AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[Lord Krungharr]

4 hours ago, W1tchhunter said:

I was under the wide eyed hopeful bunch when we only got one model for our battletome that GW  was holding off updating the armies like skaven beasts and seraphon till the old world. 

But with seraphon getting a massive refresh with there new book I've decided GW just hate skaven and BOC

BOOOOOOOO!!!!!  Seraphon will NERFED, at least a little bit.  On the other claw, WE got deepstriking masses of 60 rats loaded with sneaky machine guns:

Clawlord (tunnel master, warpstone charm)

ArchWarlock (nightflyer cloak)

Plague Priest

2x60 Clanrats

1x20 Clanrats

12 Ratling Guns

2 Warp Grinders

Doomflayer

Vermintide

2000 pts......201 wounds.  KA-POW!

Edited January 28, 2023 by Lord Krungharr

[Skreech Verminking]

On 1/28/2023 at 5:52 PM, Lord Krungharr said:

BOOOOOOOO!!!!!  Seraphon will NERFED, at least a little bit.  On the other claw, WE got deepstriking masses of 60 rats loaded with sneaky machine guns:

Clawlord (tunnel master, warpstone charm)

ArchWarlock (nightflyer cloak)

Plague Priest

2x60 Clanrats

1x20 Clanrats

12 Ratling Guns

2 Warp Grinders

Doomflayer

Vermintide

2000 pts......201 wounds.  KA-POW!

Firstly I love that list, secondly I was able to get a read on the new ghb, I know I’m a bit laid but I wasn’t interested to read through some badly done potato cam shots, when I could get a better view over the official rule, although it didn’t really matter too much as I was unable to secure one ghb in my preferred language, so I’m still waiting for its arrival.

Non then no less, I still would like to prefer towards one of the combination we skaven players have been chittering with high hopes for stormvermins.

I believe everyvody has heard of the combination with the deathmaster equipped with the artefact that lets him

attack first in the combat phase, while accompanied by a bodyguard unit via the new battailons of stormvermins.

While many of us including myself thought that this could mean the return of stormvermins, as they are great damage dealers, while some consider them even the best damage dealers in the wholesome of aos, I must admit, that I sadly don’t believe that being the case

with the current prize reduction stormvermins are sitting at a 130points of cost.

at 30 they will cost 390points and at a unit size of 20 their cost lies on 260.

now My believe is, that a unit of plague censer bearers is in every way better then the stormvermins we hope to see being played one day.

the reason why I believe that plague censer bearers are the better bodyguard unit for the deathmaster, is because of their raw damage potential.

every mode in this unit does 3attacks hitting and wounding the enemy just like any stormvermin would, and while they do trend to have the same amount of rend, plague censer bearers have a damage characteristic of 2 instead of one.

with the current points plague censer bearers are in a raw damage potential kind of state at every kind of way better then stormvermins.

A unit of 20 stormvermins cost 260points while a unit of 15 plague censer bearers cost 10 points more.

the different yet can be seen at the attacks characteristic as 15 plague censer bearers will throw out 45 attacks if they haven’t charged or 60 attacks if they jave with damage 2 on the enemy.

while 20 stormvermins will be attacking with 41 attacks at damage 1.

What makes 15plague censer bearers of the price for 20stormvermins so interesting though is probably that their damage potential is even more then that of 30stormvermins, while they will be attacking with 60attacks, those attacks are still just one damage.

now you can buff stormvermins up in such a way they could gain another 2 attacks (the new ca or gnash gnaw on their bones and skavenbrew, yet so can the plague censer bearers be buffed as well, but better.

While gnash gnaw on their teeths doesn’t work on pestilence unit we have rabid-rabid, a prayer that does exactly the same thing.

giving them skavenbrew and activating the new ca, allows us to give plague censer bearers 3 extra attacks, so basically every plague censer bearer is now attacking with 7attacks if it made a charge, which allows it to basically deal a 100attacks, and while a unit of 30 stormvermins can put out a 120attacks, we do have to remember that the full raw damage output if everything hits and wounds and not a single save is made would still be just a 120,

while plague censer bearers if everything hits and wounds and no save were successfully made would deal 200damage.

all in all plague censer bearers are just in my opinion in every way better then stormvermins

 

[Skreech Verminking]

On 1/28/2023 at 12:37 PM, Riff_Raff_Rascal said:

Why do stormfiends have the same save as rat ogres? same wounds to boot? They are literally wearing power armor. Ugh. Make them cheaper, if they're afraid of MMMWP making them OP, just make them unable to be reinforced.

I need independent operators that don't need no man. 

I should also mention to my last point ,

personally I don’t mind if they get reinforced, but something I’m really missing with stormfiends is the risk factor.

if we lowered their points by a bit and added in a rule, where every unmodified hit role of 1 would hit the nearest friendly unit withing range that isn’t this unit of stormfiends, I think the unit in total would not only fee more skaveny, but would also make them a bit more risky to play when having your heroes to near.

Edit: as for rat ogres, personally Gw did a terrible job.

and I really do not think that rat ogres are in need of being this unit that is basically what stormfiends are just worser.

