AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion

[Kurrilino]

1 hour ago, Grimrock said:

Listen guys, this keeps going round and round and it's getting ridiculous. We get it, there are people who expected the book to be different and wanted it to be focused on the chaos warriors or monsters or warcry stuff, but it isn't. I understand that's a let down and it pushes you away from the faction, but that doesn't mean you need to come on here and constantly keep complaining about it. Complaining won't make the book work the way you want it to, it won't magically make GW publish a massive sweeping errata that reworks the faction. All it's doing is restricting productive conversation and bumming people out. Please just take a break and let it go.

There are competitive ways to play the faction if you want them, and if they're not to your liking then there are other factions that can scratch that itch. Worst case take a step away from the faction until the next book release, GW always rotates what's strong in a faction from book to book so I'm sure warriors and knights will be in vogue whenever that happens. 

Actually a forum is ment to be a place to exchange opinions.

If people just come here for shoulder tapping and to ecco a single opinion, i don't need a forum.

What about you lead by example and present people here a nice working list that is at least remotely able to not being seal clubbed.

Just show us how wrong we are.

 

I just came from a tournament where i chose Nighthaunt instead StD and i tabled all of my StD opponents purely because i play WoC since 10+ years.

It wasn't even enjoyable because there is not much they can do about.  As soon as an opponent has strong dispel you shove Marauders where the sun never shines and most armies have now an automatic dispel and 30 reapers don't even get warm ripping apart a whole unit of marauders.

I know there are very few shiny things in the book but they only work on paper.

[rosa]

18 minutes ago, Kurrilino said:

You are welcome

See attached...

Where do you get the 47% from?

I see 66%.

Edited February 28, 2020 by rosa

[Midjithero]

5 hours ago, Cambot1231 said:

I've been having a great time with this list

3 sources of threat 

You have to play without any mistakes against the top tier stuff but overall the double fighting Archaon can be pretty brutal.  The list does struggle a bit against slaanesh summoning. There are extra saves against magic with Chaos Rune Sheilds, and Archaon's Tzeentch head dispells.  If facing against shooting I go full nurgle Keyword, but otherwise I've had great success with the slaanesh Keyword so that I can reroll the charges on the Varangaurd. The Chosen in a block of ten can ussually take a punch and still do great at half capacity and amazing if they are all allowed to charge in. Also they are a great unit to deepstrike in with Mask of Darkness spell.   

How do you fight with the chosen?  I have yet to use them, mostly because I am trying to theorycraft how I’ll effectively use Slaughter-Leaders...that seems to be their signature ability, but the whole within 12” makes me think you either send a lone hero, or a small 5 man knight group...are you double teaming a unit, or chosen attack unit A and your other unit attacks unit B??

the models are terrible, but I love the hobby aspect so could easily convert some Retributors into Chosen 

[Cambot1231]

2 hours ago, Midjithero said:

How do you fight with the chosen?  I have yet to use them, mostly because I am trying to theorycraft how I’ll effectively use Slaughter-Leaders...that seems to be their signature ability, but the whole within 12” makes me think you either send a lone hero, or a small 5 man knight group...are you double teaming a unit, or chosen attack unit A and your other unit attacks unit B??

the models are terrible, but I love the hobby aspect so could easily convert some Retributors into Chosen 

In this list they serve as a threat. They are usually out on their own from being teleported. I honestly don't have much luck with the slaughter leader ability since there are so few other units.  I could see it being good with the double pile in from the chaos lord though , allowing you to reroll your wounds on the second swing.  Chosen are also great for the sorcerer lord reroll save buff if Archaon isnt around.  

[Grimrock]

3 hours ago, Kurrilino said:

Actually a forum is ment to be a place to exchange opinions.

If people just come here for shoulder tapping and to ecco a single opinion, i don't need a forum.

What about you lead by example and present people here a nice working list that is at least remotely able to not being seal clubbed.

Just show us how wrong we are.

 

I just came from a tournament where i chose Nighthaunt instead StD and i tabled all of my StD opponents purely because i play WoC since 10+ years.

