AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[swarmofseals]

@Enoby Figuring out what characters to include is really hard. Really really hard. Aside from Archaon builds (which are their own animal), I see several categories:

• The big guys: Keeper of Secrets, Glutos, Kairos -- I think we can afford to fit two of these in a list but probably not 3. It's really hard to give up the Keeper. In Godseekers he's just the best chassis for Speed Chaser + Enrapturing Circlet, and in Invaders you really want one for the CA (although you can perhaps summon in one for this purpose). Glutos brings a lot to the table but no one thing that he does is particularly essential.
• The medium guys: Bladebringer on Exalted, Contorted Epitome, Syll'Esske, Be'lakor -- Bladebringer could be a poor man's keeper in Godseekers, I guess. Epitome have good speed and a small enough base that they can be a real help with summoning and add a lot of good magic and anti-magic. Overwhelming Acquiescence should be great. Syll'Esske is meh but the command ability is really good for MSU slickblade builds. Be'lakor is Be'lakor -- doesn't specifically further our plan much, but is such a powerful piece in some matchups.
• The little guys: Chaos Sorcerer Lord, Shardspeaker, The Masque - CSL is only for builds that take at least one large StD unit, of course. Shardspeaker is a nice support piece. The Masque is interesting as a very fast hero on a small base that is pretty resilient. They can zip through the enemy line and summon someplace difficult for the opponent to deal with. I think builds that don't start with a Keeper probably want to start with the Masque.

I don't think that we can afford to overspend on characters. The primary weakness of the faction is going to be getting overloaded before we get a chance to start summoning, and the less defensive efficiency we have on the table at the start the more vulnerable we will be to this. That's why I don't think we can realistically spend like 1000+ points on leaders except for Archaon builds.

I need to try out some Keeper + Glutos and Keeper + Contorted Epitome builds as well as some Keeperless builds. Godseekers seems so clutch for the improved ability to charge off the summon, but maybe that can be compensated with by using cogs. Glutos plus cogs is a spicy meatball. Start with the defense mode, and then when you start summoning you speed up time to get your summons in easily. I could see an Invaders build that starts with Glutos, Contorted Epitome and a third hero and aims to summon a Keeper as the first summon being really good.

The more I theorize and play with this book the more that I think it's a solid A-tier factions with multiple competitive approaches. I think it's going to be a more difficult faction to play than most, so list performance in tournaments is probably going to depend a lot on who is playing the army. I suspect players who aren't already quite good will fare badly with the army if they don't bother to train with it before jumping into a tournament setting. I think the book is a solid triple, and if the internal balance (particularly with the new units) was better it'd be a home run.

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by swarmofseals

[Enoby]

2 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

@Enoby Figuring out what characters to include is really hard. Really really hard. Aside from Archaon builds (which are their own animal), I see several categories:

• The big guys: Keeper of Secrets, Glutos, Kairos -- I think we can afford to fit two of these in a list but probably not 3. It's really hard to give up the Keeper. In Godseekers he's just the best chassis for Speed Chaser + Enrapturing Circlet, and in Invaders you really want one for the CA (although you can perhaps summon in one for this purpose). Glutos brings a lot to the table but no one thing that he does is particularly essential.
• The medium guys: Bladebringer on Exalted, Contorted Epitome, Syll'Esske, Be'lakor -- Bladebringer could be a poor man's keeper in Godseekers, I guess. Epitome have good speed and a small enough base that they can be a real help with summoning and add a lot of good magic and anti-magic. Overwhelming Acquiescence should be great. Syll'Esske is meh but the command ability is really good for MSU slickblade builds. Be'lakor is Be'lakor -- doesn't specifically further our plan much, but is such a powerful piece in some matchups.
• The little guys: Chaos Sorcerer Lord, Shardspeaker, The Masque - CSL is only for builds that take at least one large StD unit, of course. Shardspeaker is a nice support piece. The Masque is interesting as a very fast hero on a small base that is pretty resilient. They can zip through the enemy line and summon someplace difficult for the opponent to deal with. I think builds that don't start with a Keeper probably want to start with the Masque.

I don't think that we can afford to overspend on characters. The primary weakness of the faction is going to be getting overloaded before we get a chance to start summoning, and the less defensive efficiency we have on the table at the start the more vulnerable we will be to this. That's why I don't think we can realistically spend like 1000+ points on leaders except for Archaon builds.

I need to try out some Keeper + Glutos and Keeper + Contorted Epitome builds as well as some Keeperless builds. Godseekers seems so clutch for the improved ability to charge off the summon, but maybe that can be compensated with by using cogs. Glutos plus cogs is a spicy meatball. Start with the defense mode, and then when you start summoning you speed up time to get your summons in easily. I could see an Invaders build that starts with Glutos, Contorted Epitome and a third hero and aims to summon a Keeper as the first summon being really good.