I really believe that the idea of the mutation table for rat ogre was a great idea, this is probably something they should have sticked to, adding in the mutations either through the allegiance abilities or making it some sort of an ability that is given to them on their warscrolls.

Personally I am currently working on some add on content to my fan made skaven faq.

In which I am including mutations for giant rats and rat ogres, and changing the moulder allegiance abilities a bit up, as I personally don’t like the rule of three they made, at least not the way they made it.

it should be different 

Edited January 31, 2023 by Skreech Verminking

[GunslingerOy]

Hello, advice on the below? This is the core of what I want to bring. Trying to figure out how to spend my last 250 odd points. Was thinking Grey Seer and 20 more clan rats. I could also see units of night runners to take up some board space along with some giant rats, or more special weapons. I have enough time to basically paint up another unit of anythin, and I own pretty much 1 of everything to paint. Basic idea is to double death frenzy the rat ogres in, get them killed and try it again while the warbringer and his crew move up. Unit of clan rats dropping in front with the warpfire thrower trying to clear out some single wound models.

 - Army Faction: Skaven
     - Grand Strategy: No Place for the Weak
     - Triumph: Indomitable
LEADERS
Grey Seer (120)
Master Moulder (90)*
     - Warpstone-tipped Lash
Grey Seer (120)*
     - Spells: Death Frenzy, Skitterleap
     - Aspects of the Champion:  Alpha leadership thing.
Verminlord Warbringer (400)*
     - General
     - Command Traits: Devious Adversary
     - Artefacts of Power: Warpstone Charm
     - Spells: Flaming Weapon
BATTLELINE
Rat Ogors (280)
Stormvermin (390)
Clanrats (100)
     - Rusty Blade
Clanrats (100)
     - Rusty Blade
OTHER
Warp-Grinder (60)
Warpfire Thrower (70)
CORE BATTALIONS
*Command Entourage
     - Magnificent

TOTAL POINTS: 1730/2000
Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App

 

[Lord Krungharr]

5 minutes ago, GunslingerOy said:

Hello, advice on the below? This is the core of what I want to bring. Trying to figure out how to spend my last 250 odd points. Was thinking Grey Seer and 20 more clan rats. I could also see units of night runners to take up some board space along with some giant rats, or more special weapons. I have enough time to basically paint up another unit of anythin, and I own pretty much 1 of everything to paint. Basic idea is to double death frenzy the rat ogres in, get them killed and try it again while the warbringer and his crew move up. Unit of clan rats dropping in front with the warpfire thrower trying to clear out some single wound models.

 - Army Faction: Skaven
     - Grand Strategy: No Place for the Weak
     - Triumph: Indomitable
LEADERS
Grey Seer (120)
Master Moulder (90)*
     - Warpstone-tipped Lash
Grey Seer (120)*
     - Spells: Death Frenzy, Skitterleap
     - Aspects of the Champion:  Alpha leadership thing.
Verminlord Warbringer (400)*
     - General
     - Command Traits: Devious Adversary
     - Artefacts of Power: Warpstone Charm
     - Spells: Flaming Weapon
BATTLELINE
Rat Ogors (280)
Stormvermin (390)
Clanrats (100)
     - Rusty Blade
Clanrats (100)
     - Rusty Blade
OTHER
Warp-Grinder (60)
Warpfire Thrower (70)
CORE BATTALIONS
*Command Entourage
     - Magnificent

TOTAL POINTS: 1730/2000
Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App

 

I think you have a sound plan-scheme there, and I agree another Grey Seer would be very good to have...And I might recommend a Warlock Engineer for the Warp-spark action on the Stormfiends, though another 20 Clanrats wouldn't hurt either.

@Skreech VerminkingI totally want to try the Plague Censers with the Deathmaster.  I feel it would be good to have with a 1 or 2 drop army so they could get into either safe or ready to strike position early on since they'll be a juicy target....which means one would need a few other things to throw into the enemy's face right off the bat.  So perhaps something like:

Verminlord Deceiver (Flaming Weapon spell)-Hopefully Dreaded Skitterleaping

Deathmaster (Shadow Magnet Trinket)

Arch Warlock (Tunnel Master enhancement so we don't need a 2nd artefact)

3 Plague Priests (try to get the big Plagues off)

15 Gutter Runners- deepstrike threat

15 Plague Censer Bearers-to hide the Deathmaster and receive prayers from the Plague Priests

20 Clanrats-for tunneling and hiding weapon teams

Warp Grinder-for the Clanrats

2 Ratling Guns-hide in the Clanrats

Vemintide-cuz it's annoying

2000 on the dot.  Will it be able to hang in there?  Probably not.  The Ratling Guns could be traded for Warpfire Throwers and get rid of Vermintide.  These days that might actually pay off only because to run with Galletian Champs ppl usually want to run some littler models in bigger groups to get the Bodyguard thing going.  OR I'd trade them out for Acolytes, but the lack of reinforcment points makes them have to be MSU (we're not Daughters of Khaine afterall 🙄 ).

[Skreech Verminking]

13 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I think you have a sound plan-scheme there, and I agree another Grey Seer would be very good to have...And I might recommend a Warlock Engineer for the Warp-spark action on the Stormfiends, though another 20 Clanrats wouldn't hurt either.

