AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion

[whispersofblood]

1 hour ago, Bayul said:

Nah, sorry. We've seen actually great Battletomes and Codices recently, like Nighthaunt or Genestealer Cult with good internal balance between subfactions and a good range of useable warscrolls. If you compare this battletome with older publications, then it might feel great but it has to compete with other recent books aswell for such an appraisal.

Excuse my negativity, but i decided to wait for the regular release and another FAQ before I purchase a S2D army. My hype turned to hope.

Wait what are your issues? 

[Bayul]

7 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

Wait what are your issues? 

My previous comment lead to the conclusion you quoted:

Nevertheless I ended up with this Cabalist list:
 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness
Damned Legion: Cabalists
Grandy Strategy: Hold the Line
Triumph: Bloodthirsty
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount (170)**
- Mark of Chaos: Undivided
- General
- Command Trait: Arch Sorcerer
- Spell: Binding Damnation, Spit-tongue Curse, Chaotic Conduit, Ruinous Vigor, Daemonic Speed

Daemon Prince (195)*
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
- Wings
- Artefact: The Conqueror's Crown
- Spell: Binding Damnation, Spit-tongue Curse, Chaotic Conduit, Ruinous Vigor, Daemonic Speed

Gaunt Summoner on Disc (240)
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
- Spell: Binding Damnation, Spit-tongue Curse, Chaotic Conduit, Ruinous Vigor, Daemonic Speed

Chaos Sorcerer Lord (120)*
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
- Spell: Binding Damnation

10 x Chaos Knights (460)**
- Mark of Chaos: Undivided
- Icons of Chaos: The Dread Banner
- Reinforced

10 x Chaos Warriors (220)*
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch

10 x Chaos Warriors (220)*
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch

5 x Chaos Chosen (240)
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch

10 x Kairic Acolytes (120)
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
- Allies

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Core Battalions:

*Warlord
**Vanguard

Total: 1985 / 2000 Points

My overall ideas are (besides playing a heavy armored Tzeentch army):

The mounted General and the Knights are the frontline. He should cast Chaos Conduit, Daemonic Speed or something aggressive. 

The Sorcerer Lord and the Warriors are the backline, who could be ported by Warp Reality into action by the fast Daemon Prince and the Gaunt Summoner.

Slow af Chaos Chosen and the Kairic Acolytes are summoned from the Silver Tower into better positions. The Chosen can be placed to screen the Acolytes and the Gaunt Summoner on Disc, who bring missile weapons into the mix.

My featherbrained chicken Daemon Prince can fly around and do silly stuff, I don't know.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Bayul

[Grimrock]

One thing I think is getting overlooked for Tzeentch is the ability to move wizards in the hero phase. Taking a couple wizards and letting them reposition to get into range could be really strong, and even if we don't have the best lore we still have access to some good endless spells. I could definitely see a tzeentch sorcerer lord on manticore as a general with Master of Magic being teleported around to land Winds of Chaos.

It does suck a bit that Tzeentch does next to nothing for units, but the mark you give your models doesn't have to line up with how they're painted.  You can always just paint and convert them up to look how you like and then just give them whatever mark you feel is the most thematic for your force. Got a unit of warriors that prefers to sow change through assassination? Give them mark of Khorne to represent that. Got a unit that has been gifted wings or feathers or a disk of tzeentch? Give them the mark of Slaanesh to represent their increased speed. Tzeentch has gifted your knights with the finest armor? Take the mark of Nurgle to represent the way enemy attacks are mutated to be weaker on contact. All sorts of options as long as you don't get hung up on the technicalities of what's written down on your list. 

Edited November 9, 2022 by Grimrock

[whispersofblood]

On 11/8/2022 at 10:40 AM, Bayul said:

Salty rant:

  Hide contents

I am drawn to Tzeentch and Undivided for Cabalists thematically, but I can't put a list together that isn't unreliable jank. I have a Necrons and Thousand Sons Codex next to me with the same problem. Only two specific Cults / Dynasties are essential for list building and the rest isn't even mentioned anymore. Point changes and Dataslates* don't have any impact on internal balance. 

