Umm .. the Stonehorn ...

[mmimzie]

Stonehorn:

I didn't get to see the game, but we had a cross store challenge. So my store brought some of our strongest players to meet the challenge. I stepped up and was on the traveling side, but our beast claw player who was our in store guy. Lost give game against 2 folks Death/Destruction. He tabled them, but lost straight up to points. He did say he lost sight of the points, so maybe with more point focus he could have won.

I definitely think it's a very aggressive model, and it's access to artifacts makes it very strong. It's super fast and in your face quite easily, and it gets access to battalions that most other armies don't even have yet. If i would say any balance maybe bring down the behemoth count for all armies. 

 

Point system stuff:

We'll definitely need more play testing to see how it goes. I kind of prefer a less flexible point system, but no as inflexible as GW has been with it's point, bur less flexible (considerably) than most tournament point systems.

I feel lots of comp point system just seem to fly all around dramatically, and every point system has a bias toward some certain type of unit. For instance GHB favors blocks of troops as they are all relatively undercost (if only abit). I think the way GW seems to be now they are open to our player impression, and could potentially be convinced to revisit the point next year. I think a point revisit, by an outside force such as GW is definitely the best idea.

I also enjoy a point system i can pick up, close my  eyes and randomly select a gaming group, and every one knows the point system and probably has a list. 

[daedalus81]

2 hours ago, Chris Tomlin said:

Unfortunately I don't see that happening...and this was my major fear with the GH. At the start of the Matched Play Profiles in the GH it advises that anything not listed will appear in the relevant Battletome - so whatever comes next, I think will have points listed. Once they are printed in Battletomes they are unlikely to change IMO. Big shame, the dynamic system we had as a community was such a positive.

Paul is on here - @Soup Dragon

Here's the problem - it is already clear your minds are geared up to tweak the points.  You may not realize that you'll be unconsciously biased against stonehorns.  If you were taking an objective approach it wouldn't even be a talking point yet.

Fluid points are fine - after you've exhausted all other options, which should include petitioning GW with usable data and informed statements.

[Sleboda]

14 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

Yeah that works in Open Play and Narrative Play, but I imagine many here are focused on Matched Play, where that doesn't really work.

Ah. Not into matched play myself yet.  Soon though.

[Nico]

Really disappointing to hear that spamming undercosted junk archers is becoming a thing already. Do they really get +1 to hit and reroll hits and wounds for shooting attacks as opposed to melee?

What's your real name Soup Dragon - I can think of one possible game you mean.

[daedalus81]

28 minutes ago, Nico said:

Really disappointing to hear that spamming undercosted junk archers is becoming a thing already. Do they really get +1 to hit and reroll hits and wounds for shooting attacks as opposed to melee?

What's your real name Soup Dragon - I can think of one possible game you mean.

A unit of 40 plus the battalion is 460 points and as stated requires at least two spells to pull off.  I don't know where rerolls to wound come from, but 120 shots with 4+/4+ rend 1 (vs monsters) is going to do 8 wounds to a stonehorn. Even with both rerolls that's 17 wounds.  That he killed a stonehorn and a thundertusk as stated in one turn of shooting...I call shenanigans.

Weirdnob can provide reroll hits if he rolls a double to cast.
Bonus attacks occur in the combat phase not shooting from a warboss.

[WoollyMammoth]

I don't see it as a problem with points so much as a problem with design. There's certain "laws" that you simply shouldn't break, and when you do you create this sinkhole in the game. You cant just give a warhmachine 5 crew with a 2+ save. You cant just make a cannon with 60" that does 2D6 mortal wounds. You can't just make a model have 3+ save and halve all its wounds received and give it a common 19" move before a re-rollable charge and the capability to cause up to 6 mortal + 48 rending wounds. These things simply shouldn't exist in the game.

GW released this stonehorn, now there's a skinkhole everyone has to experience when they play against BCR.

More realistically than points, events need comp systems like in 8th. Surely 1 stonehorn per army is going to be the standard.