@Skreech VerminkingI totally want to try the Plague Censers with the Deathmaster.  I feel it would be good to have with a 1 or 2 drop army so they could get into either safe or ready to strike position early on since they'll be a juicy target....which means one would need a few other things to throw into the enemy's face right off the bat.  So perhaps something like:

Verminlord Deceiver (Flaming Weapon spell)-Hopefully Dreaded Skitterleaping

Deathmaster (Shadow Magnet Trinket)

Arch Warlock (Tunnel Master enhancement so we don't need a 2nd artefact)

3 Plague Priests (try to get the big Plagues off)

15 Gutter Runners- deepstrike threat

15 Plague Censer Bearers-to hide the Deathmaster and receive prayers from the Plague Priests

20 Clanrats-for tunneling and hiding weapon teams

Warp Grinder-for the Clanrats

2 Ratling Guns-hide in the Clanrats

Vemintide-cuz it's annoying

2000 on the dot.  Will it be able to hang in there?  Probably not.  The Ratling Guns could be traded for Warpfire Throwers and get rid of Vermintide.  These days that might actually pay off only because to run with Galletian Champs ppl usually want to run some littler models in bigger groups to get the Bodyguard thing going.  OR I'd trade them out for Acolytes, but the lack of reinforcment points makes them have to be MSU (we're not Daughters of Khaine afterall 🙄 ).

Vermintide is a bad spell anyways.

I would probably just ignore it.

as for the ratting guns.

no you should definitely not trade them for a different unit,

in fact you should take more of them.

trade something else for more rattling gun weapon teams.

and no matter how bad the rules are always overcharge it.

against a friend or a beginner in a friendly game, if he asks you what it does, you can tell him that it dies when after it shot.

against a tournament player or at a tournament, that rattling gun weapon team won’t die as it is written in the rule set.

 

[W1tchhunter]

Listening to the Gitz rules reveal and just sat here confused why Gitz and Dok get 4 up rallys and we don't

[Skreech Verminking]

12 minutes ago, W1tchhunter said:

Listening to the Gitz rules reveal and just sat here confused why Gitz and Dok get 4 up rallys and we don't

Because we are am elite guru faction now.

 

[fishwaffle2232]

On 2/1/2023 at 7:48 PM, Skreech Verminking said:

against a tournament player or at a tournament, that rattling gun weapon team won’t die as it is written in the rule set.

Or don't intentionally play the rules wrong and instead, respect your opponent regardless of whether or not they are a "tournament player".  You have a lot of good takes in this forum, but your interpretation on the overcharge rule, is rules lawyering at best and at worst it is outright cheating. A double is two dice that have the same result, if there are any two dice which share a result when you roll 4 dice, that is a double and the ratling guns are dead. I don't think you should be encouraging people to use shady tactics, especially when a lot of new players come to this forum for advice and to learn about how to play skaven. 

By all means, run a stack of ratling guns, but play them the way they are meant to be played not how you want them to be played. 

 

Edited February 2, 2023 by fishwaffle2232

[Skreech Verminking]

15 hours ago, fishwaffle2232 said:

Or don't intentionally play the rules wrong and instead, respect your opponent regardless of whether or not they are a "tournament player".  You have a lot of good takes in this forum, but your interpretation on the overcharge rule, is rules lawyering at best and at worst it is outright cheating. A double is two dice that have the same result, if there are any two dice which share a result when you roll 4 dice, that is a double and the ratling guns are dead. I don't think you should be encouraging people to use shady tactics, especially when a lot of new players come to this forum for advice and to learn about how to play skaven. 

By all means, run a stack of ratling guns, but play them the way they are meant to be played not how you want them to be played. 

 

Playing the rules wrong?

 

interpreting the overcharge rule wrongly?

 

I’m a bit confused, if I may admit.

 

while I do agree that the many mentioned rules are very likely meant to be played different, I do have say the following thing:

 

tournaments I have attended at and the grand tournaments I have heard of all follow the rules as written.

 

and it doesn‘t matter if the rules were probably meant to be played different.

 

before I am going to go deeper into the reason why a rattling gun weapon team won’t explode and why I consider this a legit exploid that works as it is written, 

 

I would like to give some mention to the rules I wasn’t allowed to use explicitly in tournaments I partook in.

 

-the redmaw plague:

 

I think many of us have probably heard of the dilemma that the redmaw plague brings with it.

 

while we all believe that it was meant to give you the chance to attack with a enemy hero in range of his own unit, shortly put, this isn’t the case when you play it “as written” and that is not something I came up with this, this is something multiple tournament organizers told me.

 

so while the ability allows you to treat the plagued enemy hero in the combat phase if all condition are met, as a friendly model.

 

now we all think that it was meant to work in such a way that hero can attack the problem, just is, nowhere does it state that it becomes an enemy model for its own army.

 

since that is the case we can’t really do much, as it would need to be within combat range to be activated in the herophase, so the redmaw as the rules are written does nothing.

 

another example I have would be the mighty warlord battle trait clan verminus, or specifically clawlords get when taken into an army.

The problem I’m currently facing is the fact that the ability does say that the claword can take an eligible command trait.

