AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Third]

14 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

The Heroic Action chain is also really cool

I'm pretty sure it's a chain of 2 only, you pick 1 to carry out a heroic action, and on a 2+ you duplicate that heroic action, you do not on a 2+ get to pick another to do a heroic action. Still find it plenty strong and during this season there is the ability to do 4 heroics with GCs

[Jaskier]

19 minutes ago, Third said:

I'm pretty sure it's a chain of 2 only, you pick 1 to carry out a heroic action, and on a 2+ you duplicate that heroic action, you do not on a 2+ get to pick another to do a heroic action. Still find it plenty strong and during this season there is the ability to do 4 heroics with GCs

It says "roll a dice each time you pick a friendly Invaders hero to carry out a heroic action" emphasis mine, I think the each time surely means it's supposed to work on each hero, no? 

[KrispyXIV]

7 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

It says "roll a dice each time you pick a friendly Invaders hero to carry out a heroic action" emphasis mine, I think the each time surely means it's supposed to work on each hero, no? 

Thats my read too.  I also didn't see any reason you can't repeatedly pick the same Command Trait for each character, you just can't pick one that hero already has... meaning it seems like you can Hurl all the Obscenities...

[Third]

4 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

It says "roll a dice each time you pick a friendly Invaders hero to carry out a heroic action" emphasis mine, I think the each time surely means it's supposed to work on each hero, no? 

I might be wrong, but why are everyone raving about Pretenders then? Invaders are insane if this is the case 😮 
I don't like how it actually plays out though during the game.. It's a metric ton of rolling dice
 

[KrispyXIV]

7 minutes ago, Third said:

I might be wrong, but why are everyone raving about Pretenders then? Invaders are insane if this is the case 😮 
I don't like how it actually plays out though during the game.. It's a metric ton of rolling dice
 

I think Pretenders may be the obvious best (and probably the actual best), but I don't think the gap is as huge as some people are saying.  

Invaders appears to have some obvious shenanigans - stuff like heroes being able to get +2 to all their attacks values between a command trait and the icon, stacking hurler of obscenities, etc. - and Godseeker's also looks to have some shenanigans.

[Jaskier]

15 minutes ago, Third said:

I might be wrong, but why are everyone raving about Pretenders then? Invaders are insane if this is the case 😮 
I don't like how it actually plays out though during the game.. It's a metric ton of rolling dice
 

Basically the difference is Pretenders will have a boat load of guaranteed CP versus Invaders having to roll for theirs (if they do that heroic action) and Pretenders having some extreme debuff tech, the triple-commands are also incredible.

[Selpharia]

It’s a bit of a shame to see that Dexcessa doesn’t appear to have changed at all, even though a native -1 to hit just doesn’t do much. Synessa’s also not much different but at least they were in a better spot to begin with.

[KrispyXIV]

Just now, Selpharia said:

It’s a bit of a shame to see that Dexcessa doesn’t appear to have changed at all, even though a native -1 to hit just doesn’t do much. Synessa’s also not much different but at least they were in a better spot to begin with.

I'm not sure how much I trust Dexcessa's warscroll.  The change to one of her weapons being listed as a 3" missile weapon is... extremely suspect.

[araness]

Just now, Selpharia said:

It’s a bit of a shame to see that Dexcessa doesn’t appear to have changed at all, even though a native -1 to hit just doesn’t do much. Synessa’s also not much different but at least they were in a better spot to begin with.

Agreed - I was hoping for Synessa and Dexcessa to get a *slight* glow up, but again, feeling a bit underwhelmed for what are supposed to be 'piece' of Slaanesh. Would love to see how people would use them, especially Dexcessa! (For such beautiful models, it kinda sucks!) 

[Selpharia]

14 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

I'm not sure how much I trust Dexcessa's warscroll.  The change to one of her weapons being listed as a 3" missile weapon is... extremely suspect.

Agreed but it’s probably just a case of putting the weapon in the wrong category. Although, getting them an ablative -1 plus a 5+’ward seems a decent way of keeping them alive. I think you end up having to run the Twins in Invaders, since that lets you do enough heroic actions to make them at least somewhat interesting. Definitely fighting from underneath the rules though

Edited March 16, 2023 by Selpharia

[Rachmani]

I like it the twins from a lore perspective. They’re like little baby godlings, were born just yesterday. 
They need to experience the world, learn from it, get a power up in 4.0 and get rereleased in their war forms in a couple of years when they‘ve fully developed.

