IJ range. Ardboyz & especially Ironskullz Boyz are great, serve a role that IJ need filled, and have a decent kit that’s too recent to retire.

[zilberfrid]

17 hours ago, Vasshpit said:

@zilberfrid Any idea on what to do to their warscroll to make them more distinct? Why keep them if they're just 2 wound brutes with a great command trait? Remove that and what's their point? They really shouldn't get a better bravery than brutes. 

Also when you say better models than later do you mean you prefer the Ardboyz (black orc) look to the Ironjawz look?

I do prefer their looks to Ardboyz to Ironjawz. Ironjawz look like they have concrete armour loosely in an orc shape with giant holes in it, Ardboyz look like they have metal armour fully encasing an orc.

I meant, if there is a problem with the warscroll, fix the warscroll. No need to reduce variety in an army that's already lacking it.

[Vasshpit]

@zilberfrid It is a pretty iconic look, I'll give ya that. And I do like it. if GW hadn't announced The Old World I'd feel a little less differently but I think they should be left there were they ARE the iconic bad mother- truckers they are and let this new setting take shape of it's own where true Jawz reign king!!

I hope Gdubs can figure a route to please all. 

[Keilerei]

I don‘t mind the Ardboys, but it’s weird that they are soooo much better (on the tabletop) than brutes, the guys they look up to. 
Make brutes a force to be reckoned with, like give em a 3+ save, and or -2 rend. I am fine with ardboys are being good, if they are supported by heroes but Brutes should be Killy by their own. 
 

or let’s get weird; Ardboys get promotions for killing. Maybe each ardboy model of a unit that struck down another model or made a killing blow will be taken off the Field and replaced by a Brute model. The more i think about it the more I like it...

EDIT: the Promotion thing is kind of similar to the Pink Horror mechanic, sure needs tweaking and Point adjustments but it’s super narrative and every unit tells a story this way in each game.  

Edited March 7, 2021 by Keilerei

[SunStorm]

From a model perspective I think they could do with a new kit as they don't really match the rest of the Ironjawz range.  It wouldn't be as bad if there were still other units that fit the same style,  but it's just the Ardboys and everything else is new. 

The unit I have is a mix of Underworlds and converted Blood Bowl orruks, which works well enough, but would prefer a proper multipart kit by GW.

On a side note the Black Orcs from the latest Blood Bowl set are really nice sculpts and much closer in size to the brutes than previous black orcs/ardboyz, even the more recent Ironskull's boyz.

 

[Vasshpit]

@SunStormThat whole BB Black orc team really are fantastic sculpts!!

I'd love to use them for conversions but not sure for what as I'm staying away from Ardboyz and to make them look like proper Jawz would require loads of conversion work, at least for me, to get them to the same design level as Brutes.

As a bit of a favor could you post Ghoulchewer next to a Megaboss if you have em? I've been super curious on size comparison.