While this doesn't matter in casual games most of the time, you'll notice the difference in mirror matches with the optimal choice very quickly. If I remember correctly even S2D players played Tzeentch most of the time with the last tome and I predict a similar efffect with Nurgle or Khorne (and Host of the Everchosen)

 *Warhammer 40K's Battlescrolls

 

I wonder if you're actually having an internal conflict between your Johnny and Timmy brain. 

[Bayul]

1 hour ago, whispersofblood said:

I wonder if you're actually having an internal conflict between your Johnny and Timmy brain. 

Interesting observation, but my conflict is more fundamental: It's between my intention for a list or theme and the tools and obstacles Warhammer provides. Taking a risk with a janky Warhammer army concept is worse then a janky Magic deck. Like I mentioned, I made this experience with my Necron army, where I am in a constant spiral to buy and paint models to fix my Initial janky army concept.

But back to topic: @Grimrock Wouldn't you rather reposition slow troops with the TZEENTCH keyword onto objectives or to be screens?

[Bayul]

Rules question: "Chaos Infernal Treasures" for Daemon Princes count as unique enchantments, correct?

[Rors]

I also have a rules question, if you character already has buffs from eye of the gods, then rolls and turns into a prince, does that prince have the initial eye of the gods buffs carry over?

[Rors]

38 minutes ago, Bayul said:

Rules question: "Chaos Infernal Treasures" for Daemon Princes count as unique enchantments, correct?

Yes, those are the same as any other artifacts, just only taken princes, like the artifact that can only be taken by wizards.

[Bayul]

4 minutes ago, Rors said:

Yes, those are the same as any other artifacts, just only taken princes, like the artifact that can only be taken by wizards.

So they do count as Artefacts of Power? Because the core rules mention seperate unique enhancements and my leaked image of that page implies they might be in a different category then artefacts.

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

IIRC, unique enhancements are stuff outside the generic categories. So Ensorcelled Banners are a unique enhancement. Infernal Treasures are just flavor text for artifacts.

[Grimrock]

1 hour ago, Bayul said:

So they do count as Artefacts of Power? Because the core rules mention seperate unique enhancements and my leaked image of that page implies they might be in a different category then artefacts.

Yes, if you watch one of the reviews you can see the infernal treasures are in the 'Artefacts of Power' section of the book. They're on the page immediately after the Trophies of Conquest and Chaos Esoterica. The section is on the Facehammer review around 25:08.

 

2 hours ago, Bayul said:

But back to topic: @Grimrock Wouldn't you rather reposition slow troops with the TZEENTCH keyword onto objectives or to be screens?

I definitely think it has a use in the late game for repositioning the slower troops, but on turn 1 I don't think it'll be very common. Since the unit can't move after being teleported now and the range is only 9" you can usually get similar movement with a run, and if there's a place you absolutely need to be you can always just spend a command point for the auto 6". The only exception I can think of would be taking advantage of a big flaw in my opponent's deployment (like they heavily overweighted one side of the board), but that probably won't come up very often. 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Grimrock

[ibel]

7 hours ago, Rors said:

then rolls and turns into a prince, does that prince have the initial eye of the gods buffs carry over?

Really good question.

Actually i would say No because the Things (Artefakt, General) with are saved and transform right to the DP are listed. so, but a interested question...

[Sinfullyvannila]

10 hours ago, Bayul said:

Interesting observation, but my conflict is more fundamental: It's between my intention for a list or theme and the tools and obstacles Warhammer provides. Taking a risk with a janky Warhammer army concept is worse then a janky Magic deck. Like I mentioned, I made this experience with my Necron army, where I am in a constant spiral to buy and paint models to fix my Initial janky army concept.

But back to topic: @Grimrock Wouldn't you rather reposition slow troops with the TZEENTCH keyword onto objectives or to be screens?

The flaw with your assessment is that they only feel comparable, but when you think about them critically, they aren't. The choices you are talking about in Necrons and 1KS gate other choices army-wide. The ones you are talking about are limited to the individual unit. You're only running into these problems because you're imposing limits on yourself.

You gotta challenge your inclination to think of marks as hard gates. Just try to think of them as a glorified wargear option.