[Enoby]

I'll hopefully have the chance to write my thoughts in full later, but at a glance I really like the Painbringers as an elite option now - having a 3+ (potentially a 3+1) save, and very easy access to +1 to hit and wound. They do slightly less damage than the old Painbringers, when accounting for the loss of Exploding 6s (around 5.6 damage vs 4.7 vs a 4+ save), but they're much tankier - especially if you get to 36 depravity quickly. 

Also, when you get to 24 depravity, their damage beats the damage of the old ones by 5.6 vs 7.4. If you do get them to 2s and 2s (which won't come from their own scroll), then they'll be doing around 10 damage vs a 4+. 

I really love Painbringers, so I'm glad I have so many. More than that, I'm glad nothing seems to be stepping on toes - Twinsouls have gone from blenders to more 'tricky' with potential high damage, and Slaangors have moved to take their place as the glass cannons. It should hopefully lead to more varied lists. 

It is a shame about the Twins though!

[KrispyXIV]

2 minutes ago, Enoby said:

I'll hopefully have the chance to write my thoughts in full later, but at a glance I really like the Painbringers as an elite option now - having a 3+ (potentially a 3+1) save, and very easy access to +1 to hit and wound. They do slightly less damage than the old Painbringers, when accounting for the loss of Exploding 6s (around 5.6 damage vs 4.7 vs a 4+ save), but they're much tankier - especially if you get to 36 depravity quickly. 

Also, when you get to 24 depravity, their damage beats the damage of the old ones by 5.6 vs 7.4. If you do get them to 2s and 2s (which won't come from their own scroll), then they'll be doing around 10 damage vs a 4+. 

I really love Painbringers, so I'm glad I have so many. More than that, I'm glad nothing seems to be stepping on toes - Twinsouls have gone from blenders to more 'tricky' with potential high damage, and Slaangors have moved to take their place as the glass cannons. It should hopefully lead to more varied lists. 

It is a shame about the Twins though!

What do we think of mixed MSU Painbringers and Twinsouls?  I'm thinking 5 painbringers 'in front' of twinsouls, since the twinsoul -attack aura is a full 3 inches, and if you pile in creatively you should be able to get the twinsouls to fight through the gaps in the painbringers if my understanding of geometry is right...

Trying to leverage the strengths of both units.

[Enoby]

11 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

What do we think of mixed MSU Painbringers and Twinsouls?  I'm thinking 5 painbringers 'in front' of twinsouls, since the twinsoul -attack aura is a full 3 inches, and if you pile in creatively you should be able to get the twinsouls to fight through the gaps in the painbringers if my understanding of geometry is right...

Trying to leverage the strengths of both units.

I think it would definitely be worth trying. I think, average damage wise, twinsouls aren't the powerhouses they were - but I don't think they're meant to be. I think they're meant to be a tricky unit like you're suggesting - something to disrupt and annoy rather than truly threaten. 

Have a look at the average damage graph:

I think Slickblades (into 2 wound units so they have four attacks) will be key, but they're still flimsy and so will keel over after their first go over. A good alpha strike, especially when combined with a Keeper for the double pile in, but I think the support of the Twinsouls and Painbringers will be important - and Blissbarbs hold up really well too. 

I think a Pretenders Keeper with Strength of God hood and the Crown of Dark Secrets would be a good idea. Use the crown and dump it into the Fane to be wounding on 2s for the rest of the battle, and always all out attack so they're on 2s and 2s, which when combined with Strength of Godhood, makes their damage look like this:

I'd be tempted running a Keeper with Flaming Weapon and leave Phantasmagoria on a different unit. With the ability to give three commands, you can let three units such as Slickblades and Blissbarbs run 6 to get into a better position. Better yet, I believe this can be used with reposition, allowing for some really complex maneuvers. If they have Flaming Weapon, their damage becomes rather silly:

 

[Jaskier]

Assuming that artifact only works while you're still holding onto it, I don't think you want to do a permanent sacrifice; Fane (1 turn), Acquiescence, Finest Hour, Syll'Esske, etc all give +1 to-wound anyway so it shouldn't be necessary. Another place to look at is Invaders where the Keeper can get two sources of +1 attack through Best of the Best (via heroic action or being the chosen general) and the Icon of Infinite Excess, I dunno if the maths ends up being better than a buffed Godhood Keeper but it's worth mentioning as an alternative. If the Invaders heroic action works on Shalaxi she might actually be worth looking at there too. 