The best comp system is the "best game" system they do at warhammer world. Each person votes who they thought was their favorite game. The winner of the event is the most liked player, with a tie breaker on how many points they received from objectives. This way, you can take all the stonehorns you like but you have to be just about the coolest guy in the world to get a single vote. 

 

[amysrevenge]

I reckon it's just outrageous (OUTRAGEOUS!) that the General's Handbook has already been out for 23 days (23 DAYS!) and we haven't seen 3-4 updates to point costs.  What are they even thinking?

 

[hello, welcome to my joke post of hyperbole]

[Nico]

Quote

A unit of 40 plus the battalion is 460 points and as stated requires at least two spells to pull off.  I don't know where rerolls to wound come from, but 120 shots with 4+/4+ rend 1 (vs monsters) is going to do 8 wounds to a stonehorn. Even with both rerolls that's 17 wounds.  That he killed a stonehorn and a thundertusk as stated in one turn of shooting...I call shenanigans.

They are 5+ to hit on the profile. Is there a +1 to hit from a spell?

[daedalus81]

It's their 3rd spell 'Brutal Beast Spirits' -- +1 to run, charge, and hit.

If they already killed a monster that game and if they roll a 3/4 they can reroll wounds in the combat phase.  A 5/6 let's them do an additional mortal wound on a 6.  Kunnin' Ruk lets them shoot in the hero phase (and again later) and nothing else.  

I'm not sure where reroll wounds to shooting came from.

[Soup Dragon]

3 hours ago, Nico said:

What's your real name Soup Dragon - I can think of one possible game you mean.

I'm Paul Whitehead. I hope you are the Nico I am thinking of - you tabled me and my 3 Stonehorn+3 Thundertusk list with Tomb Kings at SCGT!?

[Soup Dragon]

1 hour ago, Nico said:

Quote

A unit of 40 plus the battalion is 460 points and as stated requires at least two spells to pull off.  I don't know where rerolls to wound come from, but 120 shots with 4+/4+ rend 1 (vs monsters) is going to do 8 wounds to a stonehorn. Even with both rerolls that's 17 wounds.  That he killed a stonehorn and a thundertusk as stated in one turn of shooting...I call shenanigans.

They are 5+ to hit on the profile. Is there a +1 to hit from a spell?

So, to get this, he:

1. Cast the Bone Spirit spell to reroll all 1's to hit - but rolled a double so it rerolls all to hits (he was a bit lucky with that one)

2. Cast Brutal Beast Spirit spell - +1 to hit

3. Used Command ability of Savage Big Boss - 6's generate extra attacks

4. Placed unit next to Mystical terrain and rolled a 2+ - so reroll failed wounds

5. Cast Hand of Gork - doubles movement and gives Fly

6. Unit was part of a Kunnin Ruk so can move in hero phase, and again in movement phase and then can shoot

Thus he moved forward 2 x 10" and blasted the s**t out of me!

The key to Bonesplittaz is the ability to combine multiple small buffs to great effect. The trick is getting the right units in the right place in the right list to do this.

[daedalus81]

3 minutes ago, Soup Dragon said:

3. Used Command ability of Savage Big Boss - 6's generate extra attacks

This is only in the combat phase with a melee weapon.  

[rokapoke]

2 minutes ago, daedalus81 said:

This is only in the combat phase with a melee weapon.  

You're looking at the Savage Orruk Warboss. @Soup Dragon is talking about the Savage Big Boss, which doesn't appear to have the same restriction.

[Nico]

Yes Paul - it's me. That makes sense. Hope you're well. I heard you did well at Alliance.

Thanks for the explanation.

Quote

Placed unit next to Mystical terrain and rolled a 2+ - so reroll failed wounds

He'll get what's coming to him! Deliberately using Mystical terrain = autoloss as Gordrakk stands still for 4 battlerounds. Every Chaos player should bring Kairos to rig this just to see the look on your enemy's face.

Quote

You're looking at the Savage Orruk Warboss. @Soup Dragon is talking about the Savage Big Boss, which doesn't appear to have the same restriction.

