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Fights First/Fights Last after December FAQ


drkrash

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I think this new "clarification" is more opaque than before.  Let me propose a common scenario in our club: Khorne Bloodlords vs. Sylvaneth.  Bloodlords General attacks at the start of the combat phase.  Spirit of Durthu does a stomp at the start of the combat phase that makes a unit fight last.

Prior to the December FAQ, whoever's turn it was took priority.  On Khorne's turn, he'd strike first.  On Sylvaneth's turn, the stomp could go off before Khorne attacked first, dumping him to the end of the sequence.  Pretty simple.

Has this new FAQ changed that in any way? Because if effects are resolved in player turn order, it seems the above scenario is now *reversed.*  For example, Khorne player turn: General attacks first because it's his turn.  At "start of phase," Durthu successfully stomps.  That effect occurred second, so now Khorne General attacks last in his combat phase.  However, on Sylvaneth player turn, stomp goes off first because it's his turn, and then Khorne supercedes the effect and goes first because it is applied second.

Am I reading this right? Is this as counter-intuitive as it seems?

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My understand is that things like the Helm of Many Eyes, Gristlegore command trait, Khorne Bloodlord etc. are applied at the start of the battle so they're always the "first applied" ability, anything which is then an activated ability, i.e. Locus or Durthu stomp is always applied 2nd so will always take precedence (note that Locus has specific rules for dealing with things that fight first).

Of course in the case of Durthu's stomp the player who's turn it is matters, if it is the Khorne player's turn they get to fight before the stomp is used. If it is the Sylvaneth player's turn they get to stomp first and it send the Bloodlord to the back of the queue

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5 hours ago, drkrash said:

I think this new "clarification" is more opaque than before.  Let me propose a common scenario in our club: Khorne Bloodlords vs. Sylvaneth.  Bloodlords General attacks at the start of the combat phase.  Spirit of Durthu does a stomp at the start of the combat phase that makes a unit fight last.

Prior to the December FAQ, whoever's turn it was took priority.  On Khorne's turn, he'd strike first.  On Sylvaneth's turn, the stomp could go off before Khorne attacked first, dumping him to the end of the sequence.  Pretty simple.

Has this new FAQ changed that in any way? Because if effects are resolved in player turn order, it seems the above scenario is now *reversed.*  For example, Khorne player turn: General attacks first because it's his turn.  At "start of phase," Durthu successfully stomps.  That effect occurred second, so now Khorne General attacks last in his combat phase.  However, on Sylvaneth player turn, stomp goes off first because it's his turn, and then Khorne supercedes the effect and goes first because it is applied second.

Am I reading this right? Is this as counter-intuitive as it seems?

How is the new clarification different from the old Beasts of Chaos Designers´ Commentary on the interaction between Wildfire Taurus and High Tide?

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41 minutes ago, Maxi99 said:

Where does it specifically give an example of fights first vs last? 

The only example I could find in the faqs was locus of diversion vs smashin and bashin which isn’t fights last vs last.

"Q: If two abilities apply to a unit at the same time but are contradictory, how do you determine which ability is used? A: If two abilities that apply to a unit are contradictory and cannot both be used, the ability that was applied second takes precedence. For example, the ‘Locus of Diversion’ battle trait forces a unit to fight at the end of the combat phase and is used at the end of the charge phase, while the Ironjawz ‘Smashing and Bashing’ battle trait allows a unit to fight immediately and is used in the combat phase. If both of these abilities applied to an Ironjawz unit at the same time, since the ‘Smashing and Bashing’ battle trait would be applied second, the Ironjawz unit would fight immediately instead of at the end of the combat phase. Note that this only occurs when it is impossible to use both abilities. For example, if one ability gave a unit a hit modifier of +1 and another ability gave the same unit a hit modifier of -1, both would be applied (and effectively cancel each other out)."

(https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/8f9bd00c.pdf, page 8 )

 

It is exactly the same ruling as in the old Beasts of Chaos Commentary.

 

11 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

As far as I'm aware, the player whose turn it is chooses the order, so in the Bloodlords General v Durthu scenario for example, let the Durthu player trigger his stomp before you trigger the General's ability.

No. See above.

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48 minutes ago, Isotop said:

"Q: If two abilities apply to a unit at the same time but are contradictory, how do you determine which ability is used? A: If two abilities that apply to a unit are contradictory and cannot both be used, the ability that was applied second takes precedence. For example, the ‘Locus of Diversion’ battle trait forces a unit to fight at the end of the combat phase and is used at the end of the charge phase, while the Ironjawz ‘Smashing and Bashing’ battle trait allows a unit to fight immediately and is used in the combat phase. If both of these abilities applied to an Ironjawz unit at the same time, since the ‘Smashing and Bashing’ battle trait would be applied second, the Ironjawz unit would fight immediately instead of at the end of the combat phase. Note that this only occurs when it is impossible to use both abilities. For example, if one ability gave a unit a hit modifier of +1 and another ability gave the same unit a hit modifier of -1, both would be applied (and effectively cancel each other out)."