Also; people didn't "mostly play tzeentch" last edition. People were almost universally cold with Tzeentch and hot with Nurgle and Khorne at the start and then slowly started using Tzeentch when outside pressures in the meta incentivized them to run Tzeentch.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Sinfullyvannila

[Bayul]

2 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

The flaw with your assessment is that they only feel comparable, but when you think about them critically, they aren't. The choices you are talking about in Necrons and 1KS gate other choices army-wide. The ones you are talking about are limited to the individual unit. You're only running into these problems because you're imposing limits on yourself.

You gotta challenge your inclination to think of marks as hard gates. Just try to think of them as a glorified wargear option.

Good point.

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

16 hours ago, Rors said:

I also have a rules question, if you character already has buffs from eye of the gods, then rolls and turns into a prince, does that prince have the initial eye of the gods buffs carry over?

This is one of several questions I've been thinking about that I'm gonna send in to the rules team, hopefully for eventual FAQ inclusion. Just waiting to have the physical book out to do so in case that impacts the reception.

If anyone is curious, here is the full list (in case you want to add your own voice for sending this in):

Q: If a Cabalists Hero rolls on the Eye of the Gods table and receives the Daemonhood result, is the resulting Daemon Prince a Wizard?

 

Q: If a Slaves to Darkness Hero with the PRIEST or WIZARD keywords rolls on the Eye of the Gods table and receives the Daemonhood result, does the resulting Daemon Prince retain any Prayer Scripture or Spell Lore enhancements alongside its retained Artefacts of Power and Command Traits?

 

Q: Does a Daemon Prince added by the Daemonhood result on the Eye of the Gods table retain the benefits of any previous rolls on the Eye of the Gods table, such as benefitting from an additional -1 Rend on its weapons if it previously rolled the Slaughterer’s Strength result?

 

Q: The Core Rules state that all Wizards can cast and unbind spells. How many spells can a Cabalists Hero whose Warscroll does not have the Wizard keyword by default cast or unbind?

 

Q: Certain abilities allow a unit to roll on the Eye of the Gods table “after deployment.” Does this refer to the deployment of the unit or the army?

 

Q: The Ensorcelled Banner The Blasphemous Icon has the qualifier “while this model is on the battlefield” for its effect, while the other Ensorcelled Banners do not. Can the effects of another Ensorcelled Banner be applied to a unit that originally possessed such an enhancement but lost the relevant standard bearer model?

[Lord Krungharr]

My tome is on pre-order, but wondering if a chariot themed army will be viable or even useable?  The bases are big so space could be a concern.  The Gorebeasts I know will want to be in bigger units but not so sure about the regular ones.  

[Gothmaug]

On 12/14/2019 at 2:08 PM, Charleston said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Cabalists

Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore - Mark of Nurgle

Chaos Sorcerer Lord - Mark of Nurgle

Chaos Lord - Mark of Nurgle - Infernal Puppet

Daemon Prince - Mark of Nurgle - General - Bolstered by Hate

2x5 Chaos Chosen - Mark of Nurgle

3x5 Chaos Warriors - Two Handweapons - Mark of Nurgle

1x20 Marauders - Shields, Mark of Nurgle

Balewind Vortex

Burning Head

More Units, some spells and sheningans to play around. I like the core of 15 Warriors and 10 Chosen as it looks nice on the battlefield. Marauders would be proxied as a first test. Althrough their glorious task is to be a screen and fodder for the rituals.

 

Dont the chaos warriors now need to be taken in blocks of 10 for 220 points? Can you split them into 5 mans?

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

51 minutes ago, Gothmaug said:

Dont the chaos warriors now need to be taken in blocks of 10 for 220 points? Can you split them into 5 mans?

That looks like a post from 2019, when the now-old book was the new book.

[Rors]

3 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

My tome is on pre-order, but wondering if a chariot themed army will be viable or even useable?  The bases are big so space could be a concern.  The Gorebeasts I know will want to be in bigger units but not so sure about the regular ones.  

I've played a few games with chariots and they're great but I'm not sure if I'd make an army around them. Excellent chaff as they can both go clear screens to give charge lanes and can handbrake turn sideways to become a one model screen themselves. For chaff clearing khorne or slanesh is better, for being a screen nurgle. I think they make better screens than screen clearers.

If I was building a list I would mark a few khorne and include a blood stoker ally (for now while he can buff out units). Steed + stoker for run then 3d6charge +3. Almost think of them as endless spells, fire one a turn into something and do some chip damage and block them up.