Yet here are two problems I’m facing.

The rules for command trait (27.32 command traits) do state that a ca can only be given to a general.

 

And the other problem I’m facing is that every command trait that can be taken for a clawlord currently, do always mention this general, that general and so on.

 

So unless your clawlord is the general he isn’t eligible to take a ca.

While the ability does take precedence over core rule, that ability does not state that anything chances.

Since our clawlord doesn’t count as a general for the purpose of taking or gaining this trait he is not eligible to take a ca with this heroic action.

 

And all of these rules I was forced to use as I just stated for the purpose of rules as written, as the tournament organizers of those events I partook in did not allow me to use the rules as interpreted.

And since that is the case let us have a look at the rattling gun weapon team exploid.

 

So while I do agree that a double as described in a duden is the result of any 2dice having the same number, this isn’t the case as is describe in the rules at 1.5.2 dice.

 

In this part of the rules it states: “A double is the result of a 2d6 roll”.

 

It isn’t of any two dice but that  of a 2d6 roll.

 

While I do agree that a 4d6 roll has about twice the amount of dice as a 2d6 roll, a roll that use more dice then a roll that uses a less amount of dice, are not the same thing.

They are in fact different groups of rolls.

 

Considering that let us have a look at the rattling gun more more more warplead rule.

 

So it basically says that I have to make a 4d6 roll to determine the number with which I add another 3 to that result.

If I roll any doubles it dies after shooting.

 

So here is the problem I’m facing .

The writer of this book clearly wanted the rattling gun weapon team to have a bad example for a skaven function, (but that is a different discussion) 

But he stopped with that, wrote nothing of what a double is in this case and well here we are with the discussion.

 

While the ability does take precedence over core rules and thus can rewrite certain rules with their own, that doesn’t really work when certain mechanics or wordings do not get changed via the ability.

 

Since the ability doesn’t specifically state that the double can be the result of that 4d6 dice roll, nothing changes, and since nothing gets changed the core rules are still being used to clarify that double.

 

Now as often as I say that the rattling gun can’t die via an explosion, this is kinda wrong, as the correct way of answering that would be the following.

The rattling gun overcharges, makes a 4d6 roll and explode and die on any doubles.

Since a double is the result of a 2d6 dice roll and not that of a 4d6 it will never get a double thus the chances of it dying from a double are 0 percent.

 

If you still think I’m interpreting this wrong, let me give you another example, and example that has seen a good amount of tables, the doomwheel express.

 

So the doomwheels rule for rolling doom, states that this model counts as if it could fly against models with 3 or less wounds.

 

In addition does d3 mortal wounds to unit on a roll of 2+, when it moves over models or ends withing 1 inch of those models from that unit., in addition

 

When the writer wrote that ability We are all pretty certain that his intention was to stop the doomwheel from doing mortal wounds via a move over models with more then 3 wounds.

 

Yet the combination with a doomwheel and levitate basically changes that.

You might ask me why but the reasoning is pretty simple, you see the mortal wound it does doesn’t specifically say that it only works on models with 3 or less wounds but instead just always does it against pretty much anything.

What keeps it in check is an extra rule that allows the doomwheel to count as it could fly but only against models with 3 or less wounds, allowing it to move over those models,

So what if we actually give the flying rule to a doomwheel?

Well it now flies.

It flies over any kind of models unit or whatever else exist, and thus it is able to deal mortal wounds to models with more then 3 wounds with a movement over those unit.

 

So why exactly am I mentioning this?

Well if you think about it, it states nowhere in the more more more warplead rule that the double explicitly works on that dice roll.

No in fact it is just an added rule to that ability.

 

 

My Conclusion:

I personally don’t think it is cheating, trying to use something that helps you play the game.

I wouldn’t consider myself as discourteous if I am partaking at a game where the rules as written are used over the rules as intended or interpreted, which is the case with so many tournaments, not all but many.

I am after all still respecting the person in front of me.

Having a different opinion or not agreeing with everything a person states, doesn’t mean that a person can not  respect another.

 

And while yes these are kinda shady, I wouldn’t consider it more or less shady then the doomwheel exploid, the new deathmaster and his bodyguard attack first in the combat phase exploit, when using the heroic action to attack in the hero-phase, especially not when playing at a tournament.

Using a shady tactic doesn’t mean your a bad guy or aren’t respecting your opponent, it just mean that you’re using an exploit, and many people are in a tournament.

Using an exploit doesn’t mean that you’re cheating, more then likely said that rules are being used in a way that the writers couldn’t.

There is a reason why we get an faq pretty often.

Without those shady tactics being used, we wouldn’t have the need for an faq, and personally if somebody really likes to go to a tournament that uses the rules as is written, then yes I would encourage them, so long as they are respectful towards their opponents or any other people they meet with this strategy.

although the people reading this, please don’t use it in a friendly game.

use the rules defintion of rai (rules as interpreted) instead of raw (rules as written)

in such cases 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Skreech Verminking

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

@Skreech Verminking Well said. Kudos for the long post. I feel that. 

