AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion

[simakover]

10-20-20 mortek? cant add 10 more cause 40 cost less then 10-10-10-10

1950/2000 but cant add endless or free CP

[Dracan]

3 hours ago, Sharklone said:

How are people feeling? 

Few things to note with the new rule set.

CA's can only be used once per phase and a unit can only issue or benefit from 1. Which means;

- Only One unit gets an extra attack per phase from the Kavalos or Katakros

- Mortek can't reroll saves and get an extra attack

- You can only move 1 unit an extra 3 inches

- only 1 unit of deathriders can use the wedge in the charge phase

- Zandtos can no longer do an extra attack and reroll wounds.

 

Hopefully an FAQ drops at the same time as the full release. Or we are going to be in a tough place for a little bit.

 

Is this the case though... none of our commands are commands... and we dont get commands... Dont have new rules or obr book in front of me, but doesnt make sense if we get exempted from the rules but get the restriction applied to our rules.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Dracan

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

31 minutes ago, Dracan said:

Is this the case though... none of our commands are commands... and we dont get commands... Dont have new rules or obr book in front of me, but doesnt make sense if we get exempted from the rules but get the restriction applied to our rules.

It sucks, but the rules text is really perfectly clear:

Quote

Relentless discipline points are used in the same manner as command points, but can only be used for command abilities that appear on a warscroll that has the OSSIARCH BONEREAPERS keyword, for Ossiarch Bonereaper Legion command abilities and for the Unstoppable Advance command ability below.

This is the complete list of what you get to spend RDP on. They are still command abilities, though, so all rules that apply to command abilities still apply in this case.

OBR is probably the biggest candidate for a day 1 FAQ, because the whole RDP system, which used to be an upside, is all downside with the new rules.

[baiardo]

14 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

It sucks, but the rules text is really perfectly clear:

This is the complete list of what you get to spend RDP on. They are still command abilities, though, so all rules that apply to command abilities still apply in this case.

OBR is probably the biggest candidate for a day 1 FAQ, because the whole RDP system, which used to be an upside, is all downside with the new rules.

The release is next month?

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

2 minutes ago, baiardo said:

The release is next month?

I'm sorry, but I am not sure what you are trying to say.

We know the current rules of OBR relentless discipline, and we have had access to the new core rules since yesterday. We can say that, unless something changes, they don't get use the new command abilities at this point, and they also don't cricumvent the new restrictions on command abilities (issue/receive only one command per phase).

[Dracan]

I feared the wording might be clear for once lol.
This is quite sad, especially along with the fact that +1 to armour save will be so common now with mystic shield and All out defense, I demand our old petrafix back ☠️😁

[baiardo]

24 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

OBR is probably the biggest candidate for a day 1 FAQ,

I mean the official release  of the new edition.

Yeah I read the new rules, like I said yesterday for me are good rules, my impressions ofc.

Yeah obr need to be adapted to the new system but I'm pretty sure they considered that aspect.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

Just now, baiardo said:

I mean the official release  of the new edition.

Yeah I read the new rules, like I said yesterday for me are good rules, my impressions ofc.

Yeah obr need to be adapted to the new system but I'm pretty sure they considered that aspect.

Yeah, let's hope. I can't imagine they didn't, to be honest. OBR has to either get a quick FAQ that gives them... something or needs an early Battletome release (an maybe wave 2?).

[Sception]

5 hours ago, Sharklone said:

Hopefully an FAQ drops at the same time as the full release. Or we are going to be in a tough place for a little bit.

Pretty much this.  I'm not too worried about it, the issues with obr are pretty clear so we should be getting some kind of faq, and other factions are also reduced by these restrictions.

I expect the following changes, and the following changes only:

1. we'll be allowed to use core commands.  Too much of the game is tied up in them now to exclude us from them, & there have been some social media responses hinting at this.  I'm 70% convinced of this.

2. The core battalions that can give other factions a command point will give us a discipline point.  This is just extention of warscroll battalions doing the same in the past.  I'm 60% convinced of this.

