Sylvaneth really need some love

[Gorthor21]

They should make a tree-revenant unit with bows and definitely keep up with the Greco-Roman themes with the satyrs and centaurs.  I’d love to see the naiads they mentioned in the from the deep short story 

https://ageofsigmar.lexicanum.com/wiki/Water_Spirits

 

[Saxon]

There is a major problem with AOS (and frankly all Games Workshop products). New armies leave older ones behind and points costs for what units can do become silly fast. 

Example 1) boingrot bounderz vs. hexwraiths or black knights

On 12/19/2020 at 4:28 AM, NinthMusketeer said:

Sylvaneth have some core design issues that need to be changed to make them properly functional;

Wyldwood reliance -- The army cannot rely on the woods for the majority of its allegiance abilities. Can it be a big part of them? Yes, and it should. But because of how varied tables can be in their terrain the ability to place an move woods is wildly inconsistent from game to game, and perhaps more importantly if the abilities become stronger to compensate then it starts to become extremely unfun to play against Sylvaneth.  And there almost certainly needs to be a spell which gives an existing terrain piece the wyldwood abilities until the start of next hero phase.

Elite Infantry -- Dryads work find as basic infantry, but they are trying to pull the weight of all infantry roles because of how the revenant warscrolls are. First off, revenants should be 2w infantry. They have a 32mm base, they are big, and Sylvaneth desperately need the wounds count for the army. Secondly, and hear me out on this; tree-revs need to lose their teleport ability. The problem is that when they have that ability they need to pay points for that ability, but it does not scale. A unit of 10 tree-revs is paying twice for their teleport ability, a unit of 15 is paying three times, yet that ability doesn't get any better for it. Same for martial memories; it needs to scale. Otherwise you have a unit that is only ever worth taking in 5-man, something that severely limits their potential uses in the army. They need to be hitting on 3's as well. Spite-revenants would be OK if they got an extra wound, but bonus attacks or bonus rend on the charge to better fill the roll of glass-cannon-berzerker would help the army a lot.

Rend -- This is a game-wide design issue rather than being specific to Sylvaneth but is particularly relevant to them. GW is very stingy with rend in AoS, and the game suffers for it. Units like revenants can't be given a 4+ save because that would become a 3+ save in cover, kurnoth hunters need to pay a fortune for their save re-rolls because again, in cover it is a 3+. Attacks with no rend can't reliably damage 3+ save units, and can barely damage 3+ rerollable at all.  But there's a lot of units out there without much rend at all. Sylvaneth pay more for their saves than others because as an army they can get cover so readily, but that makes them suck when the terrain isn't working out. If rend -1 and rend -2 were more of a thing they would not need to pay as much for the privilege and we could move dryads to a 4+ base (instead of +1 to saves when at 10 or more) as well as revenants.

But seriously, there are more units that deal mortal wounds than have rend -2. That's absolutely silly.

I've only played my sylvaneth a couple of times and i agree fully with this.

I feel like Sylvaneth got left behind with mortal wound dishing and command point generating abilities. Every other new army seems to be able to spam CP's. Look at Gloomspite that were released at the same time, they can generate a potato amount of CP's.

Also, whilst the groves are cool lore wise, they're very restrictive when it's hard to find a spell/command ability/battle trait combo that are all good. Generally 2 of the 3 are good and the 3rd is useless. 

I also feel like the bow Kurnoth are too swingy for their points and hit pretty poorly.  4+ for elite units that are 63 points each and have swingy damage is way over costed. They tend to show up in every list because they're the only ranged choice. 

[NinthMusketeer]

Sylvaneth were behind the moment the current battletome hit, if anything they are better off now after point decreases on a number of units.

Also Gloomspite are a bad example; bounders and stone trolls are the only overpowered units in a codex that is remarkably well balanced considering its massive roster.

You want power creep look at KO. The army just gets more for the same points as others.

[Gorthor21]

Considering whether kharadron where before they got the new battletome it’s understandable they got a little time in the sun.  
Here’s hoping that Sylvaneth get their time with out terrain shenanigans being the only way to feasibly win with them.

[Painbringer]

If things stay as they are (points and warscrolls), I would like only a couple of  changes - to allow Sylvaneth Wyldwoods to not block LOS for friendly Sylvaneth models and make them deal mortal wounds more often.
I personally do not feel that forests are dangerous enough - the enemies should really be at disadvantage when it comes to fighting near Wyldwoods. I also think this change would be very thematic as well. 
Now, this is really far-fetched, but it would be cool if Branchwych could collect soulpod/lamentiri for Treelords (if she is nearby when they die), so she can try to plant it near the Wyldwood and “summon” the Treelord again (not to mention it would be in line with fluff). There may be a limit on how many times you can do this, or there may be a chance of failure (you can grow a new treelord on 4+, for example).