This is reminding me I had a brain mishap my last game and didn't even shoot my ratlings right, reverting to the 2.0 book rules. Thats what I get for going off of memory. I still forget that Acolytes are on +3/+3s now. All of our damage is like flat 2 instead of D3. It still gets me every so often. Been playing rats for too long its all blurring together. 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Riff_Raff_Rascal

[Skreech Verminking]

2 minutes ago, Riff_Raff_Rascal said:

@Skreech Verminking Well said. Kudos for the long post. I feel that. 

This is reminding me I had a brain ****** my last game and didn't even shoot my ratlings right, reverting to the 2.0 book rules. Thats what I get for going off of memory. I still forget that Acolytes are on +3/+3s now. All of our damage is like flat 2 instead of D3. It still gets me every so often. Been playing rats for too long its all blurring together. 

It happens to the best of us.

in my last game I took the new mirror shield as an artefact, and totally forgot that I had that 

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

@Skreech Verminking You know I'm just gonna play my next game with no season rules and no battle tactics. I'd like a palette cleanser.

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

Speaking of gaming the system, have we discussed the 'Quivering Bulk' mutation for the HPA? This would put it on a 1+ for each model in range, thus auto-proc'ing MWs. That sounds busted//unintended against anything with 1 wound. 

I scoured the FAQ's and Core Rules and the only time a 1 auto fails is on an attack/wound/save roll, which this does not qualify. Whats weird,  in a similar fashion, the WLC proc's its ability roll on a 1+ too (assuming that you rolled the power setting that low) for MW's, so our book already sets a precedent for it. 

Its not the best mutation but its a thing. 

[Lord Krungharr]

I mean, with the WLC, all the undmodified 1s, even though they still do MW to the enemy, will cause the WLC to suffer D3 MW per 1....always worth it though!

[fishwaffle2232]

10 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Using a shady tactic doesn’t mean your a bad guy or aren’t respecting your opponent, it just mean that you’re using an exploit, and many people are in a tournament.

Whilst I appreciate the time taken to write the long response. To me this only furthers my point about rules lawyering. It is so obvious how the rule works by reading the ratling gun warscroll and using a technicality from the core rules to completley void the rule is a bit ridiculous. I still don't believe any decent tournament organiser would not allow this. 

As far as I'm concerned, if someone is intentionally using an exploit to get an advantage in a game of toy soldiers, they are also intentionally doing something that has the potential to ruin their opponents enjoyment of the game. Whether you are playing in a tournament or playing a game with a mate in your garage, enjoyment is what this hobby is about. 

So whilst understand your logic  behind the rule, I'm not arguing that the rule wasn't poorly written, I still think it is wrong to play it the way you are encouraging others to play it. It's a shame that people feel the need to win at the cost of being a good sport. I want to play the way I want other to play against me. 

I'm from Australia and such rules lawyering would not get very far in the tournament setting. A lot of players go to tournaments to try and win it, but most go to enjoy a few games of warhammer.

Again I appreciate the long response. I just want to express my opinion on the matter, so that others may make a decision  about the type of player they want to be. 

 

[Skreech Verminking]

8 hours ago, fishwaffle2232 said:

Whilst I appreciate the time taken to write the long response. To me this only furthers my point about rules lawyering. It is so obvious how the rule works by reading the ratling gun warscroll and using a technicality from the core rules to completley void the rule is a bit ridiculous. I still don't believe any decent tournament organiser would not allow this. 

As far as I'm concerned, if someone is intentionally using an exploit to get an advantage in a game of toy soldiers, they are also intentionally doing something that has the potential to ruin their opponents enjoyment of the game. Whether you are playing in a tournament or playing a game with a mate in your garage, enjoyment is what this hobby is about. 

So whilst understand your logic  behind the rule, I'm not arguing that the rule wasn't poorly written, I still think it is wrong to play it the way you are encouraging others to play it. It's a shame that people feel the need to win at the cost of being a good sport. I want to play the way I want other to play against me. 

I'm from Australia and such rules lawyering would not get very far in the tournament setting. A lot of players go to tournaments to try and win it, but most go to enjoy a few games of warhammer.

Again I appreciate the long response. I just want to express my opinion on the matter, so that others may make a decision  about the type of player they want to be. 

 

Many things are obviously written yet not used or not allowed to use by some tournament organizers as rules as written it doesn’t work.

since we are at that point I am very curious to k ow since I’ve never been to Australia, and have never partaken at a tournament in that country.

how well are you allowed to use the rules for the redmaw plague, mighty warlord faction ability.

are you allowed to use the redmaw plague in such a way that it can be used to pick a enemy hero that can thus attack ine of his own units that is within 3 inches of him?

same question for the mighty warlrod trait.

are you allowed to pick any command trait and use it, even if the model wouldn’t be eligible to do so as it isn’t the general of your army, as described in the core rules?

another question would be about the flying doomwheel.

casting levitate on the doomwheel, are you allowed in Australia to use the spell to basically do mortal wounds to units with more then 3 wounds when moving over them, even though this was very likely never the intention?

I am quit interested in hearing your answer, as in the place I am currently living, I am not allowed to use those rules as they are interpreted or  obviously intended to be played.

Only rules as written is allowed in the greater tournaments in my area.