Edited March 17, 2023 by Jaskier

[KrispyXIV]

1 minute ago, Jaskier said:

Assuming that artifact only works while you're still holding onto it, I don't think you want to do a permanent sacrifice; Fane (1 turn), Acquiescence, Finest Hour, Syll'Esske, etc all give +1 to-wound. Another place to look at is Invaders where the Keeper can get two sources of +1 attack through Best of the Best (via heroic action or being the chosen general) and the Icon of Infinite Excess, I dunno if the maths ends up being better than a buffed Godhood Keeper but it's worth mentioning as an alternative. If the Invaders heroic action works on Shalaxi she might actually be worth looking at there too. 

Yeah, I'm not clear on how that works with unique characters either.  The core rules are quite clear that if a unique character somehow ends up with an enhancement, they can't use it - but that apparently doesn't apply to spells so who knows if it applies here either?

[Carnith]

I'm really liking a lot of what we got here. I'm very happy for the book. I'm curious to try double keeper in invaders to try to give them both a lot of attacks. I'm curious about unique heroes as well, as Shalaxi would be such a killer here with this heroic action. 3 attacks on soul piercer (or 4 with icon) is just going to drive some heroes into the grave. 

 

 

[Jaskier]

Warscroll early thoughts, apologies for the long post; 

Keepers; first off, an extra two wounds + leaner degrading chart (start at 9) + no degrading on the greatblade is already a big improvement. I'm glad to see the shield isn't the only buffed wargear choice, even if I think it's probably the default choice (because it adds an effective 8 wounds) the whip, knife and hand all got big buffs and have cases where they will shine. Dark Temptations got a dramatic improvement, it's essentially a free D3 mortals or depravity points every time any Keepers (it only triggers once per phase regardless of how many Keepers you have) are within 3" of something in the combat phase. Excess is different but in my view stronger even though it's only once per game now; it no longer eats up your command for that phase, leaving you free to do something else, and it synergises beautifully with the new Euphoric Killers to ensure you get as much Depravity as possible from a single combat. This also got a lot of indirect buffs by virtue of Slaanesh now having a bunch of ways to add bonus attacks, add +1 to-hit and to-wound, and lots of ways to debuff enemies (to make the Keeper survive longer) as well as -1 save debuffs to amplify its damage and ensure those 5 Damage claws get through. Then you add on the artifact/trait combinations it can take that can give it anything from; bonus attacks, strikes first, 6" pile-ins, bonuses to Rend and Damage, all the way to debuff zones with -1 attack auras, strike last auras, etc you can get really crazy combos going. At 400 it's pricey and not so much worth it as a combat monster, but as a decently tough utility piece that can punch hard in the right circumstances? This has a lot of play. 

Shalaxi; much of what I said above applies here too, but the biggest thing here is Shalaxi is now no longer useless against non-heroes. Firstly her spear is now D3+3 Damage instead of D6 and gained a bonus attack, making her average output way higher; for reference, her average unsaved damage against a 4+ save was ~9 (using a median score on the D6) and it's now closer to 15! A big buff. Her Cloak now works against everything, not just heroes, meaning she's permanently -1 to be hit and wounded; combine that with the 16 wounds and 5++ from the shield and she's legitimately pretty darned tough. She does get this instead of +1 save but those are easier to come by so I think the new version is definitely a lot stronger. Overall, she's not as good as a Keeper by virtue of not having Excess or access to traits/artifacts but they did at least fix her rules; she will, on average rolling, kill a Skarbrand equivalent in one go. Noice. Like the Keeper, she also got indirect buffs in the forms of the various +1 attack/hit/wound sources; there's definitely a world in which she can one-shot even the tougher heroes in the game, so that's something. I believe she should revert to being cheaper than a normal Keeper, but she definitely at least distinguishes herself as a fighter properly now. She belongs in Invaders where she can benefit from the Icon and (potentially, this depends on whether uniques are eligible to benefit from this heroic action) Best of the Best through the heroic action chain to literally double her attacks. 