So he's not using an out of date version of a Warscroll for an advantage - GW have actually buffed that ability on the new model to benefit shooting units. That's a spectacular fail considering how careful they usually are to make it hard to buff ranged attacks.

[thediceabide]

55 minutes ago, Soup Dragon said:

6. Unit was part of a Kunnin Ruk so can move in hero phase, and again in movement phase and then can shoot

Thus he moved forward 2 x 10" and blasted the s**t out of me!

The key to Bonesplittaz is the ability to combine multiple small buffs to great effect. The trick is getting the right units in the right place in the right list to do this.

Sadly you cannot both shoot and move with the Kunnin' Rukk in the same turn, it's giving you a list of 3 options, not saying you get to use all 3 at once, which is why it says "or" not "and".

That said, it took some incredible luck, rolling a double for the spell and rolling up the right terrain, plus successfully casting 3 spells. I wouldn't take this as an example of how easy it is to kill a Stonehorn and Thundertusk in a single turn.

[Soup Dragon]

14 minutes ago, Nico said:

He'll get what's coming to him! Deliberately using Mystical terrain = autoloss as Gordrakk stands still for 4 battlerounds. Every Chaos player should bring Kairos to rig this just to see the look on your enemy's face.

Yep and every Order player should bring a starseer (?). Rerolling Mystical terrain is great, but rerolling each player's initiative rolls is massive - as I found out in game 3

[Nico]

Quote

Rerolling Mystical terrain is great, but rerolling each player's initiative rolls is massive - as I found out in game 3

This needs to be comped out. Messing with initiative should be limited to the units/specific formations that affect it - Engine of the Gods, Overlords of Chaos and the Fyreslayer Grand Lodge.

[thediceabide]

50 minutes ago, Nico said:

So he's not using an out of date version of a Warscroll for an advantage - GW have actually buffed that ability on the new model to benefit shooting units. That's a spectacular fail considering how careful they usually are to make it hard to buff ranged attacks.

Eh, it makes it a tougher choice between that and the Wurrgog's great ability to get another free round of melee, which when you realize how buffed up Morboys can get, is often going to be better anyhow.

[mmimzie]

34 minutes ago, Nico said:

This needs to be comped out. Messing with initiative should be limited to the units/specific formations that affect it - Engine of the Gods, Overlords of Chaos and the Fyreslayer Grand Lodge.

I dont know makes bringing a coven throne worth the points to reroll turn. 

[SentinelGuy]

Unfortunately 1 of them munched through 2 units of my blood knights last night.  The dice hate me it seems.

[mmimzie]

That's pretty painful; did he charge you first?

[Dolomedes]

There's an effective way to take down Stonehorn's. 

More guys. if you are getting trouble from a stonehorn, you just didn't bring enough men. I had one get the first turn charge off on me, it cleared a 30 man unit of gors, but another 20 man unit of gors and 30 ungors killed it in my turn straight after, quite easily. It's happened 3 times now, but stonehorns die every time to just weight of numbers, and in my case, ungor spearmen of all things, the most lackluster unit in my army.

[PraetorDragoon]

11 minutes ago, Dolomedes said:

There's an effective way to take down Stonehorn's. 

More guys. if you are getting trouble from a stonehorn, you just didn't bring enough men. I had one get the first turn charge off on me, it cleared a 30 man unit of gors, but another 20 man unit of gors and 30 ungors killed it in my turn straight after, quite easily. It's happened 3 times now, but stonehorns die every time to just weight of numbers, and in my case, ungor spearmen of all things, the most lackluster unit in my army.

Ungor Spearman? Now I am impressed.

[Dolomedes]

Buff em up, run a block of 30, and watch heads roll. That 2 inch range is what does it, on a big model like the stonehorn you can probably get 20 guys in range, give them all 2 attacks with a formation, a +1 to hit and a +1 to wound from characters, rerolls of 1 and 2 to hit, rerolls of 1 to wound... they get pretty scary. Not bad at all for a 180 point unit.

[daedalus81]

You'd still need a fair amount of luck to pull an unwounded one with them, but certainly good for poking some holes in them.