The more I theorize and play with this book the more that I think it's a solid A-tier factions with multiple competitive approaches. I think it's going to be a more difficult faction to play than most, so list performance in tournaments is probably going to depend a lot on who is playing the army. I suspect players who aren't already quite good will fare badly with the army if they don't bother to train with it before jumping into a tournament setting. I think the book is a solid triple, and if the internal balance (particularly with the new units) was better it'd be a home run.

 

This is all really helpful  I've seen a lot of people change their opinions on this book when they've played it more on more, thinking at first it was really plain and boring and then seeing that the detail comes into the gameplay itself. There's a lot that doesn't stand out on the warscroll but stands out when actually played it; I think the opinion of the book will improve over time as people play it and find new ways to put the units into action.

I'm really looking forward to playing it and I'm glad it's not a book that we can solve. Even after a week of looking at warscrolls we still can't figure out what's a 'must take' or what's not worth it (besides Slaangors).  

[Malakithe]

Battletome is out on the app now

[Sorrow]

Beautiful artwork and some quite interesting lore in our new battletome. Enjoy it, my fellow Hedonites!

Managed to get two games yesterday.  Played against FEC and Sylvaneth.  Won both.  The combination around Glutos/Sigvald/KoS and Seekers and Blissbarbs is very good.

I am supposed to play against LRL and Gloomspite today. I really wish to try Nobles of Excess list, any suggestions?

[Malakithe]

Depraved Carnival looks like it could be like the old Kunnin Rukk. Thats a lot of shots

[umpac]

5 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Depraved Carnival looks like it could be like the old Kunnin Rukk. Thats a lot of shots

450 pts character tax though. Its like 1090 minimum or something, close to 1400 with 10-10-30 archers. Compared to other shooting factions it's pretty pathetic shooting for those points and it's made of glass. Haven't tried it though so maybe summoning can make up for the shortcomings but there are a few armies like KO or Tzeentch that will just delete all your shooting turn 1. 

 

Nobles are the only new bat I like, but I'm not sold on the twinsouls or painbringers yet.

[Malakithe]

3 minutes ago, umpac said:

450 pts character tax though. Its like 1090 minimum or something, close to 1400 with 10-10-30 archers. Compared to other shooting factions it's pretty pathetic shooting for those points and it's made of glass. Haven't tried it though so maybe summoning can make up for the shortcomings but there are a few armies like KO or Tzeentch that will just delete all your shooting turn 1. 

 

Nobles are the only new bat I like, but I'm not sold on the twinsouls or painbringers yet.

When you look at all the battalions their costs are high with all the minimum units needed. Nobles is fairly high as well at 450 for 3x5 Painbringers at the lowest. I dont see the characters as a tax since youll need them anyway

[Trav]

1 hour ago, Sorrow said:

Beautiful artwork and some quite interesting lore in our new battletome. Enjoy it, my fellow Hedonites!

Managed to get two games yesterday.  Played against FEC and Sylvaneth.  Won both.  The combination around Glutos/Sigvald/KoS and Seekers and Blissbarbs is very good.

I am supposed to play against LRL and Gloomspite today. I really wish to try Nobles of Excess list, any suggestions?

What was your list? What units were good/not great? I am going to build a nobles of excess batallion of painbringers as they look cool but it might suck.

[umpac]

41 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

When you look at all the battalions their costs are high with all the minimum units needed. Nobles is fairly high as well at 450 for 3x5 Painbringers at the lowest. I dont see the characters as a tax since youll need them anyway

Yeah they new ones are all expensive. I don't see how you would "need" the characters anyway. 150 pts is very expensive for what they do, and I definitely don't see myself taking doubles of any of them if I don't have to. The Lord of Pain also has 0 synergy with the rest of the battalion. I could be wrong of course, but I rather take 40 extra archers (or 30+speaker) than the battalion with heroes if I was going for a shooty army.

[Sorrow]

38 minutes ago, Trav said:

What was your list? What units were good/not great? I am going to build a nobles of excess batallion of painbringers as they look cool but it might suck.

The list is courtesy of @Enoby It is excellent in my opinion. 