Synessa; I'm disappointed the twins stayed largely the same and even got what I feel are undeserved points hikes, but I still see merit in Synessa at least. The changes here are she lost knowing all lore spells and unlimited range Pavane of Slaanesh, but her shooting attack is far more potent - it can and will instagib support heroes virtually guaranteed, though it's unclear if it is intended that she can bypass the GalleChamp rules for targeting - and her Voice rule now actually has a purpose by acting as an unlimited range free command. Her warscroll spell also got a nice buff, as a targeted +1 to-wound is going to be more impactful than a targeted +1 to-hit given how much more accessible the latter is. She's also a Warmaster which is neat. The points increase and uncertainty over whether she can actually ignore the current hero targeting rules leaves me questioning her usefulness, but I figure that if she can actually snipe heroes she's absolutely a good unit just on that virtue alone. 

Dexcessa; besides gaining the Warmaster rule, Dexcessa didn't change at all (going off the assumption that her missile weapon is a misprint and is actually a melee weapon) save to go up by a lot of points, the opposite of what she needed. Conceptually she's not bad, just not quite at the right point bracket; ideally once she's cheap enough she'll be a good 'distraction' unit that opponents can't really afford to ignore, but her initial damage is just a tad too weak to justify her current points. She's also a Warmaster which is pretty handy given she gets a free command every turn, and for both twins it's worth mentioning that both get more out of the new depravity buffs than before, as the -1 stacks with their own to negative positive to hit modifiers, and the 5+ ward is theoretically easier to reach than ever. 

Syll'Esske; I'm a big fan of what they've done here, they've improved the melee profile of both weapons (dramatically in Syll's case) and changed the wonky aura ability to an incredible +1 to-hit and to-wound bubble, albeit still with a tricky activation clause. Where I can this being really valuable is on the flanks, or in the middle if you are clever with your positioning to move units just out or in of the wholly within to buff others. Even if you have this unit only within range of itself and say a unit of Slickblades, you're still going to be quite happy. Interestingly, the output increase means this unit is pound for pound one of the more deadly heroes in the book, and it's now a Warmaster to boot. They're bloody good, and for what feels like the first time ever, I'm happy to say I don't think I'm the only one who will field them! 

The Masque; if there's a contest for most improved unit, I think the Masque probably wins it. +1 to-wound and +1 Damage make her a very, very relevant combat character suddenly, and her bonus attacks got changed from D3 to flat 3; combine this with hew new ability to ambush pre-battle just outside of 3" of any enemy units to set up cheeky turn one charges for Euphoric Killers farming or just to assassinate vulnerable small heroes and so on and I honestly could care less that she lost her flying 6" pile-in gimmick. There's absolutely going to be situations where you run up Blissbarb Seekers or other support pieces to stack save debuffs on her target, pop Finest Hour immediately and just push your army onto the -1 to-hit threshold before your opponent even gets a turn. She's freaking great and regardless of anything else will force your opponent to be extremely cautious in their deployment. 

Glutos; while it doesn't look like many changes at first, this guy got some mega buffs. First off, he doesn't lose his companion abilities anymore, meaning all those bonus stat profiles stay there (which offsets losing an attack on the big guys.) He degrades less harshly in general and lost a few minor abilities, but the big thing here is that he now has a permanent 5+ ward save; given he used to lose this after suffering 5 wounds, this is a pretty dramatic improvement. Further, his command ability is now just an ability...and thus incredible to freely use on himself or Sigvald, making for one of the absolute tankiest units in the game. He retained his -1 to-hit aura which considering 12DP provides an army-wide -1 to-hit aura means taking Glutos completely negates All Out Attack for your opponent. His damage output shot up too as he gained a super reliable Damage 6 attack albeit with 0 Rend, and -2 Rend on the luggers' claws. He also retains his amazing spell, though he did lose his +1 to casts/etc. This is another case like Twinsouls where our multiple -1 to save abilities can dramatically change the math, especially with that 6 Damage shooting attack. In any case, fantastic unit that you'll be more than happy to use as a screen/anchor point due to how rapidly he'll just heal himself back up. 
Sigvald; losing Lurid Haze ambush, but gaining an in-faction 3D6 charge spell (Godseekers) and flat Damage 2 on his sword leaves me quite high on Sigvald. Definitely still a great unit. 