Edited December 26, 2020 by Painbringer
Grammar and additional examples

[Beliman]

On 12/21/2020 at 7:28 PM, NinthMusketeer said:

You want power creep look at KO. The army just gets more for the same points as others.

Not sure about that.

Can you put an example? I know that KOs are really strong, but not because their points are so low (maybe gunhaulers) or because they do more damage/they can take a beating. In fact, I believe the most powerful warscroll is not even from our battletome (WLV).

Imho, KOs are so good because the game demands teleports/high movement, low drops and dmg from distance (magic/shooting) and KOs have just that.

[NinthMusketeer]

An army doesn't get to the top tourney slot with OP allegiance or OP units; it needs both.

[Beliman]

7 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:

An army doesn't get to the top tourney slot with OP allegiance or OP units; it needs both.

Can you put an example of an OP unit?  I can only think about Gunhaulers.

Thunderers are out-shooted by any other ranged specialists (I mean, tempest's eyes thunderers are better than KOs ones! But look at vanari archers or Irondrakes).

Endrinriggers or skywardens are far away from evocators, blightkings, hearthguard, eels, etc. Any elite melee unit is better doing or taking damage.

Frigatte is not even played (and Imo, it's not as bad as it seems, but you can't do any high damage trick).

Ironclad cost 480 and has less damage than any other high-dmg monster (KOS, Gotrek, bloodthirster, terrorgheist, etc.) and is not as thought as others ones (Megas, Stonehorns, etc.).

Arkanauts are awesome, but still, they are far away than other battlelines (har'boyz, sequitors, witch-elves, etc...).

Any support hero: we don't have any +1hit/+1 wound/+attacks/+1 saves/etc.  But they are the most played because we have one use artefacts and/or awesome traits (flarepistol, orb, spell in the bottle, collector, etc.).

Any dmg dealer hero: grudgebear endrinmaster with Zilfin-Staff or phosphorite bomblets? Again, Traits and artefacts.

Teleports are behind a tax (480/220/130+artifact). But they are broken because we have a combination of low-drop batallions, no rolls needed and the option to make it on the Hero-Phase once per game.

Imo, the most powerful warscroll is the gunhauler. It's really good for what it cost.

I can't think about any other KO's warscroll that is at the top of the foodchain. It's the whole package that makes KOs really, really strong in a game that demands what KOs excels.

Edited December 27, 2020 by Beliman

[Doko]

Idoneths after morathi are top together kharadrons and seraphon and only due to grossly oberpowers warscrolls. Because his alegiances are bad but tye warscrols of both eels,sharks,turtle and even avatars are as 30% undercosted 

[Beliman]

9 minutes ago, Doko said:

Idoneths after morathi are top together kharadrons and seraphon and only due to grossly oberpowers warscrolls. Because his alegiances are bad but tye warscrols of both eels,sharks,turtle and even avatars are as 30% undercosted 

Can't talk about Idoneth, but I must say that they had the symptome of being "written with AoS 2.0  in mind". Btw, spamming the same unit for whatever reason is not something that you want for your army (even if it's the most powerful list).

[Gorthor21]

1 hour ago, Doko said:

Idoneths after morathi are top together kharadrons and seraphon and only due to grossly oberpowers warscrolls. Because his alegiances are bad but tye warscrols of both eels,sharks,turtle and even avatars are as 30% undercosted 

I’m surprised you popped up in this thread complaining about idoneth.  Did someone you play against use the leviadon against you?

[Doko]

If you see my old post i allways complain about the most broken unit that need(and surprise allways have got it) nerf.

Dok wytches and his priest-got nerf

Slanesh keeper and free sumon-got nerf

Bonereaper +1 save-got nerf

 

I cant remember rigth now more ,but pretty sure there are more,so now the most broken unit of the game is the leviadon and kroak, so yes you gonna see me pop in posts untill next faq that gonna nerf kroak. and leviadon wont get the nerf because have been too much soon since morathi and they havent had time to nerf him in this faq, but gonna get i for sure in next faq.

 

I havent nothing against idoneths but i hate umbalanced units and rigth now the leviadon is a joke because his stats are from 500 points model and cost 340. Following the theme of this post, durthu cost 300 and have a damage output of 12 or 14 if close to forest but the turtle for 340 have 19\22 damage AND +1 save and hit auras and more than double move than durthu and fly.

 

So yes or durthu get a cut to 200 points or turtle get to 500 but both models cost around the same is easy to see how is umbalanced.