3. The extra 3" movement won't be restricted to 1/phase.  There have been no hints of this, but seems to me that the ability to use this on multiple units is too core to our design.  I'm about 50% convinced of this.

That's it, that's all I'm expecting.  Other than the extra move, I don't expect any exceptions to the 1/phase limit on individual command abilities, and I don't expect any exception at all to the 1 issued per hero per phase limit or the 1 received per unit per phase limit.

Still, between warscroll, subfaction, and core CA's, and between heroes and unit champs issuing them, I don't think we'll have too much trouble finding effective uses for rdp over the course of a battle round.

Yeah, you can't shield wall and duty on the same mortek unit in the same phase, you'll have to be more tactical, making a critical choice between offense and defense instead of just doing all of everything.

Yeah, you can't shield wall on multiple units, but if I'm right about letting us use core CAs then you can shield wall one and all out defense another.  Or if you want to be offensive you can endless duty one and all out attack another.  And being able to re-roll a charge won't hurt either.

Yeah, without the ability to use endless duty multiple times in the same phase, there's less reason to run multiple lieges, but we're expecting points cost increases so that just tells us where we're going to save the points.  Plus it means some of the less used faction and warscroll CAs might see a bit more use.

And with the limit of CAs to 1/phase, our flat immunity to battleshock means more than ever before.

...

Overall, still a definite nerf, don't get me wrong.  Especially relative to other factions which didn't buff stack as much as us since they just didn't have the command points to do it.

That said, setting aside CAs, there are some positive changes to note.  Mortek guard are still a quite solid battleline unit and a great option for single or double reinforcement.  Being on 25mm bases in particular is a major advantage.  Smaller unit sizes generally really helps deathriders feel more threatening.  The new mystic shield is very nice for any armies that aren't running katakros.  The crawler is still quite deadly, and harvesters gain a fair bit from being monsters.

...

On the other hand, it isn't just the restrictions on CAs that look bad for us.  The new coherency rules are not doing stalkers any favors, between that and reinforcement limits they're pretty much limited to msu.  Ditto deathriders.  and monsters are a big problem for us.  Having to choose between shield wall or endless duty is a nerf that I think we can manage, but a roaring monster just shutting off CAs altogether is another matter.

Our own monster selection is pretty limited - Nagash who eats half your army, and Arkhan & the Harvester who are more support pieces than melee beatsticks.  Don't get me wrong, they all benefit from the new big baby tantrum rules, but as a faction we don't gain as much from them as most others.

...

I definitely think we've got a rough patch ahead, at least until we get a new book, and not just for CA limit reasons.  But it isn't all doom and gloom, and we're nit the only faction that will be struggling to adjust.

If nothing else, many obr players used to run Legions of Nagash, and thus have at least part of a gravelords army ready to go.  Unsurprusingly, given they would have been designed with 3e in mind, Gravelords actually do pretty well in the transition, so if obr need to take a break for a bit (along with fec & nighthaunt, neither of them are looking too hot atm either), at least there's one undead faction ready to take up Nagash's banner from day one of 3e and remind the forces of order, destruction, and chaos why they should fear Death.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Sception

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

9 minutes ago, Sception said:

if obr need to take a break for a bit (along with fec & nighthaunt, neither of them are looking too hot atm either)

So THIS was the effect of Teclis ending the Necroquake! Breaking most Death factions in the transition to 3.0!

10/10 deepest lore

[Heijoshin]

Is it conceivable that GW, as part of a rough and dirty FAQ, just say "OBR can now use generic command abilities with command points, and RDP is spent on RDP abilities" - and they simply blanket rename all warscroll command abilities, and batteltome command abilities to "RD abilities"? - Or something to that affect. 

Would mean that we get access to both and that is our "thing" and retain our overabundance of points to spend on things.  Would probably a bit too strong to get 2 buffs, but then again, we still dont have any shenanigans....

