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So this type of list has become a bit of a thing in tournaments recently, specifically due to the changes to Cultists in White Dwarf meaning they can now benefit from mono-God models, specifically Khorne. I would advise caution though. When you look at the Slaanesh and Nurgle books most of the buffs are now 'Hedonites of' and 'Maggotkin of' so you'd be a brave person to go all in on this build when a Khorne book might not be too far away. But if you happen to have the models (or money!) then crack on - the damage will be insane.

It's not as immediately obvious as it could have been noting that the Wizard keyword doesn't sit in the bottom box, but it's keyworded in the text itself. So yes, I would say this can take the StD spell lore. It's still very dull though. Undivided isn't the strongest, so it's likely an 8wd unit that operates in complete isolation from the rest of the army. I don't believe it's locked to Ravagers on the basis that you units gain the keyword when you choose the allegiance, which is a plus, but ultimately it comes down to whether you're willing to pay the extra points for what is effectively a weaker Chaos Warrior unit, or a less effective Chaos Sorcerer Lord. I'm surprised the 125pts bit hasn't been commented on further. If this is a nod to a AOS 3.0 method of pointing, it's giving the granularity of a 4,000 points system, meaning balance should be far easier to achieve at the lower point levels.

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/Khagras_Ravagers_en.pdf

The new Khagra's Ravagers Warscroll for StD costs 125pts... Are points in multiples of 5 a sign of things to come?

Just to check... You aren't searching for Azyr directly are you? That's the subscription part of the Warhammer AoS app, so you won't find it if searching directly.

I'm looking at 3x VG along with something like a Sorc Lord on foot, 2x Untamed Beasts, and a set of Furies. I had the same view as you - I tried the three VG with a DP and whilst it was useful board control, I was so exposed against summoning. I also tried a similar list with the Sorc Lord on Manticore but it's even less bodies. I intended to try swapping the third VG for 15 Warriors. Sure, their output is poor, but they take some shifting. If doing that however it does push you more towards the DP/Manticore option to get that extra threat on the board, and then it's back to a numbers game for holding objectives. Very tough choices! I am leaning towards 3x VG however, then trying to optimise whatever else is left - and to me, the Sorc Lord on foot, whilst slow, offers so much it's hard to leave him out a list.

I started AoS at Christmas, and the new Warrior/Knight sculpts were the thing that sold me on StD. Having Archaon and the Varanguard in the model range was a positive too from a Rule of Cool perspective. Are they competitive right now, if you measure them on the basis of whether they can win tournaments? I'm in no way experienced enough to assess that, but a listen to the recent Just Play podcast (which focuses on the competitive side of the game) says that they'll struggle to win them outright. That being said, they have so many different ways to put 2,000pts on the board you will always be able to adjust to whatever local meta you're playing in. Personally, I started with the typical blocks of Warriors/Knights/Marauders, but have recently moved to Archaon plus 3x 3 Varanguard and it's loads of fun - and considered to be one of the most competitive lists in the book too. To answer one of your questions, yes, you can Ally in any model from the four main Chaos god armies, which gives you lots of options. As a common example, you can run a Khorne Bloodsecrator and it will give the +1atk buff to any StD model running with the Mark of Khorne (like Marauders) or anything with the Khorne keyword (like Archaon). You'll see Kairos running in a Cabalists army, for example. Are they particularly good at something compared to other factions? No, not really. Archaon & VG are super elite, so that's quite unique, but I wouldn't say there's anything that StD offer that other armies can't also do. But that isn't necessarily a bad thing if you're playing for the enjoyment of the hobby with similarly skilled friends, as whilst they don't do much that's 'best in class', they offer a load of tools to choose from to keep things interesting: - Teleporting + the 97% chance of a successful 9" charge with Marauders means they always offer a deep strike threat. Buff a block of 40 with reroll hits/wounds and they'll delete pretty much anything. - They have fantastic board control. Be'Lakor can lock a unit down to two turns, the Khorne DP can halve runs & charges in an 18" bubble, Whispers of Chaos can stop a unit moving, the Sphinx cat can force a unit to go last in the combat phase, Realmscourge Rupture halves the movement characteristic, etc. It can be quite oppressive against melee armies. - You can make a true cavalry army! It'll be extremely expensive to put on the board, but Knights/VG/Chariots/Horsemen along with the mounted heroes look great. - Whilst there isn't an easy 'best' allegience choice, with most purely OK, they allow you to mix things up from game to game. Ravagers gives you summoning, Despoilers is useful against shooting armies, Cabalists gives much-needed +'s to spell casting, Hosts lets you see who gets the first turn in a battle round, and Empty Throne gives you a useful way of nabbing objectives with smaller units. I'd argue the internal balance in the book is actually pretty good, notwithstanding the fact that a LOT of the warscrolls will never see the light of day unless you enjoy the fluff over being viable! Overall, I'm glad I chose them as they are undeniably a great model range, with a load of tools to keep things interesting. It's also extremely easy to keep things interesting by running other Chaos models in StD, or even to run StD as the bulk of models in one of the other Chaos factions (less Skaven). That latter point might be one of the biggest issues that StD will have in terms of keeping the army competitive however; anything they do with the point cost - the core models are arguably pointed quite high compared to other factions - means they also affect the balance of that unit in other factions. Their points also feel like they're balanced around the various buffs they can get, but with the small bubble range, average spell casting, and the 3+ Warshrine requirement, it's not a guarantee the unit will have those buffs at the time they need them. Apologies for the long post but hopefully it's helpful? Don't buy the army if you are only interested in winning a high percentage of games, but they are definitely a) viable, b) versatile, and c) aesthetically great.

