AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Selpharia]

GW having it out for Slaanesh is the default state of affairs, alas, except for our friends on the modeling team. 

I suspect that we’re paying a big premium for, among other things, high movement because of the small board size. With the exception of striders, our fastest stuff has tended to go up more. I have to think that a properly kitted out keeper playing the bully might actually be worth the points with the reduced board size. They still combo very well with Dex, and have a high likelihood of striking the enemy lines wherever they wish. Considering their hand, heroic and monster ability, the fact they can be made to <Fly> and the difficulty of mustering the big hordes that can overwhelm them, the lockdown keeper: (Speed-chaser. Circlet or ward) could be a terrifying, shockingly durable piece that can just zip around the board being exactly where the opponent doesn’t want them.

Weirdly, I think the army has switched from a skirmish to a bully playstyle.

Instead of screening/delaying with our fastest units while the rest of the army does its work, we’ve got to lean hard on picking our fights, movement jank, and restricting the opponent, trading bodies for position early.

But idk, I’m an oddball who enjoys trying to win with things that are supposed to be unusable.

 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Selpharia

[Jaskier]

The positive here is two-fold in that we can still put out some very strong lists - Archaon ones, mostly - and now Slaanesh's points has ascended to a meme amongst what feels like the whole community; almost everyone agrees we've got it bad. Whether it's the next GHB or the end of year update, our points will be going down, rest assured. Until then, I've got quite a few ideas that I think will perform just fine, even just staying in the book. 

Just as an aside, the GHB would have been sent to print months ago, so there's no way the survey would have been reflected in it - in fact, it almost certainly got published before our book got released to the public, so this would just be a result of their own playtesting again. Keep that in mind before you complain that GW ignored us. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Jaskier

[Nagashfan]

I actually don’t think it will be that bad…..grabs Dex box off the shelf to glue …… also Archaon all day now!

[LeonBox]

I honestly think GW would benefit from a little more transparency with stuff like this. Everything's leaks and rumours and then stuff like this hits like a train and leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouths. Surely they want people to be excited about playing the new edition? Surely if they plan on increasing points, they should get out ahead of the outrage and clearly, openly explain why they're doing it? A quick look in some of the other faction's threads reveals a lot of feelsbadman for everyone, not just for us (Tzeentch is also up in arms). 

[Jaskier]

2 hours ago, Nagashfan said:

I actually don’t think it will be that bad…..grabs Dex box off the shelf to glue …… also Archaon all day now!

These two, Sigvald, the Masque, Hellstriders and Blissbarb Archers will all be staples in my lists from now on. Sigvald and Dexcessa in Lurid Haze builds, Archaon in standard Invaders builds. The tournament builds I had planned out for 3.0 need to change but I still think I'll be able to mix it up against the big lads because the core rules and battleplan changes are all very kind to us. 

[Cambyses]

8 hours ago, Feorag said:

 

Really!!!

This is not a delightful agony.

[Feorag]

This pretty much sums up slaangor.

The beasts of chaos page is a hoot.

[Third]

5 hours ago, Jaskier said:

Archaon ones, mostly

 

4 hours ago, Nagashfan said:

also Archaon all day now!

Please note that Archaon is not currently legal in a Hedonites of Slaanesh army..  

 

 

5 hours ago, AngryPanda said:

Ok, so I just took a look at the point changes on reddit (everything is on there, including the endless spell changes). 

Out of all the armies, we have received the largest increase in points, with a whopping +655 or more across our army roster. What the hell. 

Everything above I hold my word to, but I'm definitely going to be watching AoS 3.0 at least a month after its release to observe people's experiences with the army; suffice to say I am speechless again. I can't imagine how Goonhammer, or Honest Wargamer are going to react. 

This fact is sadly exacerbated because our points where mostly too high even before the changes.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Third

[Feorag]

1 minute ago, Third said:

Please note that Archaon is not currently legal in a Hedonites of Slaanesh army..

Why not? 

I thought he was under as the same thing as marked warriors counts as everything but not battleline.

He also has the Hedonites key word

[Thor]

Trying to salvage slaanesh atm

A few of our decent heroes remained relatively unchanged. 

I think sylleske, masque, sigvald are still playable. 

Dexcessa aswell 

Archaon is probably one of our solid options now. With constant CP generation. And only a 30p increase. 

Hellstriders are down... for some reason. And are really decent imo. 

We probably still have to pay for at least one unit of blissbarb archers.

[Feorag]

One thing I have just noticed....

Why is sylle eskke a behemoth?

[Enoby]

8 minutes ago, Feorag said:

One thing I have just noticed....

Why is sylle eskke a behemoth?

Idk, maybe the paint thinner they were huffing for Slaangor points leaked over to the person finishing up Syll'Esske?

But seriously, no clue - especially when the twins aren't. It doesn't really matter because we can't fit many Behemoths in, but it is very weird - almost nonsensical. 

[Third]

41 minutes ago, Feorag said:

Why not? 

I thought he was under as the same thing as marked warriors counts as everything but not battleline.

He also has the Hedonites key word

.... 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Third
I was wrong

[Feorag]

4 minutes ago, Third said:

Factions are now (currently, might be FAQed) defined by what is in your battletome. So you cannot take anything not on the pitched battle profile, and since neither Chaos Warriors nor Archaon is on there, they are not legal (unless taken as allies).

There was another word they used that wasn't allies but worked for things like chaos which I think was cohort so they could be used.

I'm working ATM so can't rewatch the start of the video until later!