Edited June 15, 2021 by Heijoshin

[Harioch]

Maybe it's still easier to make RDP back as CP. OBR will have more than others but the command abilities will count CP and then we'll have to make some though decision since a unit can't have more than one command per phase. Also OBR could have their CP stolen which they could'nt with their RDP system.

Anyway I'm eager to see how they will update OBR rules to fit 3.0.

[Obeisance]

I'm actually pretty concerned that OBR will just be left to rot, really. I just don't have a lot of faith in GW.

Don't get me wrong, I'm hopeful about the new edition. Even cautiously optimistic.

I haven't played in about a year and I'm potentially coming back.

 

 

[Sleboda]

17 hours ago, baiardo said:

Yeah obr need to be adapted to the new system but I'm pretty sure they considered that aspect.

I'm sure they considered it, but not sure that we will like their conclusion.

Nagash is mostly deleted from the setting in terms of the lore, as is Arkhan. Nagash has gone up in points and both he and Arkhan are now likely to short circuit when using the very thing they focus on and cost the points they do for.

Their custom rules system of Discipline, and also their endless spells rules plus the benefits of many of their other abilities, are now a hindrance or at least nowhere near as useful as they were before.

The high volume sales cycle for the entire Bonereapers range is over. (A new range, or new kits, will sell a huge chunk of all the kits it will ever sell in that first year (and indeed the first few weeks) after its initial release.)

The Soulblight Gravelords are the new "hot" undead faction. That's GW's focus now, not encouraging interest in a lagging competitor for the hearts and minds of undead players, especially a range with such different rules construction and key kits direct sales only, much less useful for the points, or otherwise tough to get players to buy. (Remember, Bonereapers can't even take these new undead as allies.)

If I'm GW, I largely move on from Bonereapers and focus on selling Gravelords now. I'm not spending time figuring out how to fit the square peg of Bonereapers into the round hole of the new AoS core rules.

The FAQ is almost certain to be a very rushed patch, with an eye toward a full rework years down the road when it might (might!) make sense to revisit the army, add a few new kits, and resell their rules with fancy new expensive limited edition books, dice sets, and cards. There's just no real incentive to put the work in on them now when they would take such effort to make them remotely viable.

[Obeisance]

6 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

*Snip everything just said*

Basically that. I'm expecting a rushed patch or no patch at all.

If they simply make core battalion = warscroll battalion, I think it'll be ok. 

Maybe?

[baiardo]

2 hours ago, Sleboda said:

I'm sure they considered it, but not sure that we will like their conclusion.

Nagash is mostly deleted from the setting in terms of the lore, as is Arkhan. Nagash has gone up in points and both he and Arkhan are now likely to short circuit when using the very thing they focus on and cost the points they do for.

Their custom rules system of Discipline, and also their endless spells rules plus the benefits of many of their other abilities, are now a hindrance or at least nowhere near as useful as they were before.

The high volume sales cycle for the entire Bonereapers range is over. (A new range, or new kits, will sell a huge chunk of all the kits it will ever sell in that first year (and indeed the first few weeks) after its initial release.)

The Soulblight Gravelords are the new "hot" undead faction. That's GW's focus now, not encouraging interest in a lagging competitor for the hearts and minds of undead players, especially a range with such different rules construction and key kits direct sales only, much less useful for the points, or otherwise tough to get players to buy. (Remember, Bonereapers can't even take these new undead as allies.)

If I'm GW, I largely move on from Bonereapers and focus on selling Gravelords now. I'm not spending time figuring out how to fit the square peg of Bonereapers into the round hole of the new AoS core rules.

The FAQ is almost certain to be a very rushed patch, with an eye toward a full rework years down the road when it might (might!) make sense to revisit the army, add a few new kits, and resell their rules with fancy new expensive limited edition books, dice sets, and cards. There's just no real incentive to put the work in on them now when they would take such effort to make them remotely viable.

Haha well, we’ll see.

I don’t like too much going deep in the marketing/selling points of views of gw, kill the the pathos for me.