Gorebeast I haven't tried in a unit of 3 but I think that's how they should be played, solo, the one 3 up at end of turn is too swingy and it's too easy to kill before then. At 3 the mortal wounds output is reliable and they're harder to remove.

I think undivided gorebeast with a marshall could be good. So that you can rally them on 5s

Gorebeast need something to hold so they don't get charged. I think you could do something cool with cultists, iron golems or fang, probably golems for your build, then some chariots and some big units of gorebeast. You take more of khorne if you go fang, unividided if you want big durable blocks of golems that come back, and rallying gorebeast, or nurgle with MSU cultists.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Rors

[Agent of Chaos]

9 hours ago, RocketPropelledGrenade said:

This is one of several questions I've been thinking about that I'm gonna send in to the rules team, hopefully for eventual FAQ inclusion. Just waiting to have the physical book out to do so in case that impacts the reception.

If anyone is curious, here is the full list (in case you want to add your own voice for sending this in):

Thanks for compiling these! I was going to ask the cabalist question but you got it covered. Maybe as an extension to that question; do the heroes that become wizards choose a spell from the lore, or are they limited to arcane bolt/mystic shield/endless spells (and warp reality in the case of tzeentch marked heroes)?

Also, the artefacts Trophies of Conquest state they are for Slaves to Darkness Heroes only. Does that exclude Daemon Princes? I only ask because Daemon Princes have their own DP only Infernal Treasures. Same question applies to the Ruinous Overlords command traits.

Finally, and maybe people here know the answer already, but what is the base size of the Gaunt Summoner on Disc of Tzeentch? He is not listed in the base size chart for slaves or tzeentch. 

[Ravinsild]

What are Daemon Princes for this BT? They seem like support pieces because they are not particularly Killy and seem weaker than the previous Battletome since they no longer have a sword/axe AND claws. It’s one weapon and then maybe a kind of supportive heroic action/command ability thing. 

[Agent of Chaos]

The Nurgle one for turning off wards is probably the only use I can think of.

Make him General with the trait to use a 2nd heroic action so he is always doing his thing or looking for CP while your wizard does the 3D6 cast. 

Otherwise I agree, no use. 

[Ravinsild]

2 minutes ago, Agent of Chaos said:

The Nurgle one for turning off wards is probably the only use I can think of.

Make him General with the trait to use a 2nd heroic action so he is always doing his thing or looking for CP while your wizard does the 3D6 cast. 

Otherwise I agree, no use. 

It’s just 195 points for kind of a nothing burger unit. Khorne might be a useful damage sponge (maybe) between a 3+ save, 6+ ward, kill a chaff unit or screen to heal and run the Dark Radiance Command Trait to heal himself and Allies.

Nurgle to counter stuff like SBGL and Nurgle (lol), Fyreslayers, DoK, Nighthaunt etc…

I have no idea for the others. Who cares if a unit that will probably average 4-5 damage against a 4+ save fights first… 

[Agent of Chaos]

Nurgle is really strong and prevalent in the current meta, as are DOK (and slaves mirror matches could soon be a common thing too with a few wards to contend with). The death ward saves at 6+ arent a major concern but it helps none the less. Would make Gottrek pretty easy to deal with so I can see a Nurgle DP being fairly useful. 

He is also tough to take down with 3+ save, -1 to be wounded, 6+ ward and can use the nurgle command to fling some mortal wounds around at the end of combat. Its not too bad for 195 pts but def not great. 

I wouldnt rely on the khorne healing as there are way better heroic actions to be using and its not reliable he would kill anything anyway but the dark radiance trait might have its uses. Maybe that trait with the non-winged ignore battleshock aura version as a backfield support piece? Depends on the list if you would get much value out of it. 

[Rors]

The princes are somewhat disappointing unfortunately. The best use I can think of is with the healing aura and a bunch of monsters, but our monsters are somewhat questionable.

Soul grinders are very ugly models and maybe there's a competitive build there I'm not sure.

Vortex beasts would be very tanky with their self healing, the prince healing them, and you could keep teleporting them back out of combat when they get charged.

Slaughter brutes aren't a competitive choice but it'd look cool.