Viceleader; at 140 this is a spendy hero, but it now deals double Damage, synergises with Daemonettes to strike out of sequence, and its warscroll spell is greatly improved. These are very good.
Enrapturess; she's another way, like all our ranged units, of pinging units to activate our tempation dice mechanic. She lost her dispel but her mortal wound ability now affects casting rolls that include any 6s; I think ultimately she remains a utility summon for the most part. 

Bladebringer on Exalted Chariot; this is the only chariot I own so it's the only one I'm going to cover. Like with the other daemon heroes, the damage output is improved a fair bit, the warscroll spell is much improved, and this unit now has a really cool trick to issue two commands (the second being free) to two seperate Exalted CHariot units simultaneously. The big change is in the mortal wound grind; gone is the passive mortals at the start of each fight phase that generate bonus attacks, but the charge mortals got revamped instead; it now scales based off the charge roll (and thus synergises perfectly with Godseekers and the 3D6 charge spell) and does a mortal per roll that exceeds the targets' save characteristic, meaning it's gone from a grinder to an elite blender. The better a targets' save, the easier it is to proc the mortals, meaning something like a Megaboss would have to be quite worried about one or more of these slamming into it. It is extremely expensive for how fragile it is, but it's definitely a cool unit - and again, the amount of attacks really key off the new DP ability for 6s do mortals in addition. I do think the regular Exalted Chariot might have more play by virtue of being a lot cheaper and thus easier to run multiples, with the added bonus rule of gaining additional damage each time they receive a command; this can get really crazy really fast if it wasn't obvious. 

Epitome; another unit that screams "pick me" but with the caveat that it may be tricky to keep alive to make the most out of it. Being a 2 cast wizard that re-rolls casts and a Galletian Champion with a 2+ ward against mortal wounds is incredible in the current season, especially with a hefty points drop of 50 - this unit is going to see a tonne of play, regardless of anything else. In the new book, it has a plethora of really strong traits to choose from that can turn it into a legitimate combat monster; Strength of Godhood and Flaming Weapon plus any source of +1 to-hit and +1 to-wound (the latter it can conveniently access through its own spell) turns this into an absolute blender. Further, while it lost its old locus rule to stop enemies attacking it and be pseudo-survivable in combat, it now has an arguably far stronger overall effect for a game state in the form of a no retreat and no commands (issued or received) ability that affects enemies within 3". While it is going to be very vulnerable in melee, there are ways to cheese this, notably by edge-tapping units with it and then engaging on another side, or even better, corner-tapping both sides of a big scary unit like Chosen with this and a Lord of Hubris, forcing them to stay in combat, not be able to pile-in closer to either unit without breaking coherency, and waste their time trying to get through a 4+ ward hero that can have numerous debuffs stacked around him to ensure he never dies. It also, like Viceleaders, now gives +1 to-wound via its spell, targeting D3 units at 24", and it's still fast as heck. Incredible unit. Absolutely incredible. 

Lord of Pain; a lot tougher, reflecting more mortal wounds, and possesses one of the best aura abilities in the game that is very easy to trigger. This will be seen in any list that takes mortals, especially because his aura even affects missile weapons. Seriously, he's bonkers. The math on every mortal unit in the book needs to be considering this guy next to them. 
Lord of Hubris; the 5+ save is weird, but honestly the combination of the taunt ability and giving both Myrmidesh and Symbaresh fight on death when considering that both units are likely going to be nastier than ever is a big win in my books. I think this guy has a tonne of play with players that know how to abuse his taunt, especially considering you can edge tag units with him and engage most of the unit with something else. I think the Lord of Pain is probably the more 'obvious' take of the two Lords, but in good hands, this model - especially if you combo it with a Contorted Epitome, or the spell that allows a unit to retreat from an enemy when they are chosen to fight - can do some incredible work. 

Shardspeaker; another huge glowup, -1 save and -1 attack debuffs are some of the strongest in the game and she has both of them. She also gets a 4+ ward save and turns into a Lord of Pain melee-wise the moment she casts a spell, making her an obvious Arcane Tome user (to ensure she gets at least 1 spell off.) She's so inexpensive and so potentially strong that you're probably looking at a near-obvious auto-include unit. 