If hypothetically they wouldn’t mind to “fix” a faction like obr, at least just a bit because soul blight are the new toys  that’s for me is unprofessional.

If you think that sell your OBR right now, since if that’s the mentality(of gw) there’s no point choosing a faction you like and try to playing it.

Edited June 16, 2021 by baiardo

[Sleboda]

1 hour ago, baiardo said:

If hypothetically they wouldn’t mind to “fix” a faction like obr, at least just a bit because soul blight are the new toys  that’s for me is unprofessional.

If you think that sell your OBR right now, since if that’s the mentality(of gw) there’s no point choosing a faction you like and try to playing it.

How long have you played GW games? Looking for them to focus on old things that are mostly done selling at the expense of promoting new things to sell is a bit of wishful thinking. They've been consistent over the years. Kill the old. Sell the new.

I've got over 10,000 points of Bonereapers. I'm not selling. I've learned my lesson over 35+ years in this hobby to not sell my old stuff. I miss all the old models I've sold, even if I would never play with them again.

[baiardo]

42 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

How long have you played GW games? Looking for them to focus on old things that are mostly done selling at the expense of promoting new things to sell is a bit of wishful thinking. They've been consistent over the years. Kill the old. Sell the new.

I've got over 10,000 points of Bonereapers. I'm not selling. I've learned my lesson over 35+ years in this hobby to not sell my old stuff. I miss all the old models I've sold, even if I would never play with them again.

Wow!that's a lot of points for obr!🤣

I agree they want to sell the new stuff and understand that some factions goes on the top and other in the mid-bottom over the time in a cycle..but this is a new edition, too strange for me believe that a faction is out of the new mechanics of the game. Plus they are the biggest company in this market, hard to believe they can't adjust and playtest something a little. Integrate obr or other factions in the new edition doesn't mean make them op or really good but simply let them enjoy the new game, otherwise why release a new edition at all?

 

P.s: Faqd in a short period of time not necessary at release.

I still play obr this edition however but the start is rough.

Edited June 16, 2021 by baiardo

[Sception]

The company wants to sell new stuff, but they also know that people won't buy the new stuff if they can't play it in the game because the game is so badly balanced that nobody plays it.  And after the fiasco of early AoS, they know that's a legitimate worry.  Beyond that, the company can want lots of things, but the actual dev team are creatives honestly trying to make content that people enjoy and that they can feel proud of.

The problem with GW isn't cynical attempts to push new models by deliberately making old ones bad.  The problem is penny pinching and a fear of leaks leading to too-small development teams, too-short development times and insufficient playtesting and QA loops.  None of the stuff that is bad in the game is bad on purpose.

An honest historical view of their rules bears this out.  Sometimes the new hotness eclipses some established product, but just as often if not more so the new product is worse than what came before.  The best example is Primaris marines, if ever there was a product line that GW wanted to push the heck out of, it's the new version of space marines, yet for pretty much all of their debut edition they were just flat worse in game than the old marine units that GW has been trying to phase out, because they gave the primaris an extra wound to make them cool, but also made them pricier in an honest attempt at balance, and that price hike made them enough less points efficient in the offense department that traditional marines mostly eclipsed them in game.

And that's not the only example.  Plenty of hot new models have had dud new rules over the years, at pretty much the same rate as old models.  Remember when Gloomspite released with those cool new giant trolls, and then the most effective lists from the book were just spamming the same old goblin horde kits they've been selling since the oldhammer days?  Or when FEC was the strongest army in the game, by a wide margin, when they were released, despite being almost entirely old kits?  Or how the strongest unit for chaos mortals / slaves to darkness / most aligned chaos factions continues to be the old and frankly kind of lackluster marauders kit book after book?  I remember when the current 40k csm possessed kit was brand new - they were one of the worst units in the faction at the time.