Invaders Lurid Haze

Glutos (400pts)

Syll'Esske (200pts) - general

Lord of Pain

11 Blissbarb Archers (160pts)

11 Blissbarb Archers (160pts)

11 Blissbarb Archers (160pts) 

5 Slickglaive Seekers (200pts)

5 Slickglaive Seekers (200pts)

5 Slickglaive Seekers (200pts)

Seeker Cavalcade (160pts) 

[Sorrow]

16 minutes ago, umpac said:

Yeah they new ones are all expensive. I don't see how you would "need" the characters anyway. 150 pts is very expensive for what they do, and I definitely don't see myself taking doubles of any of them if I don't have to. The Lord of Pain also has 0 synergy with the rest of the battalion. I could be wrong of course, but I rather take 40 extra archers (or 30+speaker) than the battalion with heroes if I was going for a shooty army.

I want to try out Symbaresh and Myrmidesh in Nobles of Excess, but with fact that I will be going against Lumineth and Gloomspite, I think I should play the list I played against FEC and Sylvaneth.

 

[Trav]

16 minutes ago, Sorrow said:

The list is courtesy of @Enoby It is excellent in my opinion. 

Invaders Lurid Haze

Glutos (400pts)

Syll'Esske (200pts) - general

Lord of Pain

11 Blissbarb Archers (160pts)

11 Blissbarb Archers (160pts)

11 Blissbarb Archers (160pts) 

5 Slickglaive Seekers (200pts)

5 Slickglaive Seekers (200pts)

5 Slickglaive Seekers (200pts)

Seeker Cavalcade (160pts) 

Cool! How did u find the seeker batallion? Did the archers help much with depravity? Also, what you think of glutos?

[Sorrow]

6 minutes ago, Trav said:

Cool! How did u find the seeker batallion? Did the archers help much with depravity? Also, what you think of glutos?

I will copy-paste my previous post.

Quote

I managed to get some test games with our new rules. Played against Tzeentch, OBR and Skaven. Lost against Tzeentch and OBR, won against Skaven. Stole a few list ideas from you guys, my thanks to @Enoby  @swarmofseals.  That being said,  I did made mistakes during deployment against OBR, things could have gone a bit differently if I did not mess that up.

Overall, my concerns have been somewhat mitigated, we are solid mid-tier army.  The new Hedonites play very much into strategic trapping and pinning down targets and denying your opponents chance to engage you unless conditions favor us greatly.  Control of table is crucial.

Glutos is excellent, no issues there.  Worth every point.

Sigvald is better than Light of Eltharion, he is a amazing beatstick well worth his cost. He is slow and has no meaningful synergy with the rest of army.

LoP, Shardspeaker and Syll'Esske are all worth their cost. More than pleased.

Blissbarb Archers, Blissbarb Seekers and Slickblades Seekers are great. Position Seekers properly in Lurid Haze and they are great.

Sadly, the units that appeal to me greatly, Myrmidesh and Symbaresh are really not that good.  Their overall stats are simply not worth the cost. 

Slaangors are a joke.

 

[LeonBox]

1 hour ago, Sorrow said:

The list is courtesy of @Enoby It is excellent in my opinion. 

Invaders Lurid Haze

Glutos (400pts)

Syll'Esske (200pts) - general

Lord of Pain

11 Blissbarb Archers (160pts)

11 Blissbarb Archers (160pts)

11 Blissbarb Archers (160pts) 

5 Slickglaive Seekers (200pts)

5 Slickglaive Seekers (200pts)

5 Slickglaive Seekers (200pts)

Seeker Cavalcade (160pts) 

Who were your priority ambush picks, and who did you have ambush if you only got 1 of the d3 units? 

[Enoby]

Can't wait to start painting and playing! (Ignore my Wotsit carpet) 

[Golub87]

I am thinking about trying out a list build around Glutos and Fiends.

What is everyone's opinion on that combination? Is 6 Fiends enough or should I aim for 9? Shardspeaker and Geminids look good in combination with them as well.

Glutos, Speaker, 6 Fiends and Geminids come out to 1070pts.

How would you round out that list? How would you play it?

[umpac]

1 hour ago, Golub87 said:

What is everyone's opinion on that combination? Is 6 Fiends enough or should I aim for 9? Shardspeaker and Geminids look good in combination with them as well.

9 is a little all in. Fiends with -2/-2 is terrifying in melee but they are paper vs shooting and magic. Depends on whether you want an all comers list or not. 

 

As for the rest of the points a keeper for piling in twice is never wrong. For battleline you could add blissbarbs for some DP generation and decent objective campers or daemonettes if you're tight on points. Maybe some slickblades if you got points left, they're great. 

[Enoby]

2 hours ago, Golub87 said:

I am thinking about trying out a list build around Glutos and Fiends.

What is everyone's opinion on that combination? Is 6 Fiends enough or should I aim for 9? Shardspeaker and Geminids look good in combination with them as well.

Glutos, Speaker, 6 Fiends and Geminids come out to 1070pts.

How would you round out that list? How would you play it?