Blissbarbs; so, the best way to analyse these is in context of Depravity. In the old book, these were the primary way to generate DP through pinging numerous units, but they were strong and cheap enough to also focus fire things if needed. In the new book, they've gone up a bit in points and no longer ping units for DP, but they serve a different function; temptation dice. If you're hit by a Blissbarb unit from afar, you're guaranteed to either chug an extra D3 mortals or give the Slaanesh player D6 DP. They also went up to 3+ to-hit on their warscroll, meaning that when boosted - such as by a Lord of Pain, or just by All Out Attack (and their Homonculus) - they are now rocking on 2s and 3s. These are now comparable to Namarti Reavers and thus a highly efficient shooting unit before even considering that they will usually be dealing D3 mortals on top thanks to spreading temptation dice. The kicker is they barely increased in points.

Myrmidesh; 3+ base save with an optional +1 that's quite easy to trigger (your opponent gets on an objective, you move your Myrmidesh up to fight them your Myrms get a 2+ save!) A bonus attack offsets the loss of the mortals (which they gain back through allegiance) though this does come with a steep price increase. However, contextually these will now usually be -1 to-be-hit and it's much more likely they'll gain the 5+ ward in a game now. I think these are great, and while some might want to reinforce them I see a lot of value in 5-man bully units; they will usually be outnumbered on objectives so triggering the +1 is easy, and with 16 attacks from a base unit they're going to punch well above their weight. 

Symbaresh; short of not having 3 wounds like was rumored, these are definitely one of the more interesting units in the book. At a glance they lost some mobility and their offensive output is reduced with no access to re-roll hits, a worse to-wound score, less reach and less attacks, but on considering that they now have easy ways to gain +1 to-hit and to-wound (and natively hit on 3s) as well as the Rend, plus the context of being in an army that has a plethora of -1 save debuffs, these may well be deadlier than ever as they won't hit like paper against high armor units. They're also going to be tougher due to the mix of reducing enemy attacks, the always-on 5+ ward (once within 3" of enemies) and the nigh guaranteed -1 to-be hit. 

Slickblades; besides Seekers, these are likely the new fastest melee cavalry unit in the game and that by itself means they're a darned good unit. Losing exploding 6s on hits (bonus hits) and wounds (mortal wounds) does even out them gaining -2 Rend and potential bonus attacks, but once you hit the 24DP threshold and stack bonus attacks or the various +1 sources for hitting and wounding these can be absolutely terrifying. They're still very much glass cannons but these are a prime unit to farm depravity early in the game, and will likely see a lot of play for that reason alone. 

Blissbarb Seekers; don't let the 12" range fool you, these hyper-mobile cavalry (their actual effective total shooting range is 32") have the all important distinction of pinging a unit with -1 to saves until the end of that turn the moment they suffer an unsaved wound against them. Without any buffs, this unit averages at least 2 unsaved wounds on any save bracket, forcing that -1 to saves. You will take these. You will combo them with massed stacked bonus attack melee hammers, and you will kill anything you touch. Fantastic. 

Slaangors; from the uncontested worst unit in the game to an absolute blender glass cannon unit, these retain the same warscroll from the Beasts of Chaos book but are arguably in a better spot here (it's a tradeoff of the ambush versus the supercharged buffs they can get.) Alongside Slickblades and Twinsouls, these are the biggest beneficiaries of stacking save debuffs and hit/wound buffs, easily accessed because they are mortals, meaning they also benefit from other mortal specific abilities such as Glutos' bravery abilities. Given that this unit can also natively fight twice, they are a perfect counterpart with a Lord of Hubris (to protect them) so they can farm an excessive amount of depravity through Euphoric Killers. 