 

Edited December 27, 2020 by Doko

[Gorthor21]

Just seems like you were taking it really personal and in my experience people get passionate about a unit being broken when they get beaten by it and in a way they could not handle.  I’m sure the points for a lot of things are going to get adjusted in the new generals handbook as they always are.  Just don’t let it get to you especially if you don’t have to face it in games on a regular basis.

[NinthMusketeer]

I don't really want to get into the specifics of other armies because this thread is about Sylvaneth. 

[Popisdead]

On 12/17/2020 at 1:26 PM, xking said:

Sylvaneth need more units.

I was hoping this book they would get units that fleshed out the unit options in the Undergrounds warband.  Rev archers and GW Revs also.  Another variation of Branch,.. wych?  With just something different.  Why doesn't that model have some sort of 6th ed strangleroot style attack with his/her vines?  Seems like a lost chance on GWs part.

On 12/17/2020 at 1:01 PM, Santious said:

Hopefully in the new errata the sylvaneth points can be re done making them a bit more relative with new armies. For example take a look at  spirit if durthu at 300 points to the new lumineth model Avalenor at 360 points. Just look at their warscrolls and tell me if only a 60 point difference is justified.  

Shrugs.  Can you take 3 Avalenor?  Can you get an Avalenor up to 8 attacks?  I'm not saying a Spirit of Durthu is pointed properly at 300 points but across the board comparisons can be myopic.  

On 12/17/2020 at 2:02 PM, Doko said:

I could say tye same,compare the treelord mage vs sorceress in black dragon

The ancient is a bit long in the tooth (har har) and could use some sort of attention.  Low on attacks, low on casting, low on dmg output.  What the Treelord accomplishes in a sylvaneth army for the army and synergies is however different from what the black dragon does in CoS.  comparing straight across the board isn't really ideal

 

On 12/18/2020 at 12:29 AM, Jaskier said:

The big problem I've found - and I'm not sure if this is accurate for everyone, but it's my experience playing them - is that it's much harder to actually get all your Wyldwoods on the table nowadays thanks to the changes to placement restrictions, and the fact many armies now bring their own terrain pieces.

This is pretty much it.  And has been since 2005.  Terrain and getting the free forest out is hard.  

On 12/18/2020 at 1:30 AM, Greybeard86 said:

Centaurs, satyrs and similar things for Kurnoth. Less emphasis on trees and more on animals, I d say. 

Beastmasters!!!!

On 12/18/2020 at 1:36 AM, Fulcanelli said:

Just a curiosity, since I don't play Sylvaneth... why dryad models are so generally unappreciated? I actually think they're pretty ok 🙂
(But I also like oldhammer metal derpy-dryad, so...) 

They are from 2005.  15 1/2 year old model that lacks some of the more modern aesthetics of the current range.  GG went bye bye and I worry Dryads will do.  

On 12/18/2020 at 2:54 AM, El Syf said:

Let's not forget all Treelords have that nasty stomp ability that affects anything.

It isn't that reliable.  a 4+ vs 2+ in the same as making it feel like a 6+.

On 12/18/2020 at 4:10 AM, Kadeton said:

Sylvaneth have one of the most aggressive and lethal lists in the game, loading up a ton of buffs on a big unit of Hunters and getting an easy and devastating first-turn charge.

Mmmm... no.  You can chaff that out (sure alpha into 10 Ungors, have fun).  If it was honestly one of the most lethal lists you would see it played by more than Hugh Laurie who doesn't even play it really it was his only list usable.  

On 12/18/2020 at 5:34 AM, xking said:

Sylvaneth DON'T need Kurnothi, what they need is more Sylvaneth.      ...  Such as, a treelord with a bow that shoots giant arrows(does artillery level damage) ,  a treelord priest unit of  Alarielle , a treelord based on a fruit tree.

They already have Kurnothi.  The treelord shoots already, let's not give him a bow.  But a Lady of the Vines would be cool

On 12/18/2020 at 10:47 PM, NinthMusketeer said:

Tree kin! Let's get more of the 'dead wood' look back, there is enough of the 'graceful' wood growth of the treelord & hunters!

There was some awesome lore for Treekin in the 8th ed book.  Granted KHs were the plastic kit for TK so,.. while they had a warscroll for both, I mean,.. pretty obvious.  I've converted my Treekin to have KH weapons and put them on larger bases with some bitz to bulk them up.

[Gorthor21]

3 hours ago, Popisdead said:

I was hoping this book they would get units that fleshed out the unit options in the Undergrounds warband.  Rev archers and GW Revs also.  Another variation of Branch,.. wych?  With just something different.  Why doesn't that model have some sort of 6th ed strangleroot style attack with his/her vines?  Seems like a lost chance on GWs part.