I agree with @umpachere that 9 would be too much - but I reckon that 6 will do very well against any melee focused army. 

In addition to these, I think you need some more board control just so you're not stuck with one big deathstar and no extras for capturing. I think marauders would be good for this, but if you don't want to use them, some chaos warriors could work for cheap battleline. Alternatively, a LoP and some painbringers/twin souls for your battle line can objective camp well enough. I think Slickblades can find a place in every list, especially for harassing people. 

A KoS could work  well but there's the worry you'd be sinking too many points into heroes and not enough into board control. 

[Enoby]

Also, little bit extra, but Painbringers are pretty posable from building a few of them - their arms can be posed where you want them, and while they do have pins for their necks and waists, you can chop them off and pose them however you want 

[Golub87]

36 minutes ago, umpac said:

9 is a little all in. Fiends with -2/-2 is terrifying in melee but they are paper vs shooting and magic. Depends on whether you want an all comers list or not. 

 

As for the rest of the points a keeper for piling in twice is never wrong. For battleline you could add blissbarbs for some DP generation and decent objective campers or daemonettes if you're tight on points. Maybe some slickblades if you got points left, they're great.

Yeah, I am a bit suspicious of deathstars too. Ranged armies are the biggest of my worries atm as I do not see an effective way to fight them. I have been thinking about plain old Seekers to be honest. They do not have impressive attacks, but they have greater threat range than most shooters (14" move + 2d6 run + RR charge). They will not kill much and will die, but they can tie up a shooting unit for a turn or two until we get other pieces in position to threaten them.

16 minutes ago, Enoby said:

I agree with @umpachere that 9 would be too much - but I reckon that 6 will do very well against any melee focused army. 

In addition to these, I think you need some more board control just so you're not stuck with one big deathstar and no extras for capturing. I think marauders would be good for this, but if you don't want to use them, some chaos warriors could work for cheap battleline. Alternatively, a LoP and some painbringers/twin souls for your battle line can objective camp well enough. I think Slickblades can find a place in every list, especially for harassing people. 

A KoS could work  well but there's the worry you'd be sinking too many points into heroes and not enough into board control. 

KoS is good, but as you said I would rather have board presence and summon in. Plus, I have seen enough KoS on the table, I can do without for a while

Marauders are fine with me, so are CW.

I will be playing a very casual test game vs CoS demigriff list tomorrow morning. I will definitely go as a Lurid Haze host. Outflank target likely being the Marauders.

So far I am pretty set on my first 1600 pts

Glutos  400
Shardspeaker (General, Artifact)       150
6 Fiends            360
5 Seekers             150
11 Blisbarb Archers    160
11 Blisbarb Archers    160
20 Marauders            160
Geminids of Uyi-Gish    60

Remaining 400 could either be:

The Masque              130
Syll'eske            200
Umbral Spellportal    70

or

5 Slickblade Seekers    200
5 Slickblade Seekers    200

 

I'll see if I can post the results and impressions once the game is over.

 

[swarmofseals]

@Golub87 if those are fixed as your options I'd take the slickblades for sure.

[Golub87]

1 hour ago, swarmofseals said:

@Golub87 if those are fixed as your options I'd take the slickblades for sure.

Yeah, that is pretty much how I will run it.

[Slave2Chaos]

I’ve got 10 hellstriders that I’ve been waiting for the new book to drop before I assembled them.

Im rather underwhelmed, but I think whips may be the better choice. It’s a shame that their ability only triggers on the charge or I could see potential in the seeker cavalcade with slick blades as battleline.

do you see potential in them at all? If so how would you build/run them?

[Carnith]

So I got archers and slickblades... the riders are annoying to assemble, and I had a huge gap in the shoulder pad of my archer leader. 

Edited February 21, 2021 by Carnith

[Silphid]

Assembled archers today; one of the worst kit I’ve even done (and  I built them most of them). Half an arm, a third of a head joined with an ankle; you have to insert in, rotate the piece and hold, hoping it didnt stick before you find it’s place. Some arms are so tiny that getting them to hold it the intended position is extremely difficult. Since the micro details are cranked to 11 you end up with mold lines in ackward places. The worst is mold injection points that covers details, such aS hair. When you cut it off, you would have to manually re-sculpt tiny hair lines to keep the original intended texture.

 

the past t years of kits has been stellar, this seems like it was cut for sprues by amateurs. Also, zero customization in poses. Of course you can cut and resculpt joints, but the kit itself will always produce the same 11 models save the leader which has alternate face and hand weapon (but exact same pose).

 

Beautiful  (and tiny! 28mm bases) but what an unpleasant experience to build. Hoping seekers were better planned.