[Third]

15 minutes ago, Feorag said:

There was another word they used that wasn't allies but worked for things like chaos which I think was cohort so they could be used.

I'm working ATM so can't rewatch the start of the video until later!

Yeah, I was wrong (I guess this snippet is from the GHB?) 

 

[LeonBox]

6 minutes ago, Third said:

Yeah, I was wrong (I guess this snippet is from the GHB?) 

 

Does this potentially mean Chaos Sorcerers with Marks of Slaanesh can be given a spell from our lore? 

[Feorag]

I have updated as I missed seekers and mispointed syl.

[Jaskier]

Edit: already been addressed. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Jaskier

[Apinecone]

Well these changes are just ugly, not much else I can say there.  Didn't post last night as what can you do?  I guess you just laugh or cry.  Now I am trying to pick up the pieces and make a functioning list, though I don't blame anyone who gives up for now, so far I have 3 bare bones ideas and welcome suggestions.
 

Spoiler

 

Siggy

Dex

LoP

Masque

2x5 Painbringers

10 Twinsouls

2X5 Slickblades

 

Spoiler

 

LoP

Glutos

Siggy

Masque

2x5 Hellstriders

10 Twinsouls

5 Slickblades

Wheels

 

Spoiler

 

LoP

Masque

Epitome

1x11 Blissbarbs

2x5 Painbringers

3x5 Slickblades

Dread Pageant

Wheels

 

 

[Jaskier]

55 minutes ago, LeonBox said:

Does this potentially mean Chaos Sorcerers with Marks of Slaanesh can be given a spell from our lore? 

This is how it's always worked, so presumably once the FAQ drops they will still be able to take one from the Mortal spell lore, whereas Archaon for example would get access to both the Mortal lore and Daemon lore. 

Syll'Esske being a Behemoth is probably just a typo as to my memory they've never been a Behemoth. 

[LeonBox]

33 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

This is how it's always worked, so presumably once the FAQ drops they will still be able to take one from the Mortal spell lore, whereas Archaon for example would get access to both the Mortal lore and Daemon lore. 

Syll'Esske being a Behemoth is probably just a typo as to my memory they've never been a Behemoth. 

Well I had no idea about that. I thought StD sorcerers were not allowed to choose from the Slaanesh mortal lore spells. 

[Enoby]

I think, to be a bit more productive, I'll draft up an email to send on to GW's rules team after the release of the GHB. 

Something along the lines of:

"Hey,

I hope you're well. 

I've had a look through the GHB 2021 and I am really disappointed by the points increases of Hedonites of Slaanesh. 

I know, I know - you've probably got a lot of complaints of points rises from multiple different armies because everything has received a points hike.

However, I'd say Slaanesh were a little different in that regard. A month or two ago, multiple players sent in a survey discussing dissatisfaction the Slaanesh's points in AoS 2. This sentiment was echoed around the YouTube Community (and other prominent figures). You can find a link to the survey results here: [link] and a more thorough look here: [link]

To quickly summarise, of the 300 people who took part in the survey, 79% of them believed a significant number of units in the book were overpointed. 

I hope this clarifies why people are even more disappointed in these recent points increases, compared to other factions that were more reasonably costed beforehand. In addition, the increases on Slaanesh seemed more severe than other factions, even factions who do better than them competitively. 

Unfortunately, many Slaanesh fans feel disappointed and upset by these changes, with some burning out of the army all together.

I understand that you likely see things like this every day, but I implore that you look at the community reaction to the Slaanesh points and reconsider them. 

Normally I would wait to play a few more games with them (though I have played some Slaanesh with AoS 3 rules), but if at all possible I and many other fans are hoping for an 'emergency' points update alongside the FAQ. I know that's not how you usually operate, but excitement amongst Slaanesh fans is at an all time low at the moment, with some people quitting or taking a break. 

Thank you"

I'll tidy it up, and I'll add some more with a few test games, but that's the general angle I'm going for

[MothmanDraws]

I saw the points changes last night.... I joked a few a while ago about slaanesh points going up and people said I was being doom and gloom..... 

 

There legit has to be someone on the warhammer aos rules team actively trying to damage the army at this point, this is beyond forgetting to check the units they were pricing.

[Jaskier]

It's really just that they clearly balanced us around our summoning originally, then applied the "3.0 tax" to us, with particular focus put on stuff they perceived would get big bonuses in 3.0. They obviously had no data to base this off other than their presumably shoddy playtesting (i.e. Slaangors going up) hence why Russ Veal said we only have to wait 6 months before the pain eases up (as they'll have real world data and community feedback by then.) There's still plenty of stuff that makes no sense even if you consider the context, but that's GW for you. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Jaskier

[LeonBox]

I think we're being priced because of our (very competitive) summoning. I also play Tzeentch and our summoning is far more powerful than Tzeentch's because depravity is so much easier to generate than fate points. Compare 30 fate points (and so 30 spells successfully cast) for a Lord of Change versus 12 DPs for a Keeper. It's not uncommon to be able to summon a Keeper in turn 2 against the right opponent. In Tzeentch I've never generated enough fate points for a Lord of Change, even if my opponent is magic-heavy. 

It sucks that we're basically forced to play so heavily into summoning, but the fact is that our summoning is extremely potent and, assuming depravity generation doesn't change, we'll be summoning in roughly 800 points extra in a 2k game. 

I also think it's worth letting the meta settle a little bit before going to GW about this. They're going to treat any sort of response right now as knee-******.

Edited June 18, 2021 by LeonBox