Shrugs.  Can you take 3 Avalenor?  Can you get an Avalenor up to 8 attacks?  I'm not saying a Spirit of Durthu is pointed properly at 300 points but across the board comparisons can be myopic.  

The ancient is a bit long in the tooth (har har) and could use some sort of attention.  Low on attacks, low on casting, low on dmg output.  What the Treelord accomplishes in a sylvaneth army for the army and synergies is however different from what the black dragon does in CoS.  comparing straight across the board isn't really ideal

 

This is pretty much it.  And has been since 2005.  Terrain and getting the free forest out is hard.  

Beastmasters!!!!

They are from 2005.  15 1/2 year old model that lacks some of the more modern aesthetics of the current range.  GG went bye bye and I worry Dryads will do.  

It isn't that reliable.  a 4+ vs 2+ in the same as making it feel like a 6+.

Mmmm... no.  You can chaff that out (sure alpha into 10 Ungors, have fun).  If it was honestly one of the most lethal lists you would see it played by more than Hugh Laurie who doesn't even play it really it was his only list usable.  

They already have Kurnothi.  The treelord shoots already, let's not give him a bow.  But a Lady of the Vines would be cool

There was some awesome lore for Treekin in the 8th ed book.  Granted KHs were the plastic kit for TK so,.. while they had a warscroll for both, I mean,.. pretty obvious.  I've converted my Treekin to have KH weapons and put them on larger bases with some bitz to bulk them up.

I would like it if they brought treekin back in some way.  The whole elven spirits that became one with athel Loren was cool.  More like an animating spirit then a physical form like the dryads.  They would assemble bodies before a fight from deadwood.

I put mine on 40mm bases, should they have bigger bases?

Edited January 15, 2021 by Gorthor21

[NinthMusketeer]

Bonus points if it is using souls of wanderers who died post-necroquake, Alarielle both deeming them 'worthy' enough to join the Sylvaneth in spirit and thinking it is good fun to spite Nagash for what a terd he's been lately.

[JackStreicher]

On 12/27/2020 at 3:16 PM, Doko said:

Idoneths after morathi are top together kharadrons and seraphon and only due to grossly oberpowers

Idoneth Are Fine.

[rosa]

Idoneth is not fine and - sorry to say - really unfun to play against.

Unrendable 1+ safe units are just wrong.

 

[Doko]

Yes save 2 invulnerable is a joke and must be nerfed i hope in this faq

 

Turtle +1 allways

When charge +1

Turn 1 of tide +1 of cover

So in turn 1 they have a invulnerable save of 2 if you charge them(cover) or if they charge you(tank eels pasive)

 

This is the number 1 thing that must be nerfed,they must be as EVERY other ethereal unit of the game and ignore positive and negative modifiers

And yes tournament data show idoneths as tye number 1 army rigth now even more broken than kharadrons

 

Btw i just get a drycha and i gonna get the warcry sylvaneth box also, in a start as add to my living city but i plan do it a full sylva army.

 

I have been reading the tome and every scroll and yes they have any problems.

Kurnoths melle have the damage of 160 points units,but it is hard put them that cost i guess due to be more sturdy than these points 

Ranged kurnoths also would be better at 160

Durthu 300 points and that low movement is a joke if we compare him to the idometh turtle that do as 6 more damage,triple movement and a overpower aura for only 40 points. Around 250 points would be better

Tree lord ancients,one spell and around 6 damage is poor for 250, i would put him 200

Drycha seems fine to me,one spell,and good damage,i guess it could be 280 

Allarielle 600(420 if we take in count the free treelord) seems ok,but if we see kroak ....i guess she could be 550

Driads are great and maybe undercosted if they are in trees and are +15 models,but obercosted without this. I think could cost 80

The others units are fine.

Also the placement of terrain seems a problem and hard to balance it, i guess change the reliance on trees would be the best before do easier put them.

Edited January 16, 2021 by Doko

[Beliman]

I'm not used to play vs any IDK but can I ask what combo makes the Leviadons 1+save unrendable?
I know that they are hard to take down, but 1+ save that can't be modified is disgusting to play against.

[rosa]

Ishlaen Guardy for Example.

Even with the leviadon alone they have a 2+ unrendable. First turn 1+ (when they have charged).

Edited January 17, 2021 by rosa

[Doko]

Yes i meant the eels tanks

[dmorley21]

Sylvaneth could use more models, sure, but I really think along with Nighthaunt that they are one of the of two armies most in need of an update via Broken Realms. They're not an army where changing the points will fix things IMO. Whether it's new allegiance abilities, subfactions, or warscrolls - they need more change than just points. 

[Popisdead]

On 1/14/2021 at 4:59 PM, Gorthor21 said:

I would like it if they brought treekin back in some way.  

They are back.  And better.