(https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/8f9bd00c.pdf, page 8 )

 

It is exactly the same ruling as in the old Beasts of Chaos Commentary.

 

No. See above.

All that is confirming is that the second ability takes precedence.  What I am saying is that the player whose turn it is determines the order that abilities apply so can choose to trigger their ability second and thus ensure their ability takes precedence.  

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1 minute ago, Aelfric said:

All that is confirming is that the second ability takes precedence.  What I am saying is that the player whose turn it is determines the order that abilities apply so can choose to trigger their ability second and thus ensure their ability takes precedence.  

What makes you think that the active player gets to determine the order however they want?

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17 minutes ago, Isotop said:

What makes you think that the active player gets to determine the order however they want?

I have double-checked the core rules and FAQ and concede that I was mistaken.  It does say that the player whose turn it is do their abilities first; they just decide the order in which they do their own, not the order between them and their opponent.  My mistake.  Thanks for pointing it out.  Up to now, It hasn't been an issue, but this has muddied the waters - sounds like a case of unintended consequences.

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6 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

I have double-checked the core rules and FAQ and concede that I was mistaken.  It does say that the player whose turn it is do their abilities first; they just decide the order in which they do their own, not the order between them and their opponent.  My mistake.  Thanks for pointing it out.  Up to now, It hasn't been an issue, but this has muddied the waters - sounds like a case of unintended consequences.

OK, this is my point.  So if it is the Bloodlords player turn, his attacks would occur first rather than Durthu's stomp.  If it is the Sylvaneth turn, they'd get to roll for Durthu's stomp before the Bloodlords General attacked.  That was the rule based on a priority article put out by GW (link available on request).

BUT this new FAQ uses the example of Locus of Diversion and Smashing and Bashing.  The locus specifically says it occurs in the Charge phase and then S&B occurs in the combat phase.  Clearly a case where the *new* effect takes place instead of the *previous* effect.

So does this new ruling change what happens when BOTH effects occur "At the Start of the Combat Phase"? Do the previously released priority rules still apply? OR - as I suggested in my original post - is it the counter-intuitive effect that whoever's turn it is LOSES priority to the other player (which is stupid)? 

"It's my turn.  Start of the combat phase, I attack first."

"At the start of the combat phase, I can make you attack last."

"OK, but since it's my turn, I attack first."

"Yeah, but since it's not my turn, my attack last effect comes after yours and you now have to attack last even though it's your turn."

See the confusion here?

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39 minutes ago, drkrash said:

OK, this is my point.  So if it is the Bloodlords player turn, his attacks would occur first rather than Durthu's stomp.  If it is the Sylvaneth turn, they'd get to roll for Durthu's stomp before the Bloodlords General attacked.  That was the rule based on a priority article put out by GW (link available on request).

BUT this new FAQ uses the example of Locus of Diversion and Smashing and Bashing.  The locus specifically says it occurs in the Charge phase and then S&B occurs in the combat phase.  Clearly a case where the *new* effect takes place instead of the *previous* effect.

So does this new ruling change what happens when BOTH effects occur "At the Start of the Combat Phase"? Do the previously released priority rules still apply? OR - as I suggested in my original post - is it the counter-intuitive effect that whoever's turn it is LOSES priority to the other player (which is stupid)? 

"It's my turn.  Start of the combat phase, I attack first."

"At the start of the combat phase, I can make you attack last."

"OK, but since it's my turn, I attack first."

"Yeah, but since it's not my turn, my attack last effect comes after yours and you now have to attack last even though it's your turn."

See the confusion here?

Ok - so both abilities happen at the start of the combat phase and the player whose turn it is triggers their ability first.  So, if the Bloodlord General's ability says he fights at the start of the combat phase then logically, he would do the fighting (which is what the ability is) before Durthu can stomp because his ability works first. 

Using the same logic, though, this also means that if it is the Sylvaneth player's turn, he triggers Durthu's stomp but then the Bloodlord General's ability would trigger second thus over-riding the stomp. 

It would appear that Durthu's stomp cannot affect a unit that has an "attack at the start of the combat phase" ability. 

This would seem to imply that, according to this ruling, no "strike last" ability can stop a "Strike first" ability, whosever turn it is.  

Not sure that this is the intent, but this appears to be the result of the FAQ.