It wasn't even enjoyable because there is not much they can do about.  As soon as an opponent has strong dispel you shove Marauders where the sun never shines and most armies have now an automatic dispel and 30 reapers don't even get warm ripping apart a whole unit of marauders.

I know there are very few shiny things in the book but they only work on paper.

Listen, people have been presenting workable lists for a while now. You've been sticking to the same line over and over just dismissing everything that is said. Like you mentioned, forums are for discussion. Ignoring the discussion and ramming the same thing over and over again isn't discussion. I'm not going to put up a list because I've seen how you respond to competitive lists, it's a wasted effort.

Again, speaking to anyone who is frustrated with slaves right now. Please, just take a break and step away from the faction or forums for a while. Let people have healthy discussion for a month or two without coming in every few days to say how terrible the faction is so we aren't just stuck in the same miserable loop over and over. Maybe after that you'll see something that satisfies you. If not then maybe the faction truly is lost and you don't need to spend any more time on it at all.

Edited February 29, 2020 by Grimrock

[Kurrilino]

4 hours ago, Grimrock said:

Listen, people have been presenting workable lists for a while now. You've been sticking to the same line over and over just dismissing everything that is said. Like you mentioned, forums are for discussion. Ignoring the discussion and ramming the same thing over and over again isn't discussion. I'm not going to put up a list because I've seen how you respond to competitive lists, it's a wasted effort.

Again, speaking to anyone who is frustrated with slaves right now. Please, just take a break and step away from the faction or forums for a while. Let people have healthy discussion for a month or two without coming in every few days to say how terrible the faction is so we aren't just stuck in the same miserable loop over and over. Maybe after that you'll see something that satisfies you. If not then maybe the faction truly is lost and you don't need to spend any more time on it at all.

Ahhh the regular, you have another opinion please go away i don't want to be confronted with it.

[sfe667]

33 minutes ago, Kurrilino said:

Ahhh the regular, you have another opinion please go away i don't want to be confronted with it.

No, he's actually right. 

I'm brand new to the game. I've played maybe four times total, all with StD. I'm learning the rules, getting spanked whilst doing so, and trying to learn what units synergise most effectively. I'm reading this thread purely to see what experienced players find work well, or don't work well, to help me try and discover the way to structure a list.

Everybody gets that the some of the design decisions are strange. Everybody gets that some models are overcosted. Everybody gets that there is, for the most part, a lack of output from the army on the whole. What people are trying to therefore do is work with the toolset they have to optimise how to play it. That's what forums are for.

There is clearly a functional list in here. Will it go 5-0 on autopilot? Probably not. But there IS a significant level of control available to StD, and in an objective based game you don't need to gauge an army on the ability to table the opposition.

Personally, I'm sitting here hovering over the buy button on Archaon, but what I'm trying to work out is whether I can make a functional list with him. Hence this forum. What doesn't benefit me, or the conversation, in any useful way, is the copy/paste rhetoric you've been writing every day (apart from during your ban period - the irony) telling everyone that they are 100% wrong, and the army is 100% unplayable. 

And that is what people are trying to say. You don't need to be here, spouting the same negative comment. Nothing will change until, at the earliest possibility, the 2020 handbook. So, please try and consider that people are using this forum to utilise the hive mind to make informed decisions about how to get the most of what could quite possibly be a fundamentally flawed book, and benefit without your sniping comments about everything.

[NJohansson]

5 hours ago, Kurrilino said:

Ahhh the regular, you have another opinion please go away i don't want to be confronted with it.

To be fair - an opinion should be expressed carefully and with consideration. Repeating the same thing over and over becomes spamming and is tiering. It’s interesting to discuss pros and cons of lists, efficiency of units, how to play, tactics, etc - it is not interesting to read about that the army is bad, sucks, dull, poorly constructed and should be changed in every possible way.

This forum has always been about constructive feedback and positive discussions (for plain negativity there are a dozen other forums). So IMHO could we please change the tone  to a more positive/constructive discussion.

[jackmcmahon]

here is a post that isn't "no they're bad/no they're fine/shut up/no you shut up"

Despoilers.