So I wasn’t able to use those rules as interpreted or obviously intended, as you would describe it at all. As I was told by the tournament organizers 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Skreech Verminking

[fishwaffle2232]

I haven't had to use redmaw, so it didn't come up, but the people who were running ratling guns definitely ran them the way they are described on the warscroll. 

As for clawlord, I'm also unsure what others were doing. But if I had to play it, I interpret the verminous rule to mean, you choose any of the command traits that would be available to the clawlord, as if it were the general. This overrules the core rule requirement of it needing to be a general to have a command trait.

As for the doomwheel, I don't think the intent of the rules is as clear as the case for the ratling gun. My understanding of the rule is that, levitate would allow it to get the mortal wounds, because it has passed over a unit, which means it has met the requirement of rolling doom. It only specifies that you can pass over stuff 3 wounds or less, not that you can't do the mortal wounds. The "in addition", which is the next sentence, specifies what requirements are needed to cause mortals, and as it has passed over something, this meets the requirements. This is certainly something that is quite janky though, and it wouldn't surprise me if this caused an opponent to want clarification of the rule, at which point, I think it would be fair to get a ruling from the TO. I think rules as written, the mortals count, rules as intended is less obvious.

The thing with more-more warplead, is that it is very clear on reading the warscroll, how the rule works. It is only when you start to introduce the whole "well technically it's not a double as specified in the core rule book" thing, which then gets the TO called over, because your opponent will be like "dude come on, that's not how the rule works". Then you are in a situation where the TO either sticks to their rule on "rules as written", if that is how it is in your area, or they rule how it should be ruled, which is that the weapon team blows up on any roll that has two dice showing the same result. In this scenario though, you have cornered the TO into a pretty ****** situation, where it is clear how the rule should be played, but you have used a rules technicality to get an unfair edge with a very cheaply pointed unit, which is pointed that way because of its risk vs reward attributes. 

Now this is where it comes down to the individual player. DO you want to win at all costs, despite the negative experience this COULD create for the TO and the player? Or do you acknowledge that it is poor rules writing and choose to play how it is clearly intended and share a laugh with your opponent when you roll 4 1s on your overcharge, blowing yourself up. Or even better roll 4 6s and laugh, as both your units blow up. 

This is the best part of skryre, in my opinion. You sit back and blast your opponent away, but at the same time you blow yourself up, it takes away the negativity that shooting armies often cause. 

At the end of the day when I think about this hobby, it's about both players having fun. I always try to win, but I would never go so far as what you are suggesting. That's my take on it though, and you might not feel the same way about that. I certainly understand that people take this hobby much more seriously than I do, but given the type of fun lists you like to run, at least the ones you share, and the your mostly good takes on the many fun aspects of the army, it surprises me that you opt for the power play in this scenario and that you encourage others to do so too. 

Edited February 5, 2023 by fishwaffle2232

[Lord Krungharr]

I can't think of anyone in real life who has ever claimed that 2 of the dice being the same number within a 4D6 roll to not be a double.  I get the argument that the 'double' is described as a 2D6 roll in the book; HOWEVER, I view it and believe an equally viable argument is that any 2D6 within the 4D6 is the double, or any 2D6 within a group of multiple D6s that are the same number, is a double.  But if people want to go for it and try to get a favorable ruling, heck yeah, go for it!

The Doomwheel though is very clear IMHO.  If it gets Levitate cast on it (which never went off successfully when I tried it so far 😛 ) then it could pass over any unit it wants cuz it could Fly, and still do MW on a 2+ to each of those units.  If it doesn't get Levitate then it could only pass over models of 3 wounds or less, meaning it probably couldn't do squat vs Ogors except when shooting, charging, and piling in.

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

6 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I can't think of anyone in real life who has ever claimed that 2 of the dice being the same number within a 4D6 roll to not be a double.  I get the argument that the 'double' is described as a 2D6 roll in the book; HOWEVER, I view it and believe an equally viable argument is that any 2D6 within the 4D6 is the double, or any 2D6 within a group of multiple D6s that are the same number, is a double.  But if people want to go for it and try to get a favorable ruling, heck yeah, go for it!

FWIW (which is admittedly not a lot, as GW is not always consistent with templating) there is a mechanic in the new S2D book that is based on rolling a double as you describe it (specifically double 1s on 3d6) that does not use the word "double" at any point. Instead, it says "if the unmodified roll on 2 or more of the dice is 1." So, I could see an argument from that as well.

[fishwaffle2232]

2 hours ago, RocketPropelledGrenade said:

FWIW (which is admittedly not a lot, as GW is not always consistent with templating) there is a mechanic in the new S2D book that is based on rolling a double as you describe it (specifically double 1s on 3d6) that does not use the word "double" at any point. Instead, it says "if the unmodified roll on 2 or more of the dice is 1." So, I could see an argument from that as well.

I wonder if this is because they realise that the wording on doubles in the core book is open to exploit. Either way, it seems like it would be an easy fix, if this is indeed something that people are going to take advantage of. I mean it is stupid that they still get this stuff wrong

[zombiepiratexxx]

All they need to do is to add the change to the Double rule from the Core rules in an errata, it would take seconds to do and fix a lot. 