 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

Ok - so both abilities happen at the start of the combat phase and the player whose turn it is triggers their ability first.  So, if the Bloodlord General's ability says he fights at the start of the combat phase then logically, he would do the fighting (which is what the ability is) before Durthu can stomp because his ability works first. 

Using the same logic, though, this also means that if it is the Sylvaneth player's turn, he triggers Durthu's stomp but then the Bloodlord General's ability would trigger second thus over-riding the stomp. 

It would appear that Durthu's stomp cannot affect a unit that has an "attack at the start of the combat phase" ability. 

This would seem to imply that, according to this ruling, no "strike last" ability can stop a "Strike first" ability, whosever turn it is.  

Not sure that this is the intent, but this appears to be the result of the FAQ.

 

 

 

Except that Durthu's stomp is *also* a "Start of Phase" ability, which is why I assumed whoever's turn it is would get priority.

It *seems* the FAQ clarification only applies when these effects are applied in different phases, or different sub-phases in the case of the combat phase (i.e., "Start of Phase," "Combat Phase," and "End of Phase."

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2 minutes ago, drkrash said:

Except that Durthu's stomp is *also* a "Start of Phase" ability, which is why I assumed whoever's turn it is would get priority.

It *seems* the FAQ clarification only applies when these effects are applied in different phases, or different sub-phases in the case of the combat phase (i.e., "Start of Phase," "Combat Phase," and "End of Phase."

Well, the example they give is of opposing abilities triggered in different phases, but the rule that the one "applied second takes precedence" applies to all situations, even when two abilities happen in the same sub-phase; and which goes second is determined by the preceding FAQ ruling.

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7 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

Well, the example they give is of opposing abilities triggered in different phases, but the rule that the one "applied second takes precedence" applies to all situations, even when two abilities happen in the same sub-phase; and which goes second is determined by the preceding FAQ ruling.

So are you suggesting that the "winning" effect would be whoever's turn it is *not,* as I noted in my dialogue above?

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1 minute ago, drkrash said:

So are you suggesting that the "winning" effect would be whoever's turn it is *not,* as I noted in my dialogue above?

At the end of the day, it is entirely dependant on the wording of each ability.  Durthu's ability for example says on a 4+ a unit fights at the end of the fight phase.  But if the opponent's ability says it strikes at the start of the combat phase, then surely that fight happens before the stomp can be triggered.  If it is the Sylvaneth player's turn, then the stomp will be over-ruled because the opponent's ability to fight at the start will apply after the stomp and, therefore according to the new rule, will take precedence.  

It appears that a fight at the start can't be stopped because it triggers immediately in your turn, which means you fight, and comes second in your opponent's turn giving it precedence and thus you fight.  

The only way of stopping it, as far as I can see, would be an ability that meant the unit in question can't use abilities that phase.  Something akin to the Wanderers artifact "Forget-me-knot" for example.

GW have introduced time-travel into the system, with all the ensuing contradictions of a sci-fi B-movie.  I wonder how deep the hole will get?

This does need to be cleaned up.

 

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7 hours ago, Aelfric said:

Well, the example they give is of opposing abilities triggered in different phases, but the rule that the one "applied second takes precedence" applies to all situations, even when two abilities happen in the same sub-phase; and which goes second is determined by the preceding FAQ ruling.

This the point exactly, the new faq is that a fight immediately rule takes precedence over fights last. Good examples are smashin and bashin, or tyrants of blood. Did everyone not play this already? 

Do we know how old that beasts of chaos faq is? Is it pre warcom article?

Also, it might be worth everyone emailing them to make it clear again.

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Seems really unclear. It could be neat if the intention is for the Stomp to go off if the Khorne choses to go first. Would add some more tactical decision making into taking the double turn or not. Based on the replies in this thread, the FAQ certainly needs some clarification.

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Here's another example that is confusing to me:

Helm of Many Eyes (Slaves to Darkness/Despoilers artifact): The bearer and their mount (if they have one) fight at the start of the combat phase if they charged in the same turn, but cannot fight again in that phase unless an ability or spell allows them to fight more than once.

When is this rule considered to take effect? The condition it's looking for takes place during the charge phase, but the act of checking presumably takes place at the beginning of the combat phase. I could imagine two separate interpretations of its interaction with Locus of Diversion:

  • The unit charged, and then Locus of Diversion was applied at the end of the charge phase, so the unit fights last.
  • Locus of Diversion was applied, and then we checked whether the unit charged this turn at the start of the combat phase, which it had, so it fights first.
Edited by CJPT
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1 hour ago, Maxi99 said:

This the point exactly, the new faq is that a fight immediately rule takes precedence over fights last. Good examples are smashin and bashin, or tyrants of blood. Did everyone not play this already? 

Do we know how old that beasts of chaos faq is? Is it pre warcom article?