Has anyone tried PTW in an Archaon list? You essentially need to run MSU (though a couple of Spawns may change that), however you'd be taking the Sorc Lord, a Warshrine, and a few teleporting blocks of 20 suicidal Marauders which coupled with Archaon might be enough output to leave your MSU units to tie up objectives. It's probably not viable, but would be interesting to know if anyone has tried it.

Assuming I'm allowed to link there, I bought these for mine. Nice and cheap and I'm happy with the results. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/173680264688

No, he's actually right. I'm brand new to the game. I've played maybe four times total, all with StD. I'm learning the rules, getting spanked whilst doing so, and trying to learn what units synergise most effectively. I'm reading this thread purely to see what experienced players find work well, or don't work well, to help me try and discover the way to structure a list. Everybody gets that the some of the design decisions are strange. Everybody gets that some models are overcosted. Everybody gets that there is, for the most part, a lack of output from the army on the whole. What people are trying to therefore do is work with the toolset they have to optimise how to play it. That's what forums are for. There is clearly a functional list in here. Will it go 5-0 on autopilot? Probably not. But there IS a significant level of control available to StD, and in an objective based game you don't need to gauge an army on the ability to table the opposition. Personally, I'm sitting here hovering over the buy button on Archaon, but what I'm trying to work out is whether I can make a functional list with him. Hence this forum. What doesn't benefit me, or the conversation, in any useful way, is the copy/paste rhetoric you've been writing every day (apart from during your ban period - the irony) telling everyone that they are 100% wrong, and the army is 100% unplayable. And that is what people are trying to say. You don't need to be here, spouting the same negative comment. Nothing will change until, at the earliest possibility, the 2020 handbook. So, please try and consider that people are using this forum to utilise the hive mind to make informed decisions about how to get the most of what could quite possibly be a fundamentally flawed book, and benefit without your sniping comments about everything.

I should have said, I know I could drop the Golems from the first list and grab a CP, but they felt like an insurance policy against losing a hero especially with the low quantity of models in that list.

Ok, so for those who've had plenty of games with the new Tome, help me out a bit here. As a newbie to the game I'm trying to limit the use of proxies as much as possible, which is generally sending me down the Ravager route. I'd like to give the Plaguetouched Warband a go, so I'm trying to balance having a list with reasonable hammers & anvils whilst making sure I have enough heroes for the summoning. Four feels minimum on the basis that I can't guarantee they won't get sniped before getting to use the summon. List 1: Karkadrak Lord on foot 2x Sorcerer Lord 15 Warriors 40 Maurauders 2x 5 Knights Warshrine 8x Iron Golems List 2: Heroes as above, plus Darkoath Warqueen 15 Warriors 2x 40 Marauders Warshrine 1x CP Plaguetouched Battalion for both as mentioned. Both feel like they'd work well, but it's really balancing off the strike units of Knights Vs another unit of Marauders and a CP. I'm leaning towards the latter on the basis that the Warqueen would benefit the Maurauders and the additional CP feels quite necessary, but would welcome thoughts.