Saul/nightmaw - whispers 

Gaunt - mask spell and hyperseed snare

Belakor - mask

Khorne dp - paragon of ruin

Soulsnare shackles 

20 Marauder's - k

5 warriors - k

5 warriors - k

6 fomoroid crushers

Penumbral engine

 

Despite being khorne, it will play more closely to nurgle style.  Two sources of pitch black for random mortal wound splashing. Shackles for mortal wound splashing. 6 crushers for more mortal wound splashing and the engine in a key place in case terrain is scarce/placed in non essential areas.  The khorne dp ability/shackles/hyperseed snare kind of forces them to take the most efficient route to get to you instead of avoiding terrain.  Belakor slows them even more.  Gaunt tries to block the middle of the field for a couple of turns with horrors while the three wizards attempt to teleport two crushers per turn into the best areas to smash some grass/rock some rock/pound mound/wield the field/start siegin' with the region/boil the soil/kill-hill/storm the form/foe-plateua or some other expression for pain terrain.  Maraurders used as cleanup crew after backline is sufficiently weakened.  The final step is to refuse to play anyone unless they agree to play with all terrain set to volcanic and try your best to imitate the face of a fomoroid crusher to intimidate them into agreeing.  If they disagree because that's stupid, you clearly can't pilot crushers.  Go to the mirror and work on your fomoface so you, too, can start crushin it fomo.  

This is the list that broke STD, folks. 

How I imagine everyone's reaction:

"This FoMo spittin"

[whispersofblood]

7 hours ago, sfe667 said:

No, he's actually right. 

I'm brand new to the game. I've played maybe four times total, all with StD. I'm learning the rules, getting spanked whilst doing so, and trying to learn what units synergise most effectively. I'm reading this thread purely to see what experienced players find work well, or don't work well, to help me try and discover the way to structure a list.

Everybody gets that the some of the design decisions are strange. Everybody gets that some models are overcosted. Everybody gets that there is, for the most part, a lack of output from the army on the whole. What people are trying to therefore do is work with the toolset they have to optimise how to play it. That's what forums are for.

There is clearly a functional list in here. Will it go 5-0 on autopilot? Probably not. But there IS a significant level of control available to StD, and in an objective based game you don't need to gauge an army on the ability to table the opposition.

Personally, I'm sitting here hovering over the buy button on Archaon, but what I'm trying to work out is whether I can make a functional list with him. Hence this forum. What doesn't benefit me, or the conversation, in any useful way, is the copy/paste rhetoric you've been writing every day (apart from during your ban period - the irony) telling everyone that they are 100% wrong, and the army is 100% unplayable. 

And that is what people are trying to say. You don't need to be here, spouting the same negative comment. Nothing will change until, at the earliest possibility, the 2020 handbook. So, please try and consider that people are using this forum to utilise the hive mind to make informed decisions about how to get the most of what could quite possibly be a fundamentally flawed book, and benefit without your sniping comments about everything.

Well to start I'd like to say welcome. I'm always a little jealous of new players as they get to experience so much of this game with fresh eyes, fewer hang ups and develop their taste on the models and units of today. Also there is nothing wrong with losing at this stage, in reality you are probably going to lose for months and primarily it will be because of core rules, and strategy rather than the strength or lack there of in the S2D book.

There are definetly levels of discussion to be had, but there is also a place for identifying what elements don't work together so long as their is a weighty explaination as to why. I would hand on heart say if a faction has a battletome it is playable, and with effort it is generally possible to get almost any faction to say 4-1 level when played by a competent player. There are no autopilot 5-0 armies though, so that is a bit of a red herring.

The question for me usually is twofold. How well do the rules reflect the description, and how closely do using the rules and playing the game align. That second bit is the most imporant because the game changes and as the game changes factions move with it. So I am always thinking about the game in that manner, what kind of battleplans do I need to play, and what armies in absract do I need to play around. 

