Winter FAQs & Errata - 2019

[Laststand]

So rend and extra damage gone, rerolls with blades out and changed to 3+ to hit instead of 4+. 

New add in is extra wound for each wound roll of 6.

Weapon choices changed so you can only have blades or staves (that will upset a lot of people with monks built with both)

Staves +1 attack

Standard bearers and harbringers changed to 1 in 10 from 1 in 20. 

This will certainly be different (and quicker) to play. The unit is still very powerful but now good in smaller units of 20 rather than blocks of 40.

I think this is quite well thought out rather than a complete points nerf which would have killed of clan pestilence armies. 

 

I am sure some clever Rat will do the math on the damage output changes but I suspect its approx 25%.

 

 

[gronnelg]

Finally the warscroll! Can someone mathhammer the new warscroll? Which is better - staves of blades? 
@Ineffectual Clawlord ?

Edit: Oh wait guys.... From the wording it seems that even with blade and stave, you only use one the attack characteristics, instead of both as it was before?

Edited December 18, 2019 by gronnelg

[Dolomyte]

2 hours ago, Primes said:

So, Hearthguard Berzerkers are now 400 for 20 making them easier to efficiently use than before, right?

Could anyone explain how those are comparable to say 20 Libs for 400 or 20 Chaos Warriors for 400 or 10 Evocators for 440 etc.? Maybe I am overestimating Berzerkers due to some very bad experiences.

They are tough when they are part of the lords of the lodge battalion with three hero’s buffing them for sure. But your looking at 600 points of models buffing them. So you can’t compare them apples to apples against another 400 point unit. 
 

Until nerfed the 20 warriors destroy them then in combat when supported by a nurgle demon prince since every roll of 6 to hit is going to bounce back d3 mortal wounds at them (or 3d3 if three demon princes which is roughly the same as the support the fyreslayers have) 

[sal4m4nd3r]

It appears they took all of about 23 seconds to balance Nurgle, one of the factions thats needs re-balancing the most. They simply "ctrl+a" the battalions and -60..? How confusing. Plague cyst is uninspired, boring, and ineffective.. yet revieces the same discount as blight cyst. And Thricefold needed a point reduction as well? Now its only 10 points more then just buying a CP. Adding even more evidence to the fact they couldn't be bothered to balance this faction properly is that fact that they made kings/pusgoyles/lord of plagues unmodified 6s but ignored blades of putrefaction. Its transparent that this was rushed and given much thought.

Edited December 18, 2019 by sal4m4nd3r

[sal4m4nd3r]

12 minutes ago, Dolomyte said:

They are tough when they are part of the lords of the lodge battalion with three hero’s buffing them for sure. But your looking at 600 points of models buffing them. So you can’t compare them apples to apples against another 400 point unit. 
 

Until nerfed the 20 warriors destroy them then in combat when supported by a nurgle demon prince since every roll of 6 to hit is going to bounce back d3 mortal wounds at them (or 3d3 if three demon princes which is roughly the same as the support the fyreslayers have) 

You know the HB would laugh at the warriors even with d3 mortal wounds bouncing back..right? EVEN IF all got into combat to swing, that would be about 6d3 mortal wounds, which on average is about 12 damage. half of that is negated. so 3 HB die AFTER they have fought twice before you had a chance to even pick a unit to activate and those 20 warriors are blended. 

[whispersofblood]

3 minutes ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

You know the HB would laugh at the warriors even with d3 mortal wounds bouncing back..right? EVEN IF all got into combat to swing, that would be about 6d3 mortal wounds, which on average is about 12 damage. half of that is negated. so 3 HB die AFTER they have fought twice before you had a chance to even pick a unit to activate and those 20 warriors are blended. 

I've come to the sad realization that most people who talk Warhammer have no idea what most things in the game do. 

S2D players think plague touched plus Daemon Prince is good buts it is a simple rule to bypass, and even when you don't bypass it, in the scope of AoS it isn't scary at all.

[Dolomyte]

My point was more that your not comparing hearthguard to warriors, your comparing 1000 pts of hearthguard a battalion and hero’s to 400 points of warriors. Army composition matters. Kill off the three dwarf hero’s and suddenly the hearthguard are just ok. Warriors are not far off from hearthguard when buffed with 600 points of heroes . 
 

 

[whispersofblood]

1 minute ago, Dolomyte said:

My point was more that your not comparing hearthguard to warriors, your comparing 1000 pts of hearthguard a battalion and hero’s to 400 points of warriors. Army composition matters. Kill off the three dwarf hero’s and suddenly the hearthguard are just ok. Warriors are not far off from hearthguard when buffed with 600 points of heroes . 
 

 

You are talking about 800 points of warriors, daemon Prince and warscroll battalion. And they still don't do much to the HGB. It would be easier to just admit you were mistaken. HGB make chaos warriors look like goblins, it's just factual.

[Dolomyte]

50 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

I've come to the sad realization that most people who talk Warhammer have no idea what most things in the game do. 