GW doesn't deliberately tweak rules to sell or unsell particular kits.  Or, at least, doesn't do so consistently and successfully.  They don't have the dev & QA process needed to pull off that kind of fine tuning even if they were trying to.  No, they try and make everything cool and fun and fair, and just miss the mark a lot, especially on that last bit, because it seems like the devs are mostly working blind.  They don't have zero playtesting & QA, but they don't have enough, and they don't go back for revisions and subsequent retesting nearly as much as they would need to.

Honestly, and I'm being completely unironic here, I am frequently pleasantly surprised by how bad this game isn't

Edited June 16, 2021 by Sception

[Antali]

Hello everyone, 

Just some thoughts about OBR in AoS3. I read the new core rules ( like them) and the article about OBR (just making more confusion)  

I feel and understand some of us frustration about Command Abilities (and some other things) but there is a General Handbook is coming alongside with the new edition. I would like to read it before I start worrying to much about this wonderful army.  

Note here: In the article just show half of the description of the Ranks Unbroken by Dissent, we cant see how is ends, maybe OBR will use basic command abilities may not. ( we will see in the General Handbook for sure) 

OBR's RDP generation is just more stronger then before with this Core Battalion system. Let me represent for your with one of my Vanguard army (1000points) idea what I would like to play. 

Legion: Mortis Praetorians-5 drop army

Leader/General: Mortisan Soulreaper
Wrap together with 3-Immortis Guard and 3 Necropolis Stalker in the Battle Regiment Battalion

2.rd Leader:  Mir Kainan + Kainans Reapers(they are separate unit) 

2*10 Mortek Guard in the Hunters of Heartlands Battalion

(The list is contains Nightmare Predator + Bone-Tithe Shrieker, but this not important now.) 

RDP generation:
+2 -Because of the 2 Hero
+2- After the 2 Battalion 
and there is 7 dice to roll to get more points
PLUS: once per battle D3 more RDP from the Katakros's Chosen Command Traits.

Well this very nice, and for sure you will use one or more likely two Battalions.  So I can't see any problem here plus no one can manipulate our RDP. 

Note here: Im sure GW game designers are see a small problem here which is generating a huge amount of RDP and the lack of Command abilities to spend from it. All army have 8 basic (plus there army specific ones). For OBR have 2 basic, 1 from Allegiance, 1 from Legion specific. Rest of them are locked on Heroes or Units, Still not enough options.

So I feel there will be a solution in Handbook but what kind, well, we will see soon. 

(Just give OBR heroes 5+ command point stealing ability and I will be happy  )    

Have good day all of you


 

[Emissary]

New Points:

Mortek Crawler +15
Kavalos Deathriders +10
Mortek Guard +10
Gothizzar Harvester +15
Arch-Kavalos Zandtos -15
Katakros -30
Liege Kavalos -15
Mortisian Boneshaper +5
Mortisian Soulmason Same
Mortisian Soulreaper -5
Vokmortian -35
Arkhan Same
Nagash -5
Immortis Guard +10
Morghast Archai Same
Morghast Harbringers -5
Necropolis Stalkers Same
Bone Tithe Shrieker +55
Nightmare Predator +25
Soulstealer Carrion +65

Edited June 17, 2021 by Emissary

[Sception]

Points are revealed late in this stream:

 

EDIT: NInja'd

Honestly, points are better than I expected.  I wasn't thinking any points reductions would be coming, let alone on our lieges, including katakros.  A bunch of stuff up by a bit, but not by as much as I was thinking they would be.

[baiardo]

Yeah, all in all I'm good with the new points, my list isn't changed except for 1faction endless that I need to cut.

 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by baiardo

[simakover]

so im plannig use 
katakros
3 crawler
10-10-40 mortek
harvester

better just cut 10 mortek for now?
 

 

[baiardo]

6 minutes ago, simakover said:

so im plannig use 
katakros
3 crawler
10-10-40 mortek
harvester

better just cut 10 mortek for now?
 

 

as we have suggested previously, you can't have 40mortek for the new reinforcement rule that say: take a minimum unit size, if battleline take that maximum two more times..so max 30mortek in one unit.