So in that regard its a bigger problem for me at the moment that 5 knights aren't very reliable than the fact that 10 or 15 aren't effecient. I said in one of these threads that a lot of factions are moving into msu territory, so almost every build needs to thread the needle between being able to form smaller groupings and being able to fight combat units. Orignally the elite, and combat nature of S2D gave me the feeling that they would naturally fall on this path, and that they would be a strong addition to the current environment, but they fall very flat in that regard. IMO obviously.

My advice on Archaon is wait until you see a list or come up with an idea that really energizes you. He will dominate your list as he is effectively half the army its possible that you might, but I find he is actually quite easy to play against, and not really all that killy. He is extremely cool, and large but I so far my experience with new players picking him up is they usually end up very disappointed with him.

Anyway my advice to you in the short term is play the game using as many different unit types as you can, land focus on the core rules more than anything. Particularly the rules concerning any time a model is moved in any fashion.

[whispersofblood]

3 hours ago, jackmcmahon said:

here is a post that isn't "no they're bad/no they're fine/shut up/no you shut up"

Despoilers.

Saul/nightmaw - whispers 

Gaunt - mask spell and hyperseed snare

Belakor - mask

Khorne dp - paragon of ruin

Soulsnare shackles 

20 Marauder's - k

5 warriors - k

5 warriors - k

6 fomoroid crushers

Penumbral engine

 

Despite being khorne, it will play more closely to nurgle style.  Two sources of pitch black for random mortal wound splashing. Shackles for mortal wound splashing. 6 crushers for more mortal wound splashing and the engine in a key place in case terrain is scarce/placed in non essential areas.  The khorne dp ability/shackles/hyperseed snare kind of forces them to take the most efficient route to get to you instead of avoiding terrain.  Belakor slows them even more.  Gaunt tries to block the middle of the field for a couple of turns with horrors while the three wizards attempt to teleport two crushers per turn into the best areas to smash some grass/rock some rock/pound mound/wield the field/start siegin' with the region/boil the soil/kill-hill/storm the form/foe-plateua or some other expression for pain terrain.  Maraurders used as cleanup crew after backline is sufficiently weakened.  The final step is to refuse to play anyone unless they agree to play with all terrain set to volcanic and try your best to imitate the face of a fomoroid crusher to intimidate them into agreeing.  If they disagree because that's stupid, you clearly can't pilot crushers.  Go to the mirror and work on your fomoface so you, too, can start crushin it fomo.  

This is the list that broke STD, folks. 

How I imagine everyone's reaction:

"This FoMo spittin"

2 teleport spells isn't a bad idea, but its still better just to have 160 marauders.

[jackmcmahon]

Then there's no room for the best unit in the game. Crushaaaaas

[NJohansson]

I would recommend any new players to look at strong (as in cost efficient) units over synergy. In the beginning it is relatively hard to play lists where the individual units need to support or set up each other in certain ways - that is why for example there are a lot of “hard” lists (if you look at tournament rankings) that perform very poorly if played by people that do not know how to play said list. 
 

Therefore I would recommend anyone starting STD to get at least one unit of 40 marauders and then either two more of 20 or 10 warriors (5 and 5 for the cheapest core requirements), 1-2 gaunt summoners (and the accompanying horrors), Be’lakor, Daemon Prince, Sorcerer lord, the Sorcerer lord on manticore and STD endless spells/the regular endless spells. If you play a list with said models (naturally you will need to mix and try what you like playing) you will have a strong foundation for Cabal, Ravagers (not the princes naturally) and Despoilers and since the models are cost efficient you will feel like you have a fun and strong army (not S tier in any way but not a pushover). Then you could add Archon, Varanguard or a regular daemon prince and anything else you want to try but most other units need to have synergy and especially Archeon (800 points) needs to be tailored around.

Hope this helps and make sense

[misthv]

I’ve always appreciated the friendly and constructive tone in TGA. Not so much in this thread unfortunately. 

Wanted to share a list I had some success with last weekend. Played vs Nighthaunt and I had lost like 3 Warriors when he conceded round 3. Most memorable moment was Varanguard charge into 40 Chainrasps deleting the unit  And yes, when I managed to ignore 8 of 12 MW (yes, he rolled 6, followed by double 6) from his Purple sun on Archaon keeping him from losing a bracket one more round  

Edited February 29, 2020 by misthv

[Grimrock]

11 hours ago, Kurrilino said:

Ahhh the regular, you have another opinion please go away i don't want to be confronted with it.