S2D players think plague touched plus Daemon Prince is good buts it is a simple rule to bypass, and even when you don't bypass it, in the scope of AoS it isn't scary at all.

Your arrogance is an unappealing trait. Don’t be dismissive of people try to learn from them. Kindness gets further in life. 

as for your comment about my 800 pts I did not say a battalion. I specifically just said the warriors and DP, and i was wrong, The most common zerker build is pole arms so figure of your 40 attacks 6 sixes doing 12 mw to warriors and 12 back to hearthguard. Four get shrugged by warriors and six get shrugged by hearthguard. Warriors then get to save rest of wounds on reroll able 4 up and hearthguard on a 5up 4up (yes can be much better depending on buffs but slaves have other buffs as well if we want to truly play it out) so warriors have the advantage there. It would come down to dice and the game up to that point. 

+++ MOD EDIT +++ You know why - don't do it again...

Edited December 18, 2019 by RuneBrush

[whispersofblood]

19 minutes ago, Dolomyte said:

Your arrogance is an unappealing trait. Don’t be dismissive of people try to learn from them. Kindness gets further in life. 

as for your comment about my 800 pts I did not say a battalion. I specifically just said the warriors and DP, and i was wrong, The most common zerker build is pole arms so figure of your 40 attacks 6 sixes doing 12 mw to warriors and 12 back to hearthguard. Four get shrugged by warriors and six get shrugged by hearthguard. Warriors then get to save rest of wounds on reroll able 4 up and hearthguard on a 5up 4up (yes can be much better depending on buffs but slaves have other buffs as well if we want to truly play it out) so warriors have the advantage there. It would come down to dice and the game up to that point. It’s not however “omg warriors get raped” nor is it the opposite as I incorrectly presented. 

It may come across as arrogance, it's not. I am assured because I've done the research and the math. Broad axes are the most consistent dmg wise and meta wise. They are only worse against saves that ignore rend. They also just happen to bypass your argument, so it is interesting that you assumed the later. 

Also you have included none of the buffs the hero gives them, their free terrain piece or their shooting attacks. 

There is clear daylight between the units strictly on their warscroll and that only gets bigger when you include army synergies. Namely it's telling that a competitive S2D build may very well include 0 chaos warrior units in very short order, and the units being taken instead aren't better than HGB. 

+++ MOD EDIT +++ Tidied up comment from another post

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by RuneBrush

[SwampHeart]

1 hour ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

You know the HB would laugh at the warriors even with d3 mortal wounds bouncing back..right? EVEN IF all got into combat to swing, that would be about 6d3 mortal wounds, which on average is about 12 damage. half of that is negated. so 3 HB die AFTER they have fought twice before you had a chance to even pick a unit to activate and those 20 warriors are blended. 

Not sure I follow this math but maybe I'm missing something, my napkin math (just averages) says the following (this is just on the HB warscroll and I'm assuming re-rolls of 1 somewhere).

Broadaxe - 41 attacks - 3/3/-1/2
23 Hits (20 hits and additional 3 from re-rolled 1s)
12 Wounds
6 Unsaved - 12 damage - 6 dead warriors
12 dead warriors after double fight

Poleaxe - 41 Attacks 3/3/-/1
23 Hits (same math as above) - 12 MWs from 6 to 6s to hit
12 Wounds (same as above)
1 Unsaved Wound
6.5 Dead Warriors - 13 after a double fight


I'm assuming a warshrine buff + oracular visions + aura of nurgle on the warriors (looking strictly at durability) - this is 280 points in buffing characters (which I believe is similar to the HB buffing compliement). That said I admit maybe I've missed something here that drastically alters the numbers. 

Out of curiosity if you have both possible 'on 6s take MW' buffs on the warriors the HBs look like they'd take 7D3 (assuming re-roll 1s) for 14 MWs, 7 after save. And then an additional 2 MWs during wounds for 1 MW after save. The result would be 4 dead HBs per activation - so not an amazing amount of defensive output but at least notching out  20% of the unit per time they swing. Granted this all factors in more points (a DP and the Battalion) so its not a like for like but looks like an OK shake. 

Again I present all of the above with the caveat that what I know about HBs is they will fight twice with LoTL and that they presumably have re-roll 1s to hit from some source. 

EDIT - Math was incorrect. The above also doesn't include the MW shrug that Shield warriors would get against poleaxes. 

Edited December 18, 2019 by SwampHeart

[RuneBrush]

+++ MOD HAT +++

Ahem - please can we stay civil if we don't agree on something.  Thanks...

[Dolomyte]

16 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

It may come across as arrogance, it's not. I am assured because I've done the research and the math. Broad axes are the most consistent dmg wise and meta wise. They are only worse against saves that ignore rend. They also just happen to bypass your argument, so it is interesting that you assumed the later. 

Also you have included none of the buffs the hero gives them, their free terrain piece or their shooting attacks. 