[DocKeule]

The issue here is: The wording on the Ratling Gun Warscroll is older (i.e. has not been changed with the new battletome) than the edition 3 core rules. 2nd edition core rules never specified what "a double" is. They probably should just cut this one sentence since there would otherwise be no argument on what a double is in a role with more than one dice.

But that's GW. They are just bad a writing rules with no lose ends and don't get me started at lore...

[Skreech Verminking]

On 2/5/2023 at 10:33 AM, fishwaffle2232 said:

1) I haven't had to use redmaw, so it didn't come up, but the people who were running ratling guns definitely ran them the way they are described on the warscroll. 

As for clawlord, I'm also unsure what others were doing. But if I had to play it, I interpret the verminous rule to mean, you choose any of the command traits that would be available to the clawlord, as if it were the general. This overrules the core rule requirement of it needing to be a general to have a command trait.

As for the doomwheel, I don't think the intent of the rules is as clear as the case for the ratling gun. My understanding of the rule is that, levitate would allow it to get the mortal wounds, because it has passed over a unit, which means it has met the requirement of rolling doom. It only specifies that you can pass over stuff 3 wounds or less, not that you can't do the mortal wounds. The "in addition", which is the next sentence, specifies what requirements are needed to cause mortals, and as it has passed over something, this meets the requirements. This is certainly something that is quite janky though, and it wouldn't surprise me if this caused an opponent to want clarification of the rule, at which point, I think it would be fair to get a ruling from the TO. I think rules as written, the mortals count, rules as intended is less obvious.

3)The thing with more-more warplead, is that it is very clear on reading the warscroll, how the rule works. It is only when you start to introduce the whole "well technically it's not a double as specified in the core rule book" thing, which then gets the TO called over, because your opponent will be like "dude come on, that's not how the rule works". Then you are in a situation where the TO either sticks to their rule on "rules as written", if that is how it is in your area, or they rule how it should be ruled, which is that the weapon team blows up on any roll that has two dice showing the same result. In this scenario though, you have cornered the TO into a pretty ****** situation, where it is clear how the rule should be played, but you have used a rules technicality to get an unfair edge with a very cheaply pointed unit, which is pointed that way because of its risk vs reward attributes. 

Now this is where it comes down to the individual player. DO you want to win at all costs, despite the negative experience this COULD create for the TO and the player? Or do you acknowledge that it is poor rules writing and choose to play how it is clearly intended and share a laugh with your opponent when you roll 4 1s on your overcharge, blowing yourself up. Or even better roll 4 6s and laugh, as both your units blow up. 

4)This is the best part of skryre, in my opinion. You sit back and blast your opponent away, but at the same time you blow yourself up, it takes away the negativity that shooting armies often cause. 

5)At the end of the day when I think about this hobby, it's about both players having fun. I always try to win, but I would never go so far as what you are suggesting. That's my take on it though, and you might not feel the same way about that. I certainly understand that people take this hobby much more seriously than I do, but given the type of fun lists you like to run, at least the ones you share, and the your mostly good takes on the many fun aspects of the army, it surprises me that you opt for the power play in this scenario and that you encourage others to do so too. 

1) personally this also the way I would play it, yet I wasn’t allowed to use it that way at the tournament when I asked the To.

to interpret the rules is certainly necessary to have a fun game, yet when you partake at an event where the to chooses to follow the rules as written, you kinda start looking for options to use your army in different ways as well.

3) it reallh isn’t.

There is an example that is similar to the rattling guns, well at least it was simialr, I’m not certain how much the army chanced And personally I’m not certain if it ever came up in your area.

The loonschmasash (goblins with big iron balls) had a rule where they would take d3 mortal wounds when rolling a double on their charge roll, yet when kragnos was taken, that charge roll would be changed to a 3d6 roll, thus no doubles can be rolled as described in the core rules and so the loonshmasas wouldn’t suffer any mortal wounds when having 2 dice or more of the same result.

personally as stupid as this sounds it is a thing in my area, although we only had like 2 gloomspite gitz player left after the win chance with that faction plumeted

As for the to, always ask him before hand.

I couldn’t go to a tournament without asking the to beforehand. It would be afterall too much. But personally I always have to ask beforehand anyways as almost literally all of my army is often converted from bitz and other stuff.

so I’ve never been using the official incredible expensive metal skaven model that look bad as well from gw, and that sometimes does need asking. As a conversion is in theory considered a proxie and not all proxie are allowed at a tournament.

5) well it is fun, till you’re using that one model that did exactly what you described in the last book and just does it wrong in this book.

while it is fun to have a chance of dealing more damage with the risk of dying (as it is the same thing in the lore) it really kinda gets booring if the mechanic has been changed so badly that the chances of dying are so extremely high with an overcharge that you just don’t do it.

Against my friends I usually opt to play the game as it should be, may be or as interpreted.

sadly having converted 13 and more rattling gun with love and a lot of time invested in them, I couldn’t really talk myself out of the idea of using them.

so the game went like this.

my friend knew my skaven and my tactics from the last edition book, and knew that I’d always tell the people to overcharge their rattlings.

and then he played against the new one.

he found them so incredible booring.

there was nothing to hope for.

he couldn’t hope for it dying as death was pretty much a guarantee with the new overcharge mechanic, and I well knew they would die anyways.

it was the most boring game he ever played against me he told me.

how’s that fun?

he still can’t believe how much the rattling gun weapon team got nerfed badly.

personally I am pissed about the changes to rattling gun weapon teams.

either they don’t work as intended as the rules as written were really badly written for the skaven book in total.

or that model when played as interpreded just doesn’t work as it is in the fluff or better said as it was in the last edition.