Hellstriders; the first and most obvious change is both units soaring up 30 points which never feels great, though it bears mentioning these are now unlockable and not default Battleline. Like some other units, gaining a 5+ Rally built-in is neat enough, as is the new +1 to run and charge; they do lose the old +2 Bravery, meaning battleshock is now a real issue for them even with the re-roll. For the spear unit, gaining an attack and a further bonus attacks and Damage for their spears just as long as they are near enemies (meaning it doesn't require a charge) is neat and oddly enough makes them somewhat comparable in terms of output to Slickblades, trading Rend -2 for Damage 2. The problem here is that it only works if they are near the enemy unit at the start of the charge phase, meaning you won't get the buff on the turn you charge into an enemy unit. It's an unusual rule for sure. The scourge unit also gained an attack but traded their gimmicky -1 to be hit rule for just completely shutting off objective scoring for 1 to 2 wound models within 3" of them; I shouldn't need to explain why the scourge unit is easily the better of the two units, but I will anyway - your fast, decently tough 5-strong screening Battleline units can charge into weak units like Clanrats and completely negate their scoring. This gives them a cool niche that Slickblades can't fill. 

Daemonettes; these got a nice improvement in the form of 3+ to-hit and native 5+ Rally. They trade the old form of exploding 6s for the potential new one, making them absolutely a force to be reckoned with even summoned in late in the game where the depravity buffs pull a lot of weight. These are solid, I'm not sure you'd necessarily want to start with them over say Myrmidesh but these can actually blender things now which is very much worth mentioning, and once the buffs stack up they will shred things faster than anything else. 

Fiends; D3 damage all the time on the claws, Rend -2 on the stingers. Losing a claw attack and old exploding 6s again balances this out somewhat, but the big news here is that Fiends now always have a -1 aura for both hitting and wounding that isn't conditional on their unit size; this is yet another unit that negates All Out Attack, and the -1 to-wound gives them a huge buffer even in a small 3-strong unit. The other thing to note, as it's very relevant for them, is that the army now has easily accessed bonus attack sources, which given the spikey nature of their stingers can be a big deal. Furthermore, their anti-wizard tech now extends to unbinding and dispelling, indirectly buffing your own casters. Where these used to only be worth it reinforced, I definitely see even small units being quite good as annoying tarpits. 

Seekers; the actual fastest melee cavalry in the game, these are another unit that had some very deceptive changes, gaining a 5+ Rally, as well as +1 to run and charge rolls. Their Soul Hunter rule got a more pronounced change, now only activating off units with 1 or 2 wounds per and only affecting the claws but it's now permament and, surprisingly, stackable. Though not as punchy as Slickblades, the key thing to note here is that, in conjunction with depravity abilities to tank them up and the 5+ Rally, these can sustain very well and have the unique distinction of stackable permanent attack bonuses, meaning a big unit can theoretically gain up to +9 attacks on their claws going into the last fight phase of the game. Given that these are now also Battleline by default (which is fantastic as they are a hyper fast screen that blocks a lot of space and are cheaper than Hellstriders) I think these will absolutely have play. With only a 1" reach I doubt you would ever want to hyper invest into a blob of them, but units of 5 or 10 both look respectable as super mobile blockers and chaff clearers that can in theory become incredibly deadly if left alone. 
 

Edited March 17, 2023 by Jaskier

[Jaskier]

The thing I keep repeating and thinking is that this army really has so many exterior abilities beyond the warscrolls and buffs/debuffs that will completely change the math and how valuable certain units can really be. It's going to be really vulnerable to getting alpha struck but it has so many tools that I honestly think almost every unit could well have play competitively just by virtue of bringing something to the table that the book can really expand and capitalise on. Like the durability of things looks suspect in some cases but the amount of -Attacks, -Hit, and even a few sprinklings of -Wound and things like corner tapping with Lords of Hubris, denying scoring through Hellstriders, completely shutting down movement with Glutos + Slothful or Pavane, numerous ways to turn off commands and so on will all add up. I've been seeing some say that this army could well have Nurgle beat for actual in-game durability if everything lines up and I honestly can't say they're necessarily wrong. This book is flower waiting to bloom, there's so many possibilities and ways it can go, it's the most excited I've been for an AoS book in years!

 

Oh, I forgot to add to the last post, I'm fairly sure Slaangors are point-for-point the deadliest unit in the army once you buff them up. They are darned good if you can keep them alive. 

Edited March 17, 2023 by Jaskier

[Enoby]

5 hours ago, Jaskier said:

This book is flower waiting to bloom, there's so many possibilities and ways it can go, it's the most excited I've been for an AoS book in years!

I totally agree - the book looks incredibly exciting, and more, I don't think there's some clear winner that everyone will end up spamming, at least, it's not an obvious clear winner. 