It's very rare that a unit gets "destroyed” in AoS. But there is clear daylight between the units strictly on their warscroll and that only gets bigger when you include army synergies. Namely it's telling that a competitive S2D build may very well include 0 chaos warrior units in very short order, and the units being taken instead aren't better than HGB. 

 

Every GT that I have seen them do well in which granted it’s not a ton, has been poleaxes. So I’m going off anecdotal evidence as opposed to mathematical. The other lists don’t seem to be performing as well? Not sure why. 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Dolomyte

[Spears]

I think you can strip the oracular visions out for the purposes of napkinhammer, the warriors innately have a save re roll at this unit size. 

Warriors with shields also shrug a third of the poleaxe MWs.

That said I think your maths is out unless I am looking at the wrong warscroll, Hearthguard hit on 3s.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Spears

[Forrix]

3 minutes ago, Dolomyte said:

Every GT that I have seen them do well in which granted it’s not a ton, has been poleaxes. So I’m going off anecdotal evidence as opposed to mathematical. The other lists don’t seem to be performing as well? Not sure why. 

Fyreslayers don't have much mortal wound output, especially against singular models, other than those poleaxes. In my meta at least 3+ ethereal save big monsters are very common and poleaxes are the only reliable way I've found to deal with them. Plus, they were handy against Nighthaunt players back when we had them.

[whispersofblood]

8 minutes ago, Dolomyte said:

Every GT that I have seen them do well in which granted it’s not a ton, has been poleaxes. So I’m going off anecdotal evidence as opposed to mathematical. The other lists don’t seem to be performing as well? Not sure why. 

Old builds? But realistically the reasons you would take poleaxes don't exist, or the factions are hardly relevent and even then you can get by without it.

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, Dolomyte said:

They are tough when they are part of the lords of the lodge battalion with three hero’s buffing them for sure. But your looking at 600 points of models buffing them. So you can’t compare them apples to apples against another 400 point unit. 
 

Until nerfed the 20 warriors destroy them then in combat when supported by a nurgle demon prince since every roll of 6 to hit is going to bounce back d3 mortal wounds at them (or 3d3 if three demon princes which is roughly the same as the support the fyreslayers have) 

I'm not going to do it for you but try the druchi combat calculator here:

http://tools.druchii.net/AoS-Combat-Calculator.php

Just set up the nubmber of attacks and the defence and you're golden. 

[Dolomyte]

4 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

Old builds? But realistically the reasons you would take poleaxes don't exist, or the factions are hardly relevent and even then you can get by without it.

I would figure with the impending swarm of Ossiarch armies poleaxes would still stay relevant, as it’s way more reliable then axes versus petrifex . 

[whispersofblood]

Just now, Dolomyte said:

I would figure with the impending swarm of Ossiarch armies poleaxes would still stay relevant, as it’s way more reliable then axes versus petrifex . 

I would say at that attack volume dmg 2 is still more relevent. They also have ways of improving rend when they need to, and should take almost no dmg themselves. OB v FS is a grind so you may as well build to settle in. 

[SwampHeart]

21 minutes ago, Spears said:

That said I think your maths is out unless I am looking at the wrong warscroll, Hearthguard hit on 3s.

You're correct, I missed that the nurgle aura is -1 from shooting rather than a blanket -1. Going to edit the post with revision. 

[SwampHeart]

8 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

I would say at that attack volume dmg 2 is still more relevent.

Is it though? OBR only have a 6+ deathless save against MW poleaxes and with full re-rolls you're getting very very few d2 swings actually through. I haven't done actual math but having played OBR a few times now I can't imagine that just trying to get damage through via failed combat saves is the correct play. 

[whispersofblood]

19 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

Is it though? OBR only have a 6+ deathless save against MW poleaxes and with full re-rolls you're getting very very few d2 swings actually through. I haven't done actual math but having played OBR a few times now I can't imagine that just trying to get damage through via failed combat saves is the correct play. 

I think the key here is pumping your rend via runes and dealing with them all at once. Or pinning them with magmadroth. 

[SwampHeart]

1 minute ago, whispersofblood said:

I think the key here is pumping your rend via runes and dealing with them all at once. Or pinning them with magmadroth. 

Even then its rend 2 against a 5+ with full re-rolls. Eyeballing it looks like 20 fighting twice would do about 31 wounds to Petrifex Elite Mortek with their full re-roll up. 

[whispersofblood]

2 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

Even then its rend 2 against a 5+ with full re-rolls. Eyeballing it looks like 20 fighting twice would do about 31 wounds to Petrifex Elite Mortek with their full re-roll up. 

That's what you need though isn't it? Unless you believe 40s will stick around?

[SwampHeart]

2 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

That's what you need though isn't it? Unless you believe 40s will stick around?

A big unit of 40 is definitely where its at, my biggest concern is making sure you get the timing right on the -2 rend crash (also I forgot to factor in deathless minion saves above so it reduces to 26 dead) . It may still be the right answer but it just feels like a bad grind, especially if they get one of the catapults off on a character early.