 

5) I’m currently torn between to parts of the game.

I enjoy the competitive side of the game very much and for I do like to play the game differently in some certain degrees.

although while many people in my area do like the idea of just taking the next best winning list, or combination that has seen the tournament around the world more then ince, I personallh still opt to use tactics list that never saw the battlefield in a competitive game. While on the other hand I do enjoy the game in a more narrative way or even just enjoy playing the game as inteded, especially or with people that just want a great evening or beer and bretzel day.

20 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I can't think of anyone in real life who has ever claimed that 2 of the dice being the same number within a 4D6 roll to not be a double.  I get the argument that the 'double' is described as a 2D6 roll in the book; HOWEVER, I view it and believe an equally viable argument is that any 2D6 within the 4D6 is the double, or any 2D6 within a group of multiple D6s that are the same number, is a double.  But if people want to go for it and try to get a favorable ruling, heck yeah, go for it!

The Doomwheel though is very clear IMHO.  If it gets Levitate cast on it (which never went off successfully when I tried it so far 😛 ) then it could pass over any unit it wants cuz it could Fly, and still do MW on a 2+ to each of those units.  If it doesn't get Levitate then it could only pass over models of 3 wounds or less, meaning it probably couldn't do squat vs Ogors except when shooting, charging, and piling in.

Well I think the problem here is more the wording towards a roll.

while we can say that the two dice making the 2d6 roll is also a part of a 4d6 roll, they are still different rolls.

If I’m making a 4d6 roll and let say I’m rolling a 14 (so 1,1,6,6)

it wouldn’t be the same thing if I made two 2d6 rolls.

something also very interesting is probably the case where if I made 2 seperate 2d6 roles, the chances of a double if we use the interpretation of the a double instead of the rules as weitten would still be lower then that of a single 4d6 dice😂

14 hours ago, RocketPropelledGrenade said:

FWIW (which is admittedly not a lot, as GW is not always consistent with templating) there is a mechanic in the new S2D book that is based on rolling a double as you describe it (specifically double 1s on 3d6) that does not use the word "double" at any point. Instead, it says "if the unmodified roll on 2 or more of the dice is 1." So, I could see an argument from that as well.

Yeah A friend of mine talked about it yesterday, and used it.

that heroic action is pretty good.

 

 

11 hours ago, fishwaffle2232 said:

I wonder if this is because they realise that the wording on doubles in the core book is open to exploit. Either way, it seems like it would be an easy fix, if this is indeed something that people are going to take advantage of. I mean it is stupid that they still get this stuff wrong

It is but this is gw, and you kinda feel how much love was taken away from the skaven.

3 hours ago, zombiepiratexxx said:

All they need to do is to add the change to the Double rule from the Core rules in an errata, it would take seconds to do and fix a lot. 

true…. Or they could in addition to that change the more more more warplead ability of the rattling gun weapon team to that of what it was with the second edition skaventide book. The ability was much more fun back then and less you die literally always

2 hours ago, DocKeule said:

The issue here is: The wording on the Ratling Gun Warscroll is older (i.e. has not been changed with the new battletome) than the edition 3 core rules. 2nd edition core rules never specified what "a double" is. They probably should just cut this one sentence since there would otherwise be no argument on what a double is in a role with more than one dice.

But that's GW. They are just bad a writing rules with no lose ends and don't get me started at lore...

No the rattling gun ability did however change significantly.

the old rattling gun weapon team told you to make a 2d6 roll and to double the result, if you used more more warplead.

while the new one went for a 4d6 roll instead.

in both ways if you use the interpretation of what it should be and or how it is written, the rattling gun more more more warplead ability from the second edition skaventide book would be in any and all way better written as the mew one.

so yeah while gw canmt wirte rules, the chrrent skaven book feels like as as if it was written once by a guy who doesn’t like the rats at all, thrown into a dark room left there to sit for 2years. And then brought it back for the third edition knowing it was badly written.

but not bothered to really take another look i to the book.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Skreech Verminking

[Lord Krungharr]

Got my ninjas primed today.  Next game is this:

 

Idea being to get in their faces and/or on objectives quickly from the start.  I got all the Night Runners real cheap so figured I give them a try.  Pregame moves helped during my vacation in Bonesplitterz country....the Gutter Runners deepstrike and hopefully can get into a winnable combat with the free charge reroll from the theoretical Triumph.  Deceiver does what he does, and maybe get some extra plink-plinks in with the run n shoot from all the Night Runners and Acolytes; meanwhile the Doomwheel HOPEFULLY gets to Levitate and go twice a good 4D6" roll causing mayhem even before shooting, and then the other one helps it out with more-more warp bolts...and not die.  Vermintide as a medicore speedbump somewhere that isn't near me.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Lord Krungharr