It's not that I don't want to hear the opinion or be confronted with it. I've heard it. I've heard it every couple days for the last 3 months. It's the same opinion over and over and over. I don't disagree with everything, I know the book has flaws, but it's not helping anymore. At this point it's just venting bitterness and stopping people from trying to make the best of the situation.

 

1 hour ago, NJohansson said:

Therefore I would recommend anyone starting STD to get at least one unit of 40 marauders and then either two more of 20 or 10 warriors (5 and 5 for the cheapest core requirements), 1-2 gaunt summoners (and the accompanying horrors), Be’lakor, Daemon Prince, Sorcerer lord, the Sorcerer lord on manticore and STD endless spells/the regular endless spells. If you play a list with said models (naturally you will need to mix and try what you like playing) you will have a strong foundation for Cabal, Ravagers (not the princes naturally) and Despoilers and since the models are cost efficient you will feel like you have a fun and strong army (not S tier in any way but not a pushover). Then you could add Archon, Varanguard or a regular daemon prince and anything else you want to try but most other units need to have synergy and especially Archeon (800 points) needs to be tailored around.

Hope this helps and make sense

 

I'd agree that newer players should definitely aim for simplicity but I might suggest a couple different units from my experience. Marauders obviously, but rather than 2 units of warriors I'd suggest they start looking at minimum sized units of marauder horsemen. They're fast, cheap, offer a good wide screen (which is very important to help make sure marauders or knights charge instead of get charged) and can be summoned in Ravagers. I've been working on trying to write lists for warriors, but honestly I think they need more tailoring than Archaon so I wouldn't start there if someone was new. Also I'd suggest a warshrine, it is a buff piece but it's fairly straightforward and a core part of the army. Stay with the army, focus on the undivided buff, and don't be afraid to get into combat with it. Plus it looks sweet haha. 

For Heroes I'd also suggest a lord or karkadrak, he's about as simple as possible. Runeblade and mark of khorne and he'll put out a ludicrous amount of damage. Oh, and actually I might stay away from endless spells off the start unless you're bringing two casters with the ability to cast twice. The warscrolls have such good native spells that, with mask of darkness for a backup, I haven't really felt any compulsion to reach for endless spells yet. 

Edited February 29, 2020 by Grimrock
Few more suggestions

[Vestrial]

What do you think about my list ?

[Hannibal]

3 hours ago, misthv said:

 Most memorable moment was Varanguard charge into 40 Chainrasps deleting the unit

How on earth can this happen? Unbuffed Varanguard are far away from slaying 40-wound-units. And even buffed, there had to be some outstanding dice rolls...

[NJohansson]

53 minutes ago, Vestrial said:

What do you think about my list ?

From a theme point of view - the list should be really cool on the battlefield. From an efficiency point of view - I think you will struggle against many armies. Chaos warriors are really not that good at dealing damage, taking objectives (low model count) or control (low movement and low threat) when compared to similarly priced units and  the same goes for the knights. To add to that - you don’t really use the despoiler benefits/strengths that much (few monsters/princes).  Playing against any optimized build will give you a feeling as if you are playing a 1500 point army against a 2000+ one.

As to constructive advice - a bit hard since you are investing 1000 points in semi optimal units / not counting said units support. I would strongly recommend going with marauders and if you don’t want them then at least drop down the amount of warriors/knights and invest in a monster (sorcerer lord on manticore for example - added benefit you can actually drop a regular sorcerer lord and save the 110 points) and Be’lakor. With two daemon princes and a monster or two - the faction abilities will make way more sense. 

[Grimrock]

4 hours ago, Vestrial said:

What do you think about my list ?

I agree with @NJohansson above, but I'd also recommend you try to work in a battalion if possible. If you split up the marauder horsemen to minimum sized units you've already got enough  for a ruinbringer list and the mortal wounds should more than make up for the minor buff you'd get for the the larger unit. Also I'm not sure if despoilers really needs multiple princes or monsters, it seems to function decently even if you're only bringing one since it brings some great benefits regardless.