The Beasts of Chaos FAQ came at the same point as the Starting First/Last situation was introduced (and the same time the Ability of Idoneth Deepkin was changed), and the now released corebook FAQ is basicly a copy & paste of that FAQ.

But there is something interesting their, that I just realized, when I looked again at that example.

Back then, when Fighting first was introduced the High Tide rule of the Deepkin was changed to this:

Quote

‘In this battle round, units with the Tides of Death battle
trait fight at the start of the combat phase.’

The effect of the Whirlwind of Destruction is triggered after the model has moved and in the example it maked the Idoneth attack last, so the High Tide rule is considered to get into effect at the Start of the Turn not at the Start of the Combat phase.

 

10 minutes ago, CJPT said:

Here's another example that is confusing to me:

Helm of Many Eyes (Slaves to Darkness/Despoilers artifact): The bearer and their mount (if they have one) fight at the start of the combat phase if they charged in the same turn, but cannot fight again in that phase unless an ability or spell allows them to fight more than once.

When is this rule considered to take effect? The condition it's looking for takes place during the charge phase, but the act of checking presumably takes place at the beginning of the charge phase. I could imagine two separate interpretations of its interaction with Locus of Diversion:

  • The unit charged, and then Locus of Diversion was applied, so the unit fights last.
  • Locus of Diversion was applied, and then we checked whether the unit charged this turn, which it had, so it fights first.

After the model must have charged (so the charge must be successful) the effect would activate after the model made its Chargemove.

 

What is the exact wording of the Khorne rule? Is there a point in which phase it is activated, if nothing is stated it would be activated at the start of the turn like High Tide, and than can be overridden.

Edited by EMMachine
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21 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

What is the exact wording of the Khorne rule? Is there a point in which phase it is activated, if nothing is stated it would be activated at the start of the turn like High Tide, and than can be overridden.

There are two rules for Khorne, the blood lords arrogant Halo of Blood, and the Tyrants of Blood battalion rule, Fierce Rivals.

Halo of Blood - The beater fights at the start of the combat phase, before the players pick any other units to fight in that combat phase.

Fierce Rivals - After a model from this battalion has fought for the first time, you can pick another model from the same battalion that has not yet fought in that combat phase and is within 3” of any enemy units. That model fights immediately, before the opposing player picks a unit to fight in that combat phase.

 

So halo of blood is the classic fight at the start of the phase and fierce rivals is the equivalent of smashin and bashin, fight immediately after something has occurred. Hence halo of blood matches the beasts of chaos faq and fierce rivals matches the core book faq.

Edited by Maxi99
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13 hours ago, michu said:

It's really simple, if one unit has been granted both effects, then the one granted to him as second applies. So if you give one of your units "fight first" effect and then your opponent give it "fight last" effect then your unit fight last.

What's counter-intuitive in that?

it becomes unclear when an ability is not applied but passive. Does this mean it’s never applied second as its passive? So is an inherent ability suddenly worth less than an applied one? 

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18 hours ago, michu said:

It's really simple, if one unit has been granted both effects, then the one granted to him as second applies. So if you give one of your units "fight first" effect and then your opponent give it "fight last" effect then your unit fight last.

What's counter-intuitive in that?

Problem here is that it also says in the slaanesh faq:

Q: If a unit is affected by both Locus of Diversion and Horrible Fascination and has an ability that allows it to attack first, do they all cancel out?

A: Yes.

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21 hours ago, michu said:

It's really simple, if one unit has been granted both effects, then the one granted to him as second applies. So if you give one of your units "fight first" effect and then your opponent give it "fight last" effect then your unit fight last.

What's counter-intuitive in that?

If the "fight first" goes first, then you would resolve that fight before the "fight last" would come into effect, since "the player whose turn is taking place uses their abilities first, in any order they desire" (quote from FAQ preceding the magenta one).  The  new (magenta) rule states that "the ability that was applied second takes precedence" and the combination of these two effectively mean that "Fights first" will occur no matter whose turn it is.  If it's your turn you use the ability (and therefore fight) before your opponent can use theirs (to stop you) and if it's their turn you end up going second, thus taking precedence over any fight last ability placed on you.  

If it works as you say, then you would have the situation where a player would be unable to use their "strike first" ability  in their own turn, which is when they are meant to have the advantage.

If the preceding FAQ had said the player whose turn it is decides the order in which abilities from both players are used, then the advantage would always be with the player taking the turn, which is as it should be.

This is a conundrum only for opposing abilities that trigger in the same sub-phase, but it does need resolution.

 

 

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It's really simple, if one unit has been granted both effects, then the one granted to him as second applies. So if you give one of your units "fight first" effect and then your opponent give it "fight last" effect then your unit fight last.

What's counter-intuitive in that?

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