I've been messing around with a few lists and it all feels much better now - a lot more light synergy and actual decisions that have to be made. It seems like it could be a tactically demanding book, which is exactly what I want to see; I'm especially excited as I doubt many games will look the same with the Temptation Dice added. 

[JerekKruger]

6 hours ago, Jaskier said:

The thing I keep repeating and thinking is that this army really has so many exterior abilities beyond the warscrolls and buffs/debuffs that will completely change the math and how valuable certain units can really be.

Yeah it's deceptive in that way. If you look purely at Myrmidesh you get a unit which is comparable to Chaos Warriors for 35 points more per five. You're probably a bit better outside of a Mortals heavy environment, but it's not that big a difference.

But then you look at the various buffs you can get. Depravity some will quickly give you the -1 to be hit (not as good as the Mark of Nurgle I'd say, but comparable) and 6s causing a Mortal in addition! A bit more work and you can get a 5+ Ward, which is better than the Chaos Rune Shield ability. Then on top of that things like lowering event saves, giving +1 to hit and wound rolls etc. And Myrmidesh quickly overtake Chaos Warriors.

And this applies to everything in the army, not just Myrmidesh. Any time you see a warscroll in this book that compares poorly to one in another book remember this (and when you see one that compares well...)

[zombiepiratexxx]

In terms of kitting out Kippers/Shalaxi I'm not sure the Aegis is auto-take, or higher priority. Hand still seems pretty good, especially when you consider that it might not be that hard, or take that long, to hit the global 5+ ward from depravity. There seems to be a lot of list building options and, with the points being quite high, it'll definitely be an army where you're not going to be able to cram in everything you want. Our Cavalry overall seems really good no matter what option you take, they all have roles to play, the heroes are amazing and as Depravity isn't locked into them they all have interesting roles that you can build around. Mortals still seem better than Daemons but I don't think you're going to feel handicapped if you take more Daemons now. 

Liberal smattering of Warmasters allows you to play Pretenders pretty easily and maintain your 3CP a turn with a general around so there's even protection there, especially with how good Glutos and Syll'eske are now. I've not felt this excited about Slaanesh for a long time and have even pushed aside my current painting project to get painting Slaanesh before I've even got the book in my hand. 

[KrispyXIV]

6 minutes ago, zombiepiratexxx said:

Liberal smattering of Warmasters allows you to play Pretenders pretty easily and maintain your 3CP a turn with a general around  

Pretenders battle traits key off of "the model picked to be your general", so I'm 90% sure warmasters don't work for this.  

[MothmanDraws]

I think most armies will form around a mortal core, only real daemon investment will likely be either a supped up keeper or more likely a chariot group, The rest are useful summons. If you are buying daemons they will be for a specific build type.

[Jaskier]

1 hour ago, zombiepiratexxx said:

In terms of kitting out Kippers/Shalaxi I'm not sure the Aegis is auto-take, or higher priority. Hand still seems pretty good, especially when you consider that it might not be that hard, or take that long, to hit the global 5+ ward from depravity. There seems to be a lot of list building options and, with the points being quite high, it'll definitely be an army where you're not going to be able to cram in everything you want. Our Cavalry overall seems really good no matter what option you take, they all have roles to play, the heroes are amazing and as Depravity isn't locked into them they all have interesting roles that you can build around. Mortals still seem better than Daemons but I don't think you're going to feel handicapped if you take more Daemons now. 

Liberal smattering of Warmasters allows you to play Pretenders pretty easily and maintain your 3CP a turn with a general around so there's even protection there, especially with how good Glutos and Syll'eske are now. I've not felt this excited about Slaanesh for a long time and have even pushed aside my current painting project to get painting Slaanesh before I've even got the book in my hand. 

I think the best reason to run the shield is to deny alpha strikes, the Keeper only gets value out of the hand if it can sustain in combat and in the current meta there's a fair chance it never makes it without that 5++. The other thing is while I can see hitting 12DP on turn one and even 24 on turn one being achievable, 36 for the 5++ feels like a likely turn three activation unless you get a good matchup with a juicy EK target. You also have to consider you'll likely want to summon at least one unit just for objective caps so staying at/around 36 before the Keeper gets yoinked by something scarier seems unlikely. Depends on the matchups really I think.