If you'd like to keep the warriors then I'd suggest combining two of the units since they work better the longer they keep their save reroll. If you drop 10 of the warriors and combine the others into a unit of 20 you'll have enough for the battalion I suggested.

If you were going all khorne I'd suggest a bloodstoker ally, I've struggled to get units of 10 knights where they need to be but the bloodstoker helps immensely. Plus if you combine the stoker rerolls with the lord's command ability and mark of khorne you'll have a very reliable unit without needing to roll for a buff. You could drop one of the sorcerer's to fit it in. Actually even if you're not up for a stoker I'd suggest making all of your troops one mark, it'll help a lot with auras. I usually run a predominantly khorne force with a nurgle wizard and since the sorcerer doesn't want to be up front anyway his mark doesn't really matter. 

Edited March 1, 2020 by Grimrock

[Eldarain]

If it doesn't matter for synergy I like to throw Tzeentch on for free Mystic Shield.

[misthv]

8 hours ago, Hannibal said:

How on earth can this happen? Unbuffed Varanguard are far away from slaying 40-wound-units. And even buffed, there had to be some outstanding dice rolls...

Hm, I do remember some decent dice rolls, but it shouldn’t be too hard w Sixth Circle (+1 dmg on charge), Daemonic power (re-roll hit and wound) etc. And if not enough, use once per battle ability and attack again! Haven’t done the math so I don’t know how lucky I was! 🙂

Edited March 1, 2020 by misthv

[JackStreicher]

13 hours ago, misthv said:

I’ve always appreciated the friendly and constructive tone in TGA. Not so much in this thread unfortunately. 

Wanted to share a list I had some success with last weekend. Played vs Nighthaunt and I had lost like 3 Warriors when he conceded round 3. Most memorable moment was Varanguard charge into 40 Chainrasps deleting the unit  And yes, when I managed to ignore 8 of 12 MW (yes, he rolled 6, followed by double 6) from his Purple sun on Archaon keeping him from losing a bracket one more round  

Intriguing!

how did the 20 Marauders perform? I am always anxious to play only 20 since they lose the rend bonus once a model dies.

[misthv]

5 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Intriguing!

how did the 20 Marauders perform? I am always anxious to play only 20 since they lose the rend bonus once a model dies.

Normally I wouldn’t have gone w only 20, but points wise I couldn’t fit in more models into this list. Also, I figured Archaon and Varanguard where kind of two hammers so the 20 Marauders actually just took and held an objective, and some initial screening for the Varanguards vs his potential alpha. As per rend it’s really not an issue vs NH but yeah I see your point in a more general setting 🙂

Edited March 1, 2020 by misthv

[Hannibal]

2 hours ago, misthv said:

Hm, I do remember some decent dice rolls, but it shouldn’t be too hard w Sixth Circle (+1 dmg on charge), Daemonic power (re-roll hit and wound) etc. And if not enough, use once per battle ability and attack again! Haven’t done the math so I don’t know how lucky I was! 🙂

Well, totally forgot that ability.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Hannibal

[whispersofblood]

12 hours ago, Vestrial said:

What do you think about my list ?

• Well the most obvious change is there is no reason to have marauder horsemen in a 15, I would 100% recommend splitting them up. 
• This almost seems like the ideal set up to include sayl so you can teleport 2 units in your first hero phase
• I would only take despoilers with this set up if I planned on taking the cmd trait Paragon of Ruin, and using the Artefact Helm of Many Eyes, otherwise a Ravagers or Cabalist set up is supperior
• If you aren't using a warscroll battalion or trying to get as few drops as possible that a S2D list should not include Chaos Furies, they are an extreely powerful unit, especially in a cabalist list including Binding Damnation
• I would be tempted to make at least one of the Chaos warrior units Nurgle, primarily the one sticking around the Warshrine, and trying to get it up to 15

Now most of those changes require points, so